LD Aron Kiviharju - IFK Helsinki, Liiga (2024, 122nd, MIN) Part2

[OKR]

Not to take much away from a generally good post, but Minnesota has more active NHLers than Finland with almost the same population.

Because it doesn’t make sense for NHL teams to sign AHL-NHL tweeners from Europe, and it doesn’t make sense for European players to come to N-A to play that role, when they can make the same money, play bigger role and be way more comfortable in Europe’s top league.

 

[ChicagoBullsFan]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1823706141097853160

 

[Svedu]

Even if he can become really good with the right environment and good luck etc... I'm not impressed by his defending.
Looks very weak on his skates and the stop-go ability and intensity especially concerns me the most.
Everyone are yapping about size here, size there. That's secondary at this point. The skating and being able to follow your opponent is crucial to even stand a chance of making it. I mean no one likes a big D with bad mobility either so yeah, he has a long road in front of him. Not making the pressure smaller after his words to Guerin. But at the end of the day? I like that confidence, he will still need it no matter what.

Let's just hope the kid stays healthy these upcoming years because he needs at least 2 years of working hard on his skating imho.

Off topic, I still think it's hilarious when some I*iots in here seem like they want this kid to fail and what is worse? When they always insist on crying about size. Like everything would be black or white.
I've seen Winnipeg Jets give the opportunity to other bigger D's than Heinola through the years with half or less of his high end talent and it hasn't been any kind of success when doing so. But do you see anyone complain about that? I wonder how some people never have the ability to twist and turn things around.
I mean it's not like EK65, Fox or Hughes are huge? Sure two of them are good skaters but it's not like it ever was Fox strength? I'm not stating that Kiviharju will be any where near Fox. I'm just sick and tired of this crying about size like it would be everything.
Benak, another prospect, is a lot better than many other prospects out there with bigger size. I wouldn't mind my Flyers pick him before another typical NA big guy pick that doesn't have anything more in him then becoming a bottom 6 at best.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Even if he can become really good with the right environment and good luck etc... I'm not impressed by his defending.

The great thing about defending is that it can be easily learned / taught, as long as the player is willing!

 

[ijuka]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1823706141097853160

Hopefully he can get back to form. I mean that's fine in terms of results but. All of that's rather timid, and his skating definitely isn't there.

I really really am feeling like he should be playing in CHL instead of Liiga. If it's another season of him playing like this without making any real plays, after missing almost two entire season already...

I really hope this doesn't ruin his development.

I just can't help but think like, what would have happened with Matias Maccelli's development if he had played Liiga from 18-19? I think those 2 years in USHL were important for him, which is why he was able to become who he is without losing his play style, because he didn't have to play "survival hockey."

But Kiviharju throughout Liiga has just played survival hockey, I don't think it's good. Hopefully this season goes well, but yeah. I still think CHL would be better.

 

[57special]

The great thing about defending is that it can be easily learned / taught, as long as the player is willing!

Don't agree. People say that all the time, yet there is always a crying need for good defenders in the NHL. What guys like Slavin and Brodin do is really hard, or we'd have a league full of them.

Playing defense against some guy in Liiga is one thing. Quite another to defend the speed of Mackinnon/ McDavid, the strength of a Tkachuk, or the moves and smarts of a Kucherov, among many others.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Don't agree. People say that all the time, yet there is always a crying need for good defenders in the NHL. What guys like Slavin and Brodin do is really hard, or we'd have a league full of them.

You're listing some of the top tier defenders. Why? I'm not claiming that it's easy to teach someone to become a Slavin level defender. I'm saying that a young Dman struggling with defense is not unheard of, and they do get better.

I'd be more worried about his skating, which looks to have taken a step back. I hope he can recover.

 

[Peasy]

The great thing about defending is that it can be easily learned / taught, as long as the player is willing!

Being able to learn it is one thing. Its another completely different thing to take what you learned and apply it to live games and in real time.

