LD Aron Kiviharju - IFK Helsinki, Liiga (2024, 122nd, MIN) Part2

[Albatros]

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/minne...ll-play-in-liiga-despite-being-drafted-in-chl
Hopefully this decision won't bite Kiviharju and Minnesota wild straight into ass

It's not their decision to start with, HIFK would have to release him if he was to play somewhere else next season and why would they.

 

[bigdog16]

The entire hockey community recognized Kiviharju as a world-class player because he was. Kiviharju has been injured two seasons in the last 4 years.

The entire hockey community also recognized Kakko as No. 2 in 2019 and more NHL Ready than Hughes in 2019.

Not forbidden to talk about Maccelli (top 10 2019 redraft) and Helenius (who replaced Kiviharju in the top 15 2024).

Yes there are Finns who are declining. But there are Finns who are coming up.

Harassing a guy for 5 years because this user thought Kakko could be drafted before Hughes is pathetic.

Kiviharju’s thread was started was he was 10 and people were claiming he was the best prospect on earth. If anything another learning experience to not harp on 10-14 year olds.

Regarding Kakko thats not what happened. A large Finnish community harassed a couple of us on here when we stuck to our guns that Hughes was a better player than Kakko. And most of those harassing Fins are nowhere to be found.

Overall the Fins on here have a weird sense of entitlement and need for attention. I dont get it

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Kiviharju’s thread was started was he was 10 and people were claiming he was the best prospect on earth. If anything another learning experience to not harp on 10-14 year olds.

Regarding Kakko thats not what happened. A large Finnish community harassed a couple of us on here when we stuck to our guns that Hughes was a better player than Kakko. And most of those harassing Fins are nowhere to be found.

Overall the Fins on here have a weird sense of entitlement and need for attention. I dont get it

He was and until he was 15 and at 16 he was still top 3. It was fascinating to follow the evolution of a child prodigy. Two injuries, a lack of speed and size will prevent him from playing in the NHL but he will have a professional career in the major European leagues. It's not nothing either.

The most enjoyable thing is to be magnanimous. Don't have a confrontational attitude on Finnish player topics.

Finland is the last top 8 nation not to have had a No. 1 draft. 3 guys n°2 shortly before 2019. It can create passions, frustrations.

In a neutral way, I too wondered if Kakko was better than Hughes. Because Hughes could not stand on the ice at WC 2019 while Kakko was already performing very well. In this competition, Kakko was better than Hughes.

I had Hughes ahead of Kakko because center versus winger and because experts predicted that with strengthening Hughes would reach a higher ceiling but I wondered. There was a certain legitimacy in seeing Kakko as No. 1.

 

[bigdog16]

He was and until he was 15 and at 16 he was still top 3. It was fascinating to follow the evolution of a child prodigy. Two injuries, a lack of speed and size will prevent him from playing in the NHL but he will have a professional career in the major European leagues. It's not nothing either.

The most enjoyable thing is to be magnanimous. Don't have a confrontational attitude on Finnish player topics.

Finland is the last top 8 nation not to have had a No. 1 draft. 3 guys n°2 shortly before 2019. It can create passions, frustrations.

In a neutral way, I too wondered if Kakko was better than Hughes. Because Hughes could not stand on the ice at WC 2019 while Kakko was already performing very well. In this competition, Kakko was better than Hughes.

I had Hughes ahead of Kakko because center versus winger and because experts predicted that with strengthening Hughes would reach a higher ceiling but I wondered. There was a certain legitimacy in seeing Kakko as No. 1.

I believe your post shows two valuable aspects that should be followed:
1. A players body of work from the ages of 10-15 is pointless
2. You cannot base decisions on small sample sizes

 

[FinPanda]

Kiviharju’s thread was started was he was 10 and people were claiming he was the best prospect on earth. If anything another learning experience to not harp on 10-14 year olds.

Regarding Kakko thats not what happened. A large Finnish community harassed a couple of us on here when we stuck to our guns that Hughes was a better player than Kakko. And most of those harassing Fins are nowhere to be found.

Overall the Fins on here have a weird sense of entitlement and need for attention. I dont get it

You really can't put us all in the same box. I feel like you are bringing the hate towards Finns to threads about any Finnish players/prospects. Its a shame.

 

[bigdog16]

You really can't put us all in the same box. I feel like you are bringing the hate towards Finns to threads about any Finnish players/prospects. Its a shame.

Because its an ongoing thing.

I said Kiviharju’s skating was poor 2-3 years ago before he even got hurt and I got blasted on here.

I said Hughes was still a way better prospect and player than Kakko and got blasted on here.

I said let’s hold off on Lambert when Fins had him penciled as a definite top 3 pick, got blasted on here.

Who’s next?

 

[FinPanda]

Because its an ongoing thing.

I said Kiviharju’s skating was poor 2-3 years ago before he even got hurt and I got blasted on here.

