Prospect Info: Lassi Thomson, Defence, 19th Overall

[Sens of Anarchy]

Him leaving when the NHL resumed had nothing to do with him not getting minutes for them.

They lost their #1 forward and #1 goalie for the same reasons, and they still got the ice time they deserved.

and their #1D as well

 

[JD1]

I wasn't big into amateur scouting back in 2012.

My god Hale , you've come along way in a short period of time

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

That's not true about Mika at all, he always showed he had good hockey iq.

It’s very true. I’m not getting into this argument again. And I didn’t agree with it. So many people compared him to guys like Fisher it wasn’t even funny. There were legit concerns from people who said he couldn’t handle the puck well and could only shoot it. It’s not the same degree but people were legit writing him off because of his lack of IQ and confidence level

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

Subban has been a #1D and QBed an NHL PP... He drove offense... yes he hits some and has a good shot .. but very complimentary

It’s stylistic, not what I think he’ll become. Subban doesn’t drive offense.

 

[BondraTime]

It’s stylistic, not what I think he’ll become. Subban doesn’t drive offense.

Subban absolutely drove offense. He doesn't now, but absolutely did in his prime

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

Subban absolutely drove offense. He doesn't now, but absolutely did in his prime

Yes exactly, at no point did I see he didn’t.

 

[Matsens15]

Meh.. I got a feeling the sens will package him in a deal with pick/prospects for a established player at some point.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Subban has been a #1D and QBed an NHL PP... He drove offense... yes he hits some and has a good shot .. but very complimentary

It’s stylistic, not what I think he’ll become. Subban doesn’t drive offense.

Yes exactly, at no point did I see he didn’t.

What? So I say he drove offense ; to which you reply Subban doesn't drive offense; and then you say you didn't... lol Anyway your boy Lassi couldn't carry Subban's jock strap ..even the Subban that played through back injury when his play declined notably. I'm fairly confident when you made you said Thomson played like Subban you did not mean , the declined version. Even stylistically not even close

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

What? So I say he drove offense ; to which you reply Subban doesn't drive offense; and then you say you didn't... lol Anyway your boy Lassi couldn't carry Subban's jock strap ..even the Subban that played through back injury when his play declined notably. I'm fairly confident when you made you said Thomson played like Subban you did not mean , the declined version. Even stylistically not even close

I said he doesn't drive offense, I never said he never has driven offense. So you were correct in your original statement. Stylistically they are similar, yes. If you don't agree then fine, no need to get into attacking mode like you always do.

Lassi isn't my boy. He's like 10-12 on our list in my opinion. He's going to be much better in North America after developing for a few years, in my opinion.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I said he doesn't drive offense, I never said he never has driven offense. So you were correct in your original statement. Stylistically they are similar, yes. If you don't agree then fine, no need to get into attacking mode like you always do.

Lassi isn't my boy. He's like 10-12 on our list in my opinion. He's going to be much better in North America after developing for a few years, in my opinion.

Whatever.. you replied to me saying he drove offense ; saying he doesn't drive offense. Just pointing it out. Not attacking you lol

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

Whatever.. you replied to me saying he drove offense ; saying he doesn't drive offense.

Cool. Have a good one...

 

[Xspyrit]

I concur with all of this.



I almost never trust written summaries on players skills and attributes, unless they come from truly reputable sources (top scouting services).

Most of the time they are described in reference to their skills at the level they are playing at instead of projecting their skills at the NHL level.

I wasn't big into amateur scouting back in 2012 but if I had watched Ceci extensively in his draft year I'd like to think there were plenty of red flags about his IQ. That's not something that you can hide effectively, even at lower levels.

Most people are talking about these skills for the level the players are currently playing because projecting how these skills will develop and transfer while graduating to higher levels is very hard and almost impossible to do. How many players can you really project on draft day? People still project them and in the end we are right, wrong or close.

I mean, is Roby Jarventie going to be 40 goals scorer 1st liner? 25 goals 2nd liner? 15-20 goals 3rd liner? Or just not a NHL player? He looks very promising already but who knows down the road? After the WJC, I thought Andre Petersson was going to be a top-6 forward at the NHL level, I also thought Mike Hoffman would be a cup-of-coffee player even though I had him close here in Quebec.

