Speculation: LA Kings Offseason Thread

[tny760]

Someone wrote here....or another thread, not completely sure,

That LA Management has the philosophy, that young players need to be able to TAKE the jobs from veterans....

Who here has an issue with that philosophy? If a young player can't take the job away from a veteran....why would you just give him one?

if you expect jobs to be taken with 6-8 minutes in half-ass deployments and garbage time you're not gonna have too many young guys coming up

 

[NikF]

The job of the Kings is to develop and maximize the talent level of their prospects, not treat them with a "prove to us you aren't shit and we will give you some ice time" suspicion.

 

[VILARGOD]

I do remember Christian Ruuttu really wanted Stutzle over Byfield.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

if you expect jobs to be taken with 6-8 minutes in half-ass deployments and garbage time you're not gonna have too many young guys coming up

The job of the Kings is to develop and maximize the talent level of their prospects, not treat them with a "prove to us you aren't shit and we will give you some ice time" suspicion.

Why not? If the Kids can't excel playing 8 minutes, why would you think they would excel playing more?

You realize there is more than just game time, that would allow the kids to "TAKE" the job right? I mean that might be the only part we see.....but that's only a tenth of what goes into it....

And...the job of the Kings is to win, plain and simple.

 

[Mattias]

Very interesting discussion- and rich content. A few points:

I don’t think we can pin any of the blame on AEG. Name another King’s owner that won a Cup. AEG spends up to the Cap, allows management to have autonomy without outside interference and ultimately demands results on the ice as DL found out. Would you rather have an owner sticking his nose into day-to-day management? See Donald Sterling or Dan Snyder for an alternate approach.

As stated previously, Rosen confirms there was a coup engineered to remove DL. While unstated, I think it is safe to assume that it was Luc who was behind it. DL consistently kept Luc out of hockey decisions, and Luc had no right being involved in the business side of the franchise and wanted a larger role. He used his reputation within the organization and boyish charm to get his way. Everything that has transpired since then is completely on Luc, hence my signature.

While Blake has done a mediocre to respectable job as GM, his choice of a coach was a complete mismatch of where the team was at the end of 2019. We needed a coach with a proven record of developing youngsters. TM is known for getting the most out of a veteran roster (even while consistently falling short of a Cup). We needed a coach who could work with youngsters, who could show patience, tolerate forgivable mistakes and identify what role each prospect would eventually fit. Instead, we have a coach with a system that demanded players who were suited for his approach and had no patience for youngsters that couldn’t immediately fill a required role.

At the same time, on what planet do highly paid employees set the agenda for the organization. In corporate America, for better or worse, it’s the C-Suite that runs things and employees are free to take their services elsewhere if they don’t like it. I think the cave to 11 and 8 goes back to Luc’s original sin- he convinced AEG that DL and DS were the ones holding the team back and that he, Luc, could win another Cup with this group. When that patently failed in 2019, instead of using the opportunity to start with a blank slate and trade ALL the vets, BLuc cut short a needed rebuild to appease the top employees. This is easy to say given 20-20 hindsight, but when Drew said he was tired of losing, the response should have been to ask which team he wanted to be traded to and thank him for his service.

As Herby points out, the biggest error was the devaluation of assets that has occurred under Blake’s watch. Several prospects such as Turcotte, Kaliyev and Bjornfot had real value. Now, they are depreciated. Asset management is the most important job of a GM, and Blake has fallen short.

Having said that, it is not too late. Kopitar and Doughty still have value. I know Blake will never do this, but the right move is ask them where they would like to try and win another Cup. The Kings will not as long as they are here. In AK’s case we can even offer to retain 50%. The guy who, in my opinion, figured this out was Bill Guerin. He paid a huge price to get Parise and Sutter out of his locker room even though they could still play. This was necessary for a culture change. We will have to pay far less to accomplish the same thing- one year of Kopitar retention at 50% and 4 years of DD at 33%. Staying with the same coach and same leadership group will fit Einstein’s definition of insanity- doing the same thing all over and expecting different results.

Great post overall and just wanted to highlight what you wrote here. Upper level will always care about profits the most. Koptiar and Doughty sell the most jerseys and are the most marketable, so that is a huge gamble Blake will have to make.

I'm also not sure Leadership would want to sign off on an extension for Blake and TMac at the moment. Plenty of other teams have long term coaches getting fired after extension (Sutter, Babcock).

...or maybe I'm too much copium right now.