Sometimes people just wont be able to process what they should be doing on defense quick enough in game.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Being able to learn it is one thing. Its another completely different thing to take what you learned and apply it to live games and in real time.

Sometimes people just wont be able to process what they should be doing on defense quick enough in game.

When we discuss a professional hockey player learning something, I would assume that includes being able to execute it. Otherwise they haven't really learned much, have they?

 

[Albatros]

Don't agree. People say that all the time, yet there is always a crying need for good defenders in the NHL. What guys like Slavin and Brodin do is really hard, or we'd have a league full of them.

Playing defense against some guy in Liiga is one thing. Quite another to defend the speed of Mackinnon/ McDavid, the strength of a Tkachuk, or the moves and smarts of a Kucherov, among many others.

OR like Rafalski with Stevens he could simply play with a Brodin and be just fine.

 

[ijuka]

Don't agree. People say that all the time, yet there is always a crying need for good defenders in the NHL. What guys like Slavin and Brodin do is really hard, or we'd have a league full of them.

Playing defense against some guy in Liiga is one thing. Quite another to defend the speed of Mackinnon/ McDavid, the strength of a Tkachuk, or the moves and smarts of a Kucherov, among many others.

You can learn defense after offense. Offense takes priority. Offense also is what teams pay for.

Oh, also. You look at a guy like Slavin and his defensive contributions. They actually aren't that great. His contributions are actually almost purely offensive.

So, the fact that you mentioned him as one of these defensive stalwarts even though his contributions are mainly offensive, not defensive, just goes to show what the issue with this thought process is. Defensively, he was one of the worse defenders on Hurricanes last season.

 

[Peasy]

You can learn defense after offense. Offense takes priority. Offense also is what teams pay for.

Oh, also. You look at a guy like Slavin and his defensive contributions. They actually aren't that great. His contributions are actually almost purely offensive.

So, the fact that you mentioned him as one of these defensive stalwarts even though his contributions are mainly offensive, not defensive, just goes to show what the issue with this thought process is. Defensively, he was one of the worse defenders on Hurricanes last season.

Lol...

Got dudes like Matt Roy making nearly 6m but yeah teams dont pay for defence.

 

[ijuka]

Lol...

Got dudes like Matt Roy making nearly 6m but yeah teams dont pay for defence.

Another player with far greater offensive than defensive contributions isn't very strong for your argument.

 

[bigdog16]

You can learn defense after offense. Offense takes priority. Offense also is what teams pay for.

Oh, also. You look at a guy like Slavin and his defensive contributions. They actually aren't that great. His contributions are actually almost purely offensive.

So, the fact that you mentioned him as one of these defensive stalwarts even though his contributions are mainly offensive, not defensive, just goes to show what the issue with this thought process is. Defensively, he was one of the worse defenders on Hurricanes last season.

Tony DeAngelo completely debunks this argument.

 

[Peasy]

Another player with far greater offensive than defensive contributions isn't very strong for your argument.

Yes, I am sure teams are giving him that money for his offensive contributions and not his defensive ones

Alex Vlasic just got 4m+ off his ELC. Samuelsson got 4m+ off his ELC. I'm sure all these players are getting paid for their offensive contributions too and not their defensive ones though.

 

[57special]

You're listing some of the top tier defenders. Why? I'm not claiming that it's easy to teach someone to become a Slavin level defender. I'm saying that a young Dman struggling with defense is not unheard of, and they do get better.

I'd be more worried about his skating, which looks to have taken a step back. I hope he can recover.

Wjhat you said is that defense can be easily learned/taught, yet we see players come into the league sucking at defense, and continue to suck at it. Why, if it's so easy to learn?

Oh, and part of the recipe for good D is having good skating, especially in today's NHL where it is faster than ever, obstruction is called, and open ice hits hits are severely scrutinized.

