Speculation: LA Kings Offseason Thread

[kingsfan28]

The truth behind Sutter getting locked out, as told by Tyler Toffoli:

 

[SettlementRichie10]

is it truly an offseason thread without an irrelevant argument about race

edit: not worth it

 

[SettlementRichie10]

I 100% agree. There are definite limitations, and yes, there are other reasonable explanations that can be a blocker for non-whites to learn the sport.

I just think it's important to recognize why the game is in its current state, for better or worse. And it's a foundation for my own rhetoric about growing the sport, being more inclusionary, etc. It's because in the past, with implicit and explicit actions, it hasn't always been that way.

But to echo BigKing and RJ, the league has also not been very good with marketing. Having superstars already going to bigger markets with a rich history (McDavid to Edmonton, Bedard with Chicago, Matthews with Toronto, and Crosby with Pittsburgh) have also played a major part. That's just been unfortunate luck.

There’s a reason hockey exploded in America when Gretzky was traded to a non-traditional market.

 

[bland]

The point about the quality of competition is fair, but it's hard to overlook the fact that Matt Roy has had the best total even strength GF% (54%) amongst regular defensemen on the Kings for the past three seasons. If Roy didn't have to spend 3/4 of last season next to Sean Durzi, the advantage would be even greater. I'm sure bland is going to tell me stats don't mean squat.

I will concede that Doughty looks better than Roy on the ice, but the end results keep pointing to how effective Roy is at what he does. He's the anti-Doughty, no flash, no twirling sticks, no trash talking.

It's cool. Doughty is great. I love the guy. Roy is just sneaky good.

Roy is every bit as good as Doughty in defensive zone coverages. Ain't nobody a bigger Roy fan than me, but dude doesn't come close to Doughty in transition defense, zone clearances or generating breakouts. Like not even remotely close - and that's just in their end.

 

[kingsholygrail]

What's the timeline of when the sport was dominated by working class people? What years are you referring to?

And I want to grow the sport, because I love the sport. I want more people and different people to take it beyond where it's currently at. More fans lead to more revenue and a healthier league.

In the long long ago when sports were a game played part-time and not considered real jobs.

There's not a lot that can be done. Rinks are expensive to maintain especially in unfavorable environments. Violent sports are increasingly being marginalized for youth. The NFL has a serious problem developing down the road as less kids are playing the sport.

Marketing-wise, there's not a lot that can be done there either. "Personalities" aren't going to make the league more popular. People still have trouble following the game even with 4K and the one thing that made NHL as popular as it used to be is being steadily regulated out of the game and that's the violence.

 

[Statto]

Roy is every bit as good as Doughty in defensive zone coverages. Ain't nobody a bigger Roy fan than me, but dude doesn't come close to Doughty in transition defense, zone clearances or generating breakouts. Like not even remotely close - and that's just in their end.

Roy also turns the puck over… a lot.

 

[Sol]

I 100% agree. There are definite limitations, and yes, there are other reasonable explanations that can be a blocker for non-whites to learn the sport.

I just think it's important to recognize why the game is in its current state, for better or worse. And it's a foundation for my own rhetoric about growing the sport, being more inclusionary, etc. It's because in the past, with implicit and explicit actions, it hasn't always been that way.

But to echo BigKing and RJ, the league has also not been very good with marketing. Having superstars already going to bigger markets with a rich history (McDavid to Edmonton, Bedard with Chicago, Matthews with Toronto, and Crosby with Pittsburgh) have also played a major part. That's just been unfortunate luck.

Definitely. They really need to do something to get fans interested. I think switching back to the old Allstate format would be a lot better than the junk we have now. I also think the NHL hit a homerun with the Knights and their appeal. Truly a team that stands out than most in their very limited existence. I personally don’t know what they can do. The Hockey World Cup would be a good start. Hosting important games in other countries. And not f***ing hiring fall out boy

 

[Sol]

There’s a reason hockey exploded in America when Gretzky was traded to a non-traditional market.

Yeah true. I think a McDavid caliber player landed on the Kings then hockey would explode down here. Unfortunately we’ve had no one very interesting for as far as I can remember. Maybe Palffy? Kopitar and Doughty were far from electrifying.