I said Hughes was still a way better prospect and player than Kakko and got blasted on here.

I said let’s hold off on Lambert when Fins had him penciled as a definite top 3 pick, got blasted on here.

Who’s next?

I doubt it's no one for now since we don't have many prospects to be excited about right now.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Because its an ongoing thing.

I said Kiviharju’s skating was poor 2-3 years ago before he even got hurt and I got blasted on here.

I said Hughes was still a way better prospect and player than Kakko and got blasted on here.

I said let’s hold off on Lambert when Fins had him penciled as a definite top 3 pick, got blasted on here.

Who’s next?

Konsta Helenius in front of all americans forwards ?

Finland 18 players drafted for 5 million inhabitants
USA 37 players drafted for 335 million inhabitants

Finland is just the equivalent of a rural American state. If USA were divided into states, none would reach the level of Finland.

This country must be respected. The hockey level of this nation is incredible.

Furthermore, Lambert comes back very strong. 9th in my current 2022 redraft.

 

[Wats]

This guy went 2nd/3rd round in most dynasty/keeper leagues. Like with Lane Hutson, might end up one of those times where the common man is right.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I believe your post shows two valuable aspects that should be followed:
1. A players body of work from the ages of 10-15 is pointless
2. You cannot base decisions on small sample sizes

1. What do Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby and McDavid all have in common?

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

1. What do Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby and McDavid all have in common?

The best among the seniors were the best children. It is obvious.

 

[bigdog16]

Konsta Helenius in front of all americans forwards ?

Finland 18 players drafted for 5 million inhabitants
USA 37 players drafted for 335 million inhabitants

Finland is just the equivalent of a rural American state. If USA were divided into states, none would reach the level of Finland.

This country must be respected. The hockey level of this nation is incredible.

Furthermore, Lambert comes back very strong. 9th in my current 2022 redraft.

What does Helenius have to do with this discussion at all? Were talking about overhyped prospects. Also, population has quite literally nothing to do with this argument. But while were on the topic the best athletes in America certainly are not playing ice hockey. Same can’t be said for Finland.

1. What do Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby and McDavid all have in common?

So you took 5 of the GOATS and major outliers to make your point. Do you want me to make a laundry list of players that didn’t pan out after they were hyped at young ages? Itd be 20 pages long. Kiviharju was not even in sniffing distance of those players. The main difference that those 5 could skate and Kiviharju couldn’t

 

[Leafshater67]

Seems like the perfect player to play in the CHL this upcoming year tbh.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

What does Helenius have to do with this discussion at all? Were talking about overhyped prospects. Also, population has quite literally nothing to do with this argument. But while were on the topic the best athletes in America certainly are not playing ice hockey. Same can’t be said for Finland.


So you took 5 of the GOATS and major outliers to make your point. Do you want me to make a laundry list of players that didn’t pan out after they were hyped at young ages? Itd be 20 pages long. Kiviharju was not even in sniffing distance of those players. The main difference that those 5 could skate and Kiviharju couldn’t

Except that Kiviharju, Kakko and Lambert were not overrated. Kiviharju was a phenomenon from 10 to 14 years old and was very advanced until 16 years old. A serious injury at 14, another at 17... You couldn't have predicted that.

Kiviharju was the best, Kakko was a huge No.2 who challenged Hughes, Lambert was top 3 in 2020/1. Things have evolved sportingly, as for Eiserman, Wright, etc...

520,000 licensees in the USA, 75,000 in Finland. The best athletes in the USA can't do anything in a sport like hockey... JJ Watt and Rob Gronkowski played hockey, they were bad.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

What does Helenius have to do with this discussion at all? Were talking about overhyped prospects. Also, population has quite literally nothing to do with this argument. But while were on the topic the best athletes in America certainly are not playing ice hockey. Same can’t be said for Finland.


So you took 5 of the GOATS and major outliers to make your point. Do you want me to make a laundry list of players that didn’t pan out after they were hyped at young ages? Itd be 20 pages long. Kiviharju was not even in sniffing distance of those players. The main difference that those 5 could skate and Kiviharju couldn’t

We're looking through opposite ends of a telescope. It isn't just 5 of the Goats, make a list of say the 25, or 50 or 100 all time greats. Most, probably almost all, were well known if not outright prodigies before age 15.
If you want to know who the Next One is, you will know by the time they're 14.

 

[bigdog16]

Except that Kiviharju, Kakko and Lambert were not overrated. Kiviharju was a phenomenon from 10 to 14 years old and was very advanced until 16 years old. A serious injury at 14, another at 17... You couldn't have predicted that.

Kiviharju was the best, Kakko was a huge No.2 who challenged Hughes, Lambert was top 3 in 2020/1. Things have evolved sportingly, as for Eiserman, Wright, etc...