The other nice quality for a defender to have is length and heft. W/o length, skating, bulk, and defensive awareness, Kiviharju will have an uphill battle to be a NHL'er.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Wjhat you said is that defense can be easily learned/taught, yet we see players come into the league sucking at defense, and continue to suck at it. Why, if it's so easy to learn?

I think we see more players come into the league and improve on it as they grow up. Some people are not willing / do not care enough, which was the caveat I included in my original message. I really believe that if you're an NHL level player (or any other league) but continue to suck at defense, that is an attitude problem, not a skill issue. And to make very sure you understand what I'm saying, I am talking about adequate level of defensive play, not Jacob Slavin, not Drew Doughty, not Bergeron.

Am I to understand that you disagree with me and believe that Kiviharju can infact not learn to defend better? Or are you just being a contrarian for the sake of it?

 

[teravaineSAROS]

I guess what I've learned from this is that he doesn't need to improve his defense as long as he can follow the path of other offensive defensemen such as Slavin and Matt Roy?

While I personally do think he's more of a Brännström than a Spurgeon or Fox, he does have some hockey IQ and determination that could lead to him becoming a lot better defensively but he needs to improve his skating and strength.

What Spurgeon's doing is extremely difficult though and he does not get enough praise IMO.

 

[Svedu]

How has he been looking so far for HIFK? Should he play with juniors?

 

[ChicagoBullsFan]

How has he been looking so far for HIFK? Should he play with juniors?

No idea how Kiviharju has performed etc in pre-season.
But last friday's TV game vs Kiekko-Espoo he was pretty invisible.
I will put more attention on Kiviharju in Tappara game this friday that's TV game also.

In my opinion CHL should've been / should still be
THE league for Kiviharju if he truly is serious with his NHL dream.

 

[Leafshater67]

He should go play major junior. He needs to focus on getting stronger and faster and I think NA would be the best place for that, against kids his own age.

His physical attributes are his biggest issue but he can absolutely get bigger and stronger. I mean it’s not like he was a 1st round pick, despite the second thread having to be made on him.

It’s realistic that he may never make it but I certainly wouldn’t count him out yet. He’s skilled and young. He will absolutely get bigger and faster if he wants to.

 

[DoingItCoolKiwi]

He has played 11, 13 and 14 mins in the first three games. Huge mistake from him to stay in Liiga.

 

[57special]

You can learn defense after offense. Offense takes priority. Offense also is what teams pay for.

Oh, also. You look at a guy like Slavin and his defensive contributions. They actually aren't that great. His contributions are actually almost purely offensive.

So, the fact that you mentioned him as one of these defensive stalwarts even though his contributions are mainly offensive, not defensive, just goes to show what the issue with this thought process is. Defensively, he was one of the worse defenders on Hurricanes last season.

Heh?

 

[ChicagoBullsFan]

He should go play major junior. He needs to focus on getting stronger and faster and I think NA would be the best place for that, against kids his own age.

His physical attributes are his biggest issue but he can absolutely get bigger and stronger. I mean it’s not like he was a 1st round pick, despite the second thread having to be made on him.

It’s realistic that he may never make it but I certainly wouldn’t count him out yet. He’s skilled and young. He will absolutely get bigger and faster if he wants to.

I don't know does Moncton have open roster spot for Kiviharju.
But thanks to his age Kiviharju is eligible to play HIFK's A juniors ( U20 team )
so maybe it would be best for Kiviharju to go HIFK's U20 team and play there.

Kiviharju has clear and big lacks in skating and physicality that's not changed at all.
But i'm not inner circle member in HIFK so i don't know what's HIFK's plan with Kiviharju.

 

[ChicagoBullsFan]

He has played 11, 13 and 14 mins in the first three games. Huge mistake from him to stay in Liiga.

It was Minnesota's idea to let Kiviharju stay in HIFK instead of bringing him to CHL and Moncton.
I knew that decision will fail miserably when it was made.
But it's too late whine and cry now.