The truth behind Sutter getting locked out, as told by Tyler Toffoli:

I know it has a light hearted undertone but that’s super weird they’d do that to him. Especially when you consider Toffoli wanted out of the Flames if sutter was to return.

 

[Statto]

Roy is every bit as good as Doughty in defensive zone coverages. Ain't nobody a bigger Roy fan than me, but dude doesn't come close to Doughty in transition defense, zone clearances or generating breakouts. Like not even remotely close - and that's just in their end.

Actually this is a good example with Roy with a lot of people not seeing the big picture. Sure Roy does some nice stuff physically, winning board battles, nice gap control etc. Then as you allude to he then so often immediately gives away possession either with a giveaway, a poor zone clearance or mediocre transition. At one point he was pacing Durzi with turnovers last season. His poor use of the puck at times makes the nice stuff a waste. He only cleaned his game up when playing with Gavrikov and I think that’s because he wasn’t the main guy on the pair and had less responsibility. It’s why I’ve always felt he’s a #4 guy and I’d be ok with moving him for good value to open up a right spot, as long as more physicality came in on the left.

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

In the long long ago when sports were a game played part-time and not considered real jobs.

There's not a lot that can be done. Rinks are expensive to maintain especially in unfavorable environments. Violent sports are increasingly being marginalized for youth. The NFL has a serious problem developing down the road as less kids are playing the sport.

Marketing-wise, there's not a lot that can be done there either. "Personalities" aren't going to make the league more popular. People still have trouble following the game even with 4K and the one thing that made NHL as popular as it used to be is being steadily regulated out of the game and that's the violence.

People like the violence of hockey...not everyone...in my opinion the violence is for Morons and losers not real hockey fans that enjoy the artistry and skill of the game...its by far the Greatest game and most difficult to master on Earth and there isn't even a 2nd place finisher

 

[Lt Dan]

People like the violence of hockey...not everyone...in my opinion the violence is for Morons and losers not real hockey fans that enjoy the artistry and skill of the game...its by far the Greatest game and most difficult to master on Earth and there isn't even a 2nd place finisher

 

[BigKing]

People like the violence of hockey...not everyone...in my opinion the violence is for Morons and losers not real hockey fans that enjoy the artistry and skill of the game...its by far the Greatest game and most difficult to master on Earth and there isn't even a 2nd place finisher

Why not both?

The sport is trash without both. It's UFC without the artistry and skill and it is soccer if it loses the violence. I don't dislike soccer but I also don't post on an MLS message board or buy season seats to the Galaxy for the last 20+ years.

The violence amplifies the artistry and the skill. A huge part of the skill being so amazing is to do what they do while avoiding being murdered at the same time.

 

[kingsholygrail]

Why not both?

The sport is trash without both. It's UFC without the artistry and skill and it is soccer if it loses the violence. I don't dislike soccer but I also don't post on an MLS message board or buy season seats to the Galaxy for the last 20+ years.

The violence amplifies the artistry and the skill. A huge part of the skill being so amazing is to do what they do while avoiding being murdered at the same time.

It's the same with football for me. See some amazing skilled plays and then someone getting BTFO by a tackle. What's not to love?

 

[Johnny Utah]

The height of the Kings success 2012 and 2014, they had skill, toughness and great goaltending.

Too bad we only have one of those today.

 

[Sol]

is it truly an offseason thread without an irrelevant argument about race

Would you truly want it any other way?

It's the same with football for me. See some amazing skilled plays and then someone getting BTFO by a tackle. What's not to love?

That’s why this holds true.
“It’s better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener in a war”

When the Kings get pushed around they immediately fold. I think it’s super strange when people want to eliminate the violence from hockey. Look at the UFC. Their brand skyrocketed because it was more violent than boxing, and more human than boxing. The less human you make a sport the less interesting it becomes. And this is an unpopular opinion I’m sure, I know CTE is a big deal and the league has got to be better with player evaluation and healing. I get all that but even then there’s an inherent risk in all sports. That’s why people get paid big money. You give and you get. There’s risk assessment in all aspects of life.