520,000 licensees in the USA, 75,000 in Finland. The best athletes in the USA can't do anything in a sport like hockey... JJ Watt and Rob Gronkowski played hockey, they were bad.

You’ll never know because they didn’t dedicate their lives to hockey. But I would argue just about every single NBA player and maybe 95% of NFL players are better athletes than just about every NHL player. Its not close whatsoever

We're looking through opposite ends of a telescope. It isn't just 5 of the Goats, make a list of say the 25, or 50 or 100 all time greats. Most, probably almost all, were well known if not outright prodigies before age 15.
If you want to know who the Next One is, you will know by the time they're 14.

100 all time greats? Some of them weren’t even drafted. Doubt they were prodigies at age 14 lol

 

[Obvious Fabertism]

Konsta Helenius in front of all americans forwards ?

Finland 18 players drafted for 5 million inhabitants
USA 37 players drafted for 335 million inhabitants

Finland is just the equivalent of a rural American state. If USA were divided into states, none would reach the level of Finland.

This country must be respected. The hockey level of this nation is incredible.

Furthermore, Lambert comes back very strong. 9th in my current 2022 redraft.

Not to take much away from a generally good post, but Minnesota has more active NHLers than Finland with almost the same population.

 

[Albatros]

Team Finland would destroy Team Minnesota though, a lot of fringe NHLers that would be in Europe if they were Finns.

 

[wetcoast]

Team Finland would destroy Team Minnesota though, a lot of fringe NHLers that would be in Europe if they were Finns.

Sure it might look that way on paper but Minnesota is really deep on the back end but really lags behind Finland centers bigtime.

 

[Albatros]

Something along these lines presumably:

Hintz-Barkov-Rantanen
Maccelli-Aho-Laine
Lehkonen-Lundell-Teräväinen
Haula-Granlund-Kakko

Lindell-Heiskanen
Mikkola-Jokiharju
Välimäki-Hakanpää

Saros
Luukkonen

vs.

Mittelstadt-Nelson-Boeser
Lee-Novak-Brink
Smith-Bjugstad-Okposo
Cates-Poehling-Anderson

Skjei-Faber
Miller-Faulk
Leddy-McDonagh

Lindgren
Oettinger

 

[Jersey Fan 12]

What does this have to do with Kiviharju?

An interesting topic for another thread but doesn't tell much about him as a player or his progress heading into 2024-25.

 

[57special]

Not to take much away from a generally good post, but Minnesota has more active NHLers than Finland with almost the same population.

ehh... it's the 11th province of Canada...

 

[teravaineSAROS]

Kiviharju’s thread was started was he was 10 and people were claiming he was the best prospect on earth. If anything another learning experience to not harp on 10-14 year olds.

Regarding Kakko thats not what happened. A large Finnish community harassed a couple of us on here when we stuck to our guns that Hughes was a better player than Kakko. And most of those harassing Fins are nowhere to be found.

Overall the Fins on here have a weird sense of entitlement and need for attention. I dont get it

It's a very loud but small minority of fans that do that and it's only really prevalent on HfBoards as far as I know.

Kakko had a lot of hype after the WHC's but with Kiviharju I and a majority of Finns didn't buy into the hype and we debated Ijuka on it quite a bit (I did think he'd be a first rounder though).

It's weird because now we have people wasting their energy hating on Finns because a few of them overhype every prospect so it just becomes a lose-lose situation for everybody. I stopped commenting on Finnish prospects because it's just gotten so toxic both ways.

 

[Jersey Fan 12]

Not to take much away from a generally good post, but Minnesota has more active NHLers than Finland with almost the same population.

Hate diving into this mess. But as a friend in Finland explained 20 years ago the NHL does not sign European players to non-scoring supplementary roles. Not much has changed since 2006 in that respect.

 

[jonu]

I said Kiviharju’s skating was poor 2-3 years ago before he even got hurt and I got blasted on here.

After skimming the Aron part 1 thread to see what this whole nonsense argument stupidness is about, I think your first comment in the Kiviharju thread was "Great prospect but an awkward skater. Really good edges but short strides. Plenty of time to work the kinks out" in October 21, 2021. That is a year after he suffered a knee injury, but no one really blasted you except ijuka, who is probably better left ignored. (Just bringing receipts).

In 2022 pretty much everyone but ijuka accepted that his skating speed and physical development is the thing holding him back, but everyone including you still considered him a top prospect.

No need to really compartmentalize all Finns to the crazy bin because of a loud minority. Every fanbase on this board has the annoying loud minority, Finns just happen to be easier to notice because they tend to be found where there are Finnish players involved.

Its like how goalie mistakes are easier to notice because the spotlight is more targeted there compared to the 5 other players on the ice.


Aron seems to have the toolbox, what we need now is for Aron to have healthy seasons to successfully close the gap that was made with all the time lost to injuries.