 

[Schmooley]

Someone wrote here....or another thread, not completely sure,

That LA Management has the philosophy, that young players need to be able to TAKE the jobs from veterans....

Who here has an issue with that philosophy? If a young player can't take the job away from a veteran....why would you just give him one?

Some have earned it. Fagemo scored in a game and got sent down immediately. Bjornfot and Spence helped carry a team into the playoffs last year. Spence led the AHL as a rookie I think. Eyssimont got a game next to Kovalchuk and looked pretty good and we never saw him again. Clarke is a star player his whole life and was picked top 10. Moverare has shown he was ready multiple times. Lias was a pg in the AHL and got called up to play on the 4th line. The list goes on really.
Now look at some others. Durzi actively lost games by turning the puck over. Multiple times this year. Never a demotion. Iafallo went months without scoring for months two years in a row. Never benched. Moore looked bad for a while after injury. Never a demotion.
The corpse of Dustin Brown was on the top line until playoffs last year.
There have been several reports now and even Maclellan himself has said players in the minors are upset and feel like there is no path for them to make the NHL no matter what they do.

 

[tny760]

Why not? If the Kids can't excel playing 8 minutes, why would you think they would excel playing more?

You realize there is more than just game time, that would allow the kids to "TAKE" the job right? I mean that might be the only part we see.....but that's only a tenth of what goes into it....

And...the job of the Kings is to win, plain and simple.

yeah you're right, they gotta show out in practice so they can get scratched for zack macewen to go -3 with 1 hit and a hooking penalty, so that durzi can give up 2 preventable goals and be rewarded with power play shifts, so that edler can... exist

you can defer to "you don't know what's going on behind the scenes" all you want but you don't know either

@Schmooley said it better than i could right above, there's countless examples of baffling decisions by management here, there's smoke left right and center. i'm not comfortable sitting back, handwaving and going "coach knows best"

 

[Matt13]

I think there is an over-exaggeration of TOI and cherry picking of stats to fit a narrative.

Acording to Statmuse.com, Arthur Kaliyev played games with 7:54, 6:12, and 8:50 of ice time in March. However his total average for the month was 9:18.

In November his average TOI was 11:48 while during December his average was 14:17.

Interestingly in 11:48 average of November he had 5g5a +2 rating. In December with his expanded role he had just 3 points.....

Overall for the season he averaged 12:16.

 

[Matt13]

Some have earned it. Fagemo scored in a game and got sent down immediately. Bjornfot and Spence helped carry a team into the playoffs last year. Spence led the AHL as a rookie I think. Eyssimont got a game next to Kovalchuk and looked pretty good and we never saw him again. Clarke is a star player his whole life and was picked top 10. Moverare has shown he was ready multiple times. Lias was a pg in the AHL and got called up to play on the 4th line. The list goes on really.
Now look at some others. Durzi actively lost games by turning the puck over. Multiple times this year. Never a demotion. Iafallo went months without scoring for months two years in a row. Never benched. Moore looked bad for a while after injury. Never a demotion.
The corpse of Dustin Brown was on the top line until playoffs last year.
There have been several reports now and even Maclellan himself has said players in the minors are upset and feel like there is no path for them to make the NHL no matter what they do.

I certainly agreed with a lot this but I don't think its just that simple.

Fagemo got 9 games this season, Average TOI was 7:51. He did score two goals, but was a minus 4. He did score, but was sent down 2 games later after going -2 agains the TBL.

Bjornfot and Spence were waiver wire exempt. Would I have preferred them over Durzi, Edler or Walker, yes, but those guys weren't going to get waived for nothing.

 

[tny760]

I think there is an over-exaggeration of TOI and cherry picking of stats to fit a narrative.

Acording to Statmuse.com, Arthur Kaliyev played games with 7:54, 6:12, and 8:50 of ice time in March. However his total average for the month was 9:18.

In November his average TOI was 11:48 while during December his average was 14:17.

Interestingly in 11:48 average of November he had 5g5a +2 rating. In December with his expanded role he had just 3 points.....

Overall for the season he averaged 12:16.

i also think cherry picking kaliyev is guilty of the same sin, since he gets PP minutes. there's the revolving door on the 4th line of guys who don't see 8 minutes and are hard benched the moment todd sees it fit to start double shifting kopi and danault's lines. the 3rd D pairing where you could just as readily run 11/7 and get a look at bjornfot/spence. it's fair to question kaliyev's production but i don't think it's fair to behave as though he's seeing the same opportunities as other wingers. he went up to kopitar's wing for one period and immediately banged out his best shift/period of the year. right back down next game.

nah, re-sign edler and trade for macewen..........