 

[Papa Mocha 15]

The height of the Kings success 2012 and 2014, they had skill, toughness and great goaltending.

Too bad we only have one of those today.

I'm confused on which one we have right now.

 

[johnjm22]

Hockey has become an elite upper middle class youth sport. And the problem is a lot of hockey fans like it that way.

I was just arguing with someone on the main boards the other day who refused to believe that a larger talent pool would equate to an increase in talent at the top level. The NBA has directly benefited from growing the sport in Europe. Just look at the top stars in the NBA over the past twenty years versus the twenty years prior. Larger talent pool = better product. This is just basic mathematics.

If hockey could become more accessible to lower income athletes and shed its image of, to put it bluntly, a sport for rich white kids, things would get a lot better. Until then, the NHL is destined to float around as the 4th or 5th most popular league in NA.

100% agree. Financial accessibility is the biggest blocker for growing the sport and opening paths for more talent.

I absolutely think the lack of recreational play is one of the main issues. I think you really need to be around this sport in order to get into it. Equipment and cost are definitely barriers to entry. But even more so than that is actual rinks and areas to play the game. You can play basketball pretty much anywhere.

Most peoples exposure to hockey is having coincidentally seen it on TV a few times. And they probably think it's boring.

You need to get more people playing the game, and it needs to be a better TV product. How you do that I don't know. But that's the only way I see the sport growing significantly from here.

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

Yep that's my opinion and everyone's entitled to their opinions...any moron can fight but to play the game the way its supposed to be played now that's a different matter! Glad the Goon is all but Dead

 

[johnjm22]

I was responding to the thing about the sport's popularity and I had in my response that it is still a "white" sport and it suffers from that when it comes to popularity.

It isn't cool. It has zero relevance to popular culture in the U.S. Check out the recording artists that performed at the last few All-Star Games:

2023 - Fall Out Boy (In 2023!!)
2022 - Machine Gun Kelly
2021 - N/A
2020 - Green Day
2019 - Bebe Rexha
2018 - KID ROCK (!!!)

The barrier of entry due to cost of equipment and ice time is always going to relegate it to the back of the line as far as popularity of the big sports go but, yes, it very much still has a marketing problem. There isn't someone making the sport cool enough to have people want to figure out how to overcome the cost issue.

We currently have a player that has been good enough to have people wonder if he is better than 99 and he could walk down the street in a majority of cities with an NHL team and not be bothered.

I mean, I love hockey and have played for 30 years--it's STILL hard for me to play--it's expensive and i have to drive at least 20 minutes to the nearest rink

I could walk a block and play basketball and soccer, arguably baseball et al

access IS an issue and that's before the socioeconomics enter the room

However @BigKing nails it re: marketing, the people in charge are stuck in 1950s television levels of marketing saavy, and I don't mean in the hip retro way.

Looks at a map of where hockey is popular. The correlation is obvious. Hockey is more likely to be popular in cold weather areas.

The reason hockey is more popular in Minnesota than it is in Texas isn't because of marketing.

Marketing won't make hockey as popular in Missouri as it is in Maine.

Unless we have different definitions of "marketing" I don't see how marketing is the issue.

 

[bland]

In the long long ago when sports were a game played part-time and not considered real jobs.

There's not a lot that can be done. Rinks are expensive to maintain especially in unfavorable environments. Violent sports are increasingly being marginalized for youth. The NFL has a serious problem developing down the road as less kids are playing the sport.

Marketing-wise, there's not a lot that can be done there either. "Personalities" aren't going to make the league more popular. People still have trouble following the game even with 4K and the one thing that made NHL as popular as it used to be is being steadily regulated out of the game and that's the violence.

It's the skating, always has been, always will be. Pros start out on the ice at such a young age that kids have to be indoctrinated into the hockey culture by their parents instead of finding that they are interested in the sport and gravitating to it on their own.

You need constant repetition to cross from casual to serious and that requires a hell of a sacrifice from parents to get up early and often to help their kids. Its going to be very difficult for any grade school American kid to develop enough aptitude to be considered as having enough potential to break thru to the pro ranks. You need generations of hockey fandom in the family ahead of you that understands that process to get a leg up if you aren't raised in a thriving hockey community.