It wasn't really just the 2 sources I quoted, I don't remember reading even once anybody questionning Ceci's hockey IQ. There wasn't any red flag. Check a few more

https://thehockeywriters.com/cody-c...t-prospect-profile-defending-nations-capital/

Strengths:

*See “THW Close-Up” section above.
– Strong hockey sense
– Good mobility
– Solid positioning
– Ideal size
– Hard accurate shot
– Confident

Corey Pronman – ESPN and Hockey Prospectus Draft Writer :

Ceci is a very sound all-around defenseman who doesn’t have a standout skill other than his hockey sense, but he does everything else at a fine level which in the big picture makes for a very good defenseman. He’s fluid, but not extremely fast but he really gets around in all directions well, activates efficiently off the point, and looks technically sound in his movements. Ceci is a plus thinker who sees the ice very well, can make good split second decisions, and is able to quarter back the power play.


THW Ranking (May): 11th

Also 6th among Eurpean skaters

North American Skaters Final Rankings | NHL.com - 2012 NHL Draft

 

[armani]

Him leaving when the NHL resumed had nothing to do with him not getting minutes for them.

They lost their #1 forward and #1 goalie for the same reasons, and they still got the ice time they deserved.

No debate that he didn't perform well, while those other guys were top performers, who eat more minutes as such. My point is that he is a longer term project and not yet a lost cause. He already possesses a heavy shot from the point, good size, and skating. His offence also disappeared at Ilves this season, and he will get more slack to develop under Troy.

 

[Xspyrit]

There wasn't one scout back in 2009 who would've taken the 5'9 Ellis over the 6'5 Cowen. Cowen looked like a sure fire two way monster on the blueline. Yes, in hindsight, Cowen did not have what it took and Ellis absolutely did. Unpredictability is the name of the game when it comes to drafting raw 18 year old hockey players.

Yeah, Cowen was viewed as a top-5, even top-3 before his draft year injury. We were "lucky" that he fell to us, but in the end not lucky. It was :

Hedman
Cowen
OEL
Kulikov
Ellis

There wasn't as many "sources" doing pre-draft rankings back then. It was easier to see a "concensus" (even if it doesn't really exist). Only Tavares at 1st OA was the concensus.

Like Bevans said, teams are also more wary of drafting projects like Cowen too high. It's a bit like drafting goalies too high. You want them too but when you have a high end pick you have to go with players even harder to find (Tkachuk, Stuetzle, Sanderson)

Just in 10 years, scouting/drafting has evolved a lot. Teams are much less likely to make mistakes in the top-10 of a draft. It's like they realized how much a top-10 draft pick is worth (asset + $$$)

Ellis: 89P in 57GP
Cowen: 21P in 48GP

More importantly than production, Ellis was one of the smarter D to come around in a long time, while Cowen was one of the lowest IQ players.

I can't tell you I would have had Ellis over Cowen in 2009, as I wasn't watching prospects much back then, but it should have been the consensus that Ellis was the better prospect.

That's hindsight. Believe it or not, I was following the NHL even more hardcore than today. Sure the tools and information spread weren't as great as today but scouts/hockey people were pretty high on Cowen in general. Another team is lucky that he injured himself because he would have went higher if not.

I was on the floor in Montreal for that 2009 draft. I wanted Paajarvi because I never thought Cowen would still be there at 9th.

https://thehockeywriters.com/ottawa-senators-2009-draft-silfverber-lehner-hoffman/

At one point, the NHL’s Central Scouting Service ranked him as the third-best North American player, but by the final rankings, he’d slipped down to ninth.

The Hockey News' 2009 Draft Prospect Rankings

Ranked 5th in the list above.

More links :

Scouting report: Jared Cowen
The Draft Board: Jared Cowen

Another Pre-Draft Scouting Report:

“Cowen is a force to be reckoned with based on his size, strength and skill package. In the defensive zone he simply dominated junior-aged players with his physical attributes and excellent positioning. The mobility has returned and he makes good decisions with the puck in his own end. On the offensive end he has good instincts and will rush the puck when the opportunity presents itself. He will need to continue working on his puck-handling at the point to be a complete two-way defenseman. The Senators management is impressed with his maturity, commitment and work ethic.”

The fact that it wasn't the case is why I put little faith into the consensus rankings of "professional" scouting staffs

Not sure I am following here. What are you basing yourself on when you say we "reached" for a pick? Because you make that kind of comment quite often.