 

[Maynard]

That is the most frustrating thing, is the deviation from proven development paths and the awful results it has produced. And these guys never have to answer for it. Nobody in the media cares, the bloggers don’t ever ask, I’ve submitted that questions to these guys when they do the fan questions stuff but it never gets asked.

I think the entire subject must be off limits to the bloggers. This is what happens when local fans are covering the team.

It would be very easy to ask a question or two about the unconventional approach to development. You’d have to couch it a little, disguise it as curious question from a diehard Reign fan, maybe do a “you don’t have to answer this” or “tell me if I’m overstepping here but…” and then ask if the process with the kids could be harming the future (or present) of the team with all the AHL time etc.

I’m guessing they’re told to ask fluffy cotton ball questions or they’ll be cleaning out their desks even though they don’t have desks lol.

 

[Herby]

Why was Byfield destined to spend time in the AHL?

Why have no other teams put their players (especially forwards) taken that high into the AHL?

Why are the Kings different?

Where is the proof that QB was going to be a 3-5 year project? Any quotes from managers, draft analysts, heck even fans?

How are other teams able to put young players into roles they can succeed at without AHL time? Tonight another example with Knies on a playoff team.

If bringing a high pick up to the NHL before they were ready is destined to destroy them why didn’t that happen with Hughes and Barkov?

The AHL was an option for Barkov and Hughes, why were those players kept in the NHL despite not being ready? Did it damage their development in any way by being in the NHL.

 

[Matt13]

i also think cherry picking kaliyev is guilty of the same sin, since he gets PP minutes. there's the revolving door on the 4th line of guys who don't see 8 minutes and are hard benched the moment todd sees it fit to start double shifting kopi and danault's lines. the 3rd D pairing where you could just as readily run 11/7 and get a look at bjornfot/spence. it's fair to question kaliyev's production but i don't think it's fair to behave as though he's seeing the same opportunities as other wingers. he went up to kopitar's wing for one period and immediately banged out his best shift/period of the year. right back down next game.

nah, re-sign edler and trade for macewen..........

I wasn't cherry picking Kaliyev, but he is one of the constantly playing young forwards on the team that people are saying doesn't get opportunity. I cant use Villardi as he is doing well, hell even JAD ATOI is 10:37 this past year.

We can call it garbage that Kaliyev plays with, but lets be honest, Blake Lizotte still managed to score 34 points this past season and move up from the bottom line to the 3rd, promoting himself through hard work.

How is that any different or not to be expected from anyone else?

 

[Matt13]

Why was Byfield destined to spend time in the AHL?

Why have no other teams put their players (especially forwards) taken that high into the AHL?

Why are the Kings different?

Where is the proof that QB was going to be a 3-5 year project? Any quotes from managers, draft analysts, heck even fans?

How are other teams able to put young players into roles they can succeed at without AHL time? Tonight another example with Knies on a playoff team.

If bringing a high pick up to the NHL before they were ready is destined to destroy them why didn’t that happen with Hughes and Barkov?

The AHL was an option for Barkov and Hughes, why were those players kept in the NHL despite not being ready? Did it damage their development in any way by being in the NHL.

You're kind of erratic and all over the place saying things that I didn't say or even suggest.

But, lets start with the conversation, how many number 1 or 2 overalls were ever not considered NHL ready? I have always thought of that as kind of a home run spot if you will.

This is from the Hockey Writers. I believe they have a decent take on NHL players:

"One of the biggest misconceptions surrounding Byfield at the draft was how NHL-ready he was. People saw a 6-foot-5, 210-pound young man and assumed he could jump straight into the NHL. In reality, he was always more of a project than some of his peers like Tim Stutzle or Lucas Raymond."

I take that to mean he wasn't ready for the NHL and would take some development time. Again though his time in the AHL was more injury related and bad luck than where they assigned him to develop.

Stop cherry picking players like Knies having success. That has just much to do with the players desire than just the development plan of the team. No one has ever asks how did Pavel Datsyuk become such a good player while developing in Russia. He's just a good player!

 

[kingsfan28]

Many differences between DL and Blake though:
- DL was an actual scout prior to becoming GM, so him weighing in is more forgivable
- His prospects were getting handled more traditionally, and better

Re: Turcotte, as mentioned, I've also received tepid feedback. It's not just bitter people running their mouths. I did brush it off as Turcotte having a bad day. I'm still not sold on it, but am a bit alarmed at some of the details Rosen provided to give it more credence.