 

[Sol]

Looks at a map of where hockey is popular. The correlation is obvious. Hockey is more likely to be popular in cold weather areas.

The reason hockey is more popular in Minnesota than it is in Texas isn't because of marketing.

Marketing won't make hockey as popular in Missouri as it is in Maine.

Unless we have different definitions of "marketing" I don't see how marketing is the issue.

I think people forget that. Hockey is definitely climate related and will always be a more niche sport for that reason. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. There will always be more readily accessible sports than hockey. I think people need to just accept that. I wish people gave a shit about hockey when I was growing up in So-Cal but no one seemed to really care for it. All you needed was a basketball and you had a game of 5v5 right then and there. I understood that. No school will ever have hockey nets and sticks readily available for there students to pick up whenever they want. However you have grass, a couple bins laying around, boom you got a game of soccer.

 

[Sol]

It's the skating, always has been, always will be. Pros start out on the ice at such a young age that kids have to be indoctrinated into the hockey culture by their parents instead of finding that they are interested in the sport and gravitating to it on their own.

You need constant repetition to cross from casual to serious and that requires a hell of a sacrifice from parents to get up early and often to help their kids. Its going to be very difficult for any grade school American kid to develop enough aptitude to be considered as having enough potential to break thru to the pro ranks. You need generations of hockey fandom in the family ahead of you that understands that process to get a leg up if you aren't raised in a thriving hockey community.

That’s why I don’t think it will ever change. Most pros were skating at what like 5? I got into hockey by my uncle. It’s so niche and hard to access. That’s why I don’t think there’s a race issue in hockey. It’s just a lack of popularity and access. And a massive amount of skill in different areas. Like shit you can be a pro soccer player by just having really good defensive awareness. A lot of pros can’t really dribble or aren’t even really fast.
All they do is get the ball and make a pass. That’s that. That’s probably why the MLS aid such a joke of a league. Little pay and most of the people with skill would rather play basketball or another sport that makes good money. America has some of the best athletes in the world while being eons away from the premier league, bundesliga, and La liga. Just look how Messi at his age made Inter Miami win the league with one of the worst balanced rosters.


I think overall problem forget how niche hockey is and how hard it is to get into for that reason. You have to be around it to get into it. And if a league like the MLS is this bad then you can say that athletes are also picking easy sports to get into that make the most money.

 

[johnjm22]

Regarding hockey being a "white" sport. Again, I point to the geography. Hockey grew out of cold weather areas (for obvious reasons).

White people inhabit cold weather areas.

That's the primary reason winter sports have more Caucasian people participating.

There are economic factors as well. Black people for example on average have less money, but they also make up a smaller amount of the population in the areas where hockey is popular to begin with.

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

Would you truly want it any other way?


That’s why this holds true.
“It’s better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener in a war”

When the Kings get pushed around they immediately fold. I think it’s super strange when people want to eliminate the violence from hockey. Look at the UFC. Their brand skyrocketed because it was more violent than boxing, and more human than boxing. The less human you make a sport the less interesting it becomes. And this is an unpopular opinion I’m sure, I know CTE is a big deal and the league has got to be better with player evaluation and healing. I get all that but even then there’s an inherent risk in all sports. That’s why people get paid big money. You give and you get. There’s risk assessment in all aspects of life.

Big difference between violence and being tough...Kings lack toughness and they gave that away when McNabb was given to the Golden Knights instead of that p***y Forbert. Lemieux was sent packing cause the Kings would always be suspect to get a penalty on the "biter" incident. Blake and co tried to bring some toughness by drafting Ziemmer but he's a ways off and Dvorak was drafted cause of his size,physicality and hopefully he can add the toughness element too at the Pro level in NAmerica! Good to see Blake is leaving him in Czechia for the 2023-24 season where he'll play with Pro's again

 

[Johnny Utah]

It's funny how a lawyer who never played pro hockey (did play college) developed a tougher roster than a 6'-4" hard hitting defenseman with over 20 fighting majors in his career and was surrounded by players like McSorley, Parker, Worrell, Cummins, Clowe, Shelley, and Ivanans this entire career.