 

[BondraTime]

No debate that he didn't perform well, while those other guys were top performers, who eat more minutes as such. My point is that he is a longer term project and not yet a lost cause. He already possesses a heavy shot from the point, good size, and skating. His offence also disappeared at Ilves this season, and he will get more slack to develop under Troy.

He will definitely be given the benefit of the doubt early, mostly in part due to his draft capital, but I would be surprised if he wasn't a healthy scratch at times in the season, Mann has shown already he will sit our prospects for non prospects.

Every time I've watched him this year he seems 3 seconds behind every decision, not sure a smaller rink with professional men is going to help that.

I'm wrong many, many times, I'm hoping this is another one to add to the list, but everything I've seen so far leads to disappointment. He's not playing against kids anymore, he can't get by on his tools anymore to mask the struggles with his decision making

 

[Xspyrit]

The fact that he was ranked that high despite having zero hockey IQ, little talent and just coming off of a major injury, says all you need to know about how stupid "professional" NHL scouts can be when projecting players based strictly on tools.

It's how a normally excellent Sens scouting staff could make the mistake of taking Cowen, Ceci and Lassi in the 1st round. Got blinded by their size, skating and shooting, but forgot to account for skill and smarts - the two most important attributes a D needs to be successful at the NHL level.

Again, it's a comment purely based on hindsight. You said yourself that you weren't really following prospects back then (IIRC you were quite young). That's really not how Cowen was viewed. People were seeing him as a future Derian Hatcher or Adam Foote.

And when you say "normally excellent Sens scouting staff", in 2009 they were in place for only their 2nd draft as Murray had to rebuild it entirely after taking over from Muckler. Still, their first 2 drafts were extremely successful and even the 3rd as they didn't have many picks, they managed to find Mark Stone in the 6th round.

Also, Cowen would have ended as a much better result if he didn't have so many injuries derailing his development and mobility. A "lack of hockey sense" can be magnified with a loss of mobility.

Finally, they didn't forget to account for skill and smarts, it's just not that easy to project at the junior level. Will the player continue to progress enough to transfer his "play" to the highest level? It's really not as black and white as you seem to think. Case in point : Cody Ceci. You say the same thing but everywhere people were praising his hockey sense.

That's not true about Mika at all, he always showed he had good hockey iq.

Well maybe you weren't on this board before 2015. There was a large contingent of posters saying exactly what FormentonTheFuture was saying "All tools, no toolbox", word for word.

In Cowen and Ceci's case, I don't think it came before they started struggling. So hindsight as always. Anyway, I know what I have seen over the years on this forum and what the trends are.

It’s very true. I’m not getting into this argument again. And I didn’t agree with it. So many people compared him to guys like Fisher it wasn’t even funny. There were legit concerns from people who said he couldn’t handle the puck well and could only shoot it. It’s not the same degree but people were legit writing him off because of his lack of IQ and confidence level

So you had another account back then? Because I remember these conversations. I even said back then that it reminded me of Fisher vs Vermette debates. Was it Zibanejad vs Spezza or vs Turris? Can't remember

 

[aragorn]

IMO Ottawa's future left side on defence is set with Chabot, Sanderson & Kleven, but the right side is unclear at this point. I think JBD will be a future RD defenceman on the Sens & Lassi, Brannstrom & Guennette most likely will fight it out for a top 2 RD pairing spot.

If Ottawa has the opportunity to draft Roman Schmidt RD in the 2021 draft he would be a pretty good partner for Kleven on the 3rd pairing right side. And if they are able to add another 1st rd pick in the teens or higher to draft Ceulemans RD he would also be an excellent player for their 2nd pairing RD spot & maybe they could use a couple of their prospects to get him.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

He will definitely be given the benefit of the doubt early, mostly in part due to his draft capital, but I would be surprised if he wasn't a healthy scratch at times in the season, Mann has shown already he will sit our prospects for non prospects.

Every time I've watched him this year he seems 3 seconds behind every decision, not sure a smaller rink with professional men is going to help that.

I'm wrong many, many times, I'm hoping this is another one to add to the list, but everything I've seen so far leads to disappointment. He's not playing against kids anymore, he can't get by on his tools anymore to mask the struggles with his decision making

Agreed. A little Smaller rinks , Bigger faster more physical players less time and space as well. It will present a challenge

 

[Hale The Villain]

That's hindsight. Believe it or not, I was following the NHL even more hardcore than today. Sure the tools and information spread weren't as great as today but scouts/hockey people were pretty high on Cowen in general. Another team is lucky that he injured himself because he would have went higher if not.