Sometimes you can hear the bitterness in Rosens articles because he was let go by the Kings, just like Hammond, but way less snark. He's still mad he was let go during covid, only to be replace with Dooley, at half the salary. Jon has always been honest, maybe too honest when covering them, and could've led to his departure.

True, but when all your scouts, including the director says this isn't the right pick or move and you do it anyway, that fall on him. We all know DL thought he was the smartest guy in the room and didn't listen at times.

 

[BigKing]

I wasn't cherry picking Kaliyev, but he is one of the constantly playing young forwards on the team that people are saying doesn't get opportunity. I cant use Villardi as he is doing well, hell even JAD ATOI is 10:37 this past year.

We can call it garbage that Kaliyev plays with, but lets be honest, Blake Lizotte still managed to score 34 points this past season and move up from the bottom line to the 3rd, promoting himself through hard work.

How is that any different or not to be expected from anyone else?

Would be cool if Kaliyev was a center and basically got to play with Fiala and Vilardi by default since the guys drafted to be centers on this team can't play the position. It's definitely just hard work that gets you 34 points.

Anyways, Kaliyev got opportunity and I don't think he would have lost it if not for the injury. He misses almost two months and it mostly didn't click for him when he came back. Two weeks after his return, Blake is trading a 1st and Quick and the Kings are all-in on winning. Kings go on an 11 game point streak so TM is going to screw with it to make sure Kaliyev is getting the proper development.

I'm maybe the biggest Kaliyev guy here but I agree that he got opportunities. He just didn't get much of it after coming back from the injury until that stretch where they kind of went in to the toilet with the Anderson concussion game. Pretty rough Game 2 and that was that for him.

Of course, Grundstrom and Kupari were absolute dogshit but they played all six games. Hell, Kupari only played 4:55 in the Game 4 choke job that went to OT. Bad Game 2 or not, I'd prefer to see the higher ceiling guy out there over these two JAGs.

 

[tny760]

I wasn't cherry picking Kaliyev, but he is one of the constantly playing young forwards on the team that people are saying doesn't get opportunity. I cant use Villardi as he is doing well, hell even JAD ATOI is 10:37 this past year.

We can call it garbage that Kaliyev plays with, but lets be honest, Blake Lizotte still managed to score 34 points this past season and move up from the bottom line to the 3rd, promoting himself through hard work.

How is that any different or not to be expected from anyone else?

well i think there's an argument for lizotte's promotion more being out of necessity with vilardi and QB not hacking it at center. not to say i haven't been happy with his play but he also doesn't really belong on an NHL 3rd line

 

[YAYSAY]

I wasn't cherry picking Kaliyev, but he is one of the constantly playing young forwards on the team that people are saying doesn't get opportunity. I cant use Villardi as he is doing well, hell even JAD ATOI is 10:37 this past year.

We can call it garbage that Kaliyev plays with, but lets be honest, Blake Lizotte still managed to score 34 points this past season and move up from the bottom line to the 3rd, promoting himself through hard work.

How is that any different or not to be expected from anyone else?

I mean it's reasonable to identify the playstyle of the player. Lizotte is a grinder with a motor, he's the center so his line is responsible for playing that way. They're expected to forecheck hard and cycle. That's not Kaliyev, he's a sniper who is playing in a mismatched role.

 

[kingsfan28]

Stutzle would not have made a difference vs. Edmonton, the Kings inability to kill penalties would have still been there with TS. Edmonton is just a terrible matchup for the Kings.

The difference is the Kings would have been playing either Winnipeg or Seattle had they had TS on the roster this season.

You really think TS would be worth 5 more wins considering how bad we were in net?

 

[NikF]

When people say a top 3 pick is a project, they mean he might be a core player by year 3 and a key player by year 4 instead of being a plug-and-play top 6 guy. Byfield needs to be a legit top 6 player next season or you're moving the timeline so far off that successful comparables are almost non-existent. They need to play him at C exclusively and give him good linemates in order to have any chance of salvaging this. The entire continuity hinges on this because once Kopitar is done there won't be any replacement down the middle if Byfield isn't that guy. But again, it seems to me like Kings fans are more concerned about that than management, I am not sure they frankly care much for things beyond Kopitar era, they probably won't be here anyways if it fizzles out.