I'm not debating that Cowen was ranked high or that it was a surprise he was drafted top 10, I'm saying the consensus was stupid to think he was a top 10 pick. You can link to whatever source you want that incorrectly described Cowen's game, but someone so lacking in hockey sense and skill should never have gone anywhere near the top 10.

Not sure I am following here. What are you basing yourself on when you say we "reached" for a pick? Because you make that kind of comment quite often.

If I have ever said that we reached for a player it's in reference to where I viewed their correct draft position, not where the consensus ranked them.

Thomson was a reach IMO at 19 because I wouldn't have drafted him until the late 2nd at the earliest, even if he was generally ranked in the late 1st.

 

[BoardsofCanada]

I'm not debating that Cowen was ranked high or that it was a surprise he was drafted top 10, I'm saying the consensus was stupid to think he was a top 10 pick. You can link to whatever source you want that incorrectly described Cowen's game, but someone so lacking in hockey sense and skill should never have gone anywhere near the top 10.

You keep talking about his lack of hockey sense and skill. My memory of Cowen's weakness was mobility. He seemed slow and couldn't handle the shifty moves of smaller, quicker forwards.

 

[Hale The Villain]

You keep talking about his lack of hockey sense and skill. My memory of Cowen's weakness was mobility. He seemed slow and couldn't handle the shifty moves of smaller, quicker forwards.

He was a better skater before his injuries for sure.

Maybe could have had a Gudbranson-type career if his mobility wasn't hampered, but I don't think there's any question the biggest reasons why he failed was because of his hockey IQ (had no idea where to be positionally) and his poor puck moving and puckhandling ability.

 

[cudi]

He was a better skater before his injuries for sure.

Maybe could have had a Gudbranson-type career if his mobility wasn't hampered, but I don't think there's any question the biggest reasons why he failed was because of his hockey IQ (had no idea where to be positionally) and his poor puck moving and puckhandling ability.

Cowen played on a pretty great team in junior too IIRC so good chance that hid some of his deficiencies.

I remember how terrible he was in the WJC that one year tho. Constantly being walked

 

[stempniaksen]

Cowen would still be carving out a role in the league if it wasn't for the hip injuries. People aren't giving him enough credit for the player/prospect he was before it all fell apart. Hockey IQ wasn't a particularly glaring issue for his first couple of years in the league and he actually had some offensive tools. Bit of bad luck that the league was shifting towards speed and skill the moment we took him, but he wasn't some Dylan McIlraith redux. That's not to say he was worth his draft spot, even if he remained healthy his whole career, but it's easy to remember the dude who couldn't pivot and quickly fell out the league and not the guy who looked like he could have been Parayko-esque.

To bring the conversation back to Lassi, I'm much more concerned about his apparent IQ issues than I ever with Cowen. Jared just couldn't skate at an AHL level, let alone NHL level after injuries. Lassi is a guy who took the step to playing the pro game and seems to have fallen apart mentally, and that's just not something you can fix.

 

[Imnotagoodposter]

IMO Ottawa's future left side on defence is set with Chabot, Sanderson & Kleven, but the right side is unclear at this point. I think JBD will be a future RD defenceman on the Sens & Lassi, Brannstrom & Guennette most likely will fight it out for a top 2 RD pairing spot.

If Ottawa has the opportunity to draft Roman Schmidt RD in the 2021 draft he would be a pretty good partner for Kleven on the 3rd pairing right side. And if they are able to add another 1st rd pick in the teens or higher to draft Ceulemans RD he would also be an excellent player for their 2nd pairing RD spot & maybe they could use a couple of their prospects to get him.

Hey man I’m all for being positive but two of those left sided d havent sniffed pro hockey. A little early to be saying they’re set in stone. Maybe we draft a guy even bigger than kleven, what then?

 

[bert]

You keep talking about his lack of hockey sense and skill. My memory of Cowen's weakness was mobility. He seemed slow and couldn't handle the shifty moves of smaller, quicker forwards.

He had no idea how to anticipate the play. Hockey sense was undoubtedly his biggest weakness.