 

[Matt13]

well i think there's an argument for lizotte's promotion more being out of necessity with vilardi and QB not hacking it at center. not to say i haven't been happy with his play but he also doesn't really belong on an NHL 3rd line

I mean it's reasonable to identify the playstyle of the player. Lizotte is a grinder with a motor, he's the center so his line is responsible for playing that way. They're expected to forecheck hard and cycle. That's not Kaliyev, he's a sniper who is playing in a mismatched role.

These are more than fair assessments of what I said versus what is really going on.

Though I still stand by my most basic comment that Blake works his ass off every shift. College Free agent right? He has worked for everything he has and has never been entitled to anything because of his draft position.

 

[fsanford]

You really think TS would be worth 5 more wins considering how bad we were in net?

No, goal scoring wasn't the problem.
They were top 10 in goal scoring.

 

[Piston]

Someone wrote here....or another thread, not completely sure,

That LA Management has the philosophy, that young players need to be able to TAKE the jobs from veterans....

Who here has an issue with that philosophy? If a young player can't take the job away from a veteran....why would you just give him one?

This is so wrong. You draft players to play a role. Then you give them a chance to prove they can handle it. You don't expend an asset to bring in someone else to play that role and then ask an inexperienced rookie to outplay the newly acquired veteran who has already figured out how to stick in the NHL. You give the guy you drafted an opportunity to prove he belongs. Yes, that means there will be mistakes, and you have to live with them. But you don't ask him to be someone he's not - that's like forcing a square peg into a round hole.

Look at Kaliyev, I get it, McLellan was trying to teach him how to score 'dirty' goals to complement his skill set. He accomplished that last season with hard work- in the gym and improving his skating. He earned a shot to play in the role he was drafted for- a top 6 scoring winger. He was denied the opportunity. Then, Durzi make a terrible pass to him that results in a goal against, and he's benched for the duration of the playoffs. What kind of message does that send especially when Iafallo goes on an endless drought and Moore is a 1/2 step slower? Same with Clarke. How is he supposed to get an opportunity given the depth chart? Doughty isn't going anywhere, Roy probably stays because he excels at his role as a defensive stopper and Durzi and Spence are in the way?

If you believe in a player enough to expend a high draft pick for them at least give them the opportunity to fail. The good one's will figure it out.

 

[Matt13]

Of course, Grundstrom and Kupari were absolute dogshit but they played all six games. Hell, Kupari only played 4:55 in the Game 4 choke job that went to OT. Bad Game 2 or not, I'd prefer to see the higher ceiling guy out there over these two JAGs.

Back on page 1 I said to “schwack em”. Grundy doesn’t finish checks, doesn’t score and is just a place saver for halfway decent defense zone coverage.

 

[kingsfan28]

This is so wrong. You draft players to play a role. Then you give them a chance to prove they can handle it. You don't expend an asset to bring in someone else to play that role and then ask an inexperienced rookie to outplay the newly acquired veteran who has already figured out how to stick in the NHL. You give the guy you drafted an opportunity to prove he belongs. Yes, that means there will be mistakes, and you have to live with them. But you don't ask him to be someone he's not - that's like forcing a square peg into a round hole.

Look at Kaliyev, I get it, McLellan was trying to teach him how to score 'dirty' goals to complement his skill set. He accomplished that last season with hard work- in the gym and improving his skating. He earned a shot to play in the role he was drafted for- a top 6 scoring winger. He was denied the opportunity. Then, Durzi make a terrible pass to him that results in a goal against, and he's benched for the duration of the playoffs. What kind of message does that send especially when Iafallo goes on an endless drought and Moore is a 1/2 step slower? Same with Clarke. How is he supposed to get an opportunity given the depth chart? Doughty isn't going anywhere, Roy probably stays because he excels at his role as a defensive stopper and Durzi and Spence are in the way?

If you believe in a player enough to expend a high draft pick for them at least give them the opportunity to fail. The good one's will figure it out.

I watched that play a bunch of times, that pass was on his stick and he tried a risky shovel pass to Grundstrum at the blueline and it was turned over the 1st time. Then Kupari pass it to him along the boards and he turns it over there again , and EDM scores. Everyone tries to blame Durzi, but once it's passed to a forward, you can't go back and blame the pass after it's been turned over 2 more times. He lost a battle along the boards badly [not Durzi] and cost them a goal, and that wasn't his 1st time either. These are very simple plays he doesn't seem to get. You talk about roles, his was to get it in deep and start a forecheck which he couldn't do.