Speculation: LA Kings News, Rumors, Roster Thread part VII

[Statto]

Good article on LAKI.

How The Kings Were Built: 2022-23 Edition - LA Kings Insider

In the summer of 2022, the LA Kings said goodbye to a franchise legend while welcoming in a new star. After returning to the playoffs for the first time since 2018, GM Rob Blake continued his work in building the Kings into a team that can continue to make postseason appearances and do damage in […]

lakingsinsider.com

 

[BigKing]

I agree 100%

We should have done what NYR did with Lias and cashed out for 2nd or 3rd’s probably last summer once it became apparent that neither guy likely had a future here. And it was apparent with the play of Lizotte and the Danault signing. I assume they probably looked down that path this summer, but a alot changes in a year and no team is going to give up much for 23 year old AAAA players entering waiver eligibility that if they really want they could claim for nothing.

Now there is a pretty good chance they are going to damage the development of a player who should be in the NHL this season so they can not have egg on their face and lose these guys to waivers.

It was awful asset management and as you said it will continue again next season with more players coming to waivers.

This is not the way it’s supposed to be.

But hey

“Barely old enough to buy a beer”
“Patience”
“I have faith”
“Learn the system in the AHL for 3 years”

Isn’t that what the defenders say?
Just completely ignorance to the waiver rules and when young players (especially high picks) are supposed to either make the team and contribute or be moved on from.

100% this.

Been saying it before last year that Blake needed to be in front of moving some of these prospects before they really lost value but the only one that was moved was Faber: a guy that actually increased his stock during his time with the organization. Management should know a guy isn't going to turn out before other team's scouting staffs.

No GM is perfect in this regard with Lombardi's handling of Hickey probably being his top bag-holding moment. At the same time, he bailed out on O'Sullivan--a move that most of us were not pleased with--and he moved out Quincey which was actually a big deal when you look at the numbers he put up here, age and position. Different stages of team building but we were all very high on Fasching and he turned out to be nothing lost. Linden Vey just needs more time. Jordan Weal just needs to be away from Sutter etc.

Maybe Blake would have moved some of them but he probably has zero f***ing clue what he has with all of his center prospects. Byfield isn't on the table yet but the rest of his drafted forwards--outside of Kaliyev and Kupari kind of--are like WR3/4s on your fantasy football bench that could turn into something if things break right and your scared to drop them for a similar player on the waiver wire.

Faber, on the other hand, plays a position that the Kings have other strong options at in the pipeline and on the roster so he felt comfortable moving him for an impact piece.

 

[Sol]

I think one of the issues many posters on here struggle with comprehending is signings and trades. I think Blake has done extremely well bringing in players outside of the organization.

the trades on paper are really good and favorable but that doesn’t mean that it bodes well for prospects who are actively losing roles and ice-time. It paints a broader pictured that most people for some reason want to ignore, they don’t have faith in the prospects. They wouldn’t be “filling holes” externally if they knew the prospects could fill them.

The whole “barely old enough to buy beer” concept is bullshit and the organization has done moves that correspond to that being the case.

Simply put, the prospects haven’t shown much at all which is why the Kings have made trades. Do you think they’d trade for Fiala if the Kings were good at forward ? They might have traded for a Dman or goalie.

Fiala is a contingency plan on the likelihood the prospects fail. You’d be blind not to see it.

Also, there’s no chance in hell JAD beats out Lizotte. We have Lizotte, we don’t need JAD. He should have been traded already.

 

[TruKingFan]

People are going apeshit for a scrub signing a PTO?? Guess there’s nothing else to criticize this organization for today. LMAO.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

A 26-year-old winger signed to a seven-year contract who has been a consistent point producer is not a contingency plan. This isn't Olli Maatta or Alex Edler we're talking about here.

 

[BringTheReign]

Fiala is a contingency plan on the likelihood the prospects fail. You’d be blind not to see it.

I get your point, but I disagree on the player. I think Danault is the main contingency plan. Our prospect pool has been deep at center, not so much on the wing. I still think we would've been looking for scoring on the wings even if Vilardi or Byfield had shown better by now. Arvidsson is another example, though not as much of one given his shorter contract upon acquisition. Moore is arguably another, but he was more of a surprise via chemistry with those two rather than a targeted top 6 winger.

 

[Herby]

100% this.

Been saying it before last year that Blake needed to be in front of moving some of these prospects before they really lost value but the only one that was moved was Faber: a guy that actually increased his stock during his time with the organization. Management should know a guy isn't going to turn out before other team's scouting staffs.

No GM is perfect in this regard with Lombardi's handling of Hickey probably being his top bag-holding moment. At the same time, he bailed out on O'Sullivan--a move that most of us were not pleased with--and he moved out Quincey which was actually a big deal when you look at the numbers he put up here, age and position. Different stages of team building but we were all very high on Fasching and he turned out to be nothing lost. Linden Vey just needs more time. Jordan Weal just needs to be away from Sutter etc.

Maybe Blake would have moved some of them but he probably has zero f***ing clue what he has with all of his center prospects. Byfield isn't on the table yet but the rest of his drafted forwards--outside of Kaliyev and Kupari kind of--are like WR3/4s on your fantasy football bench that could turn into something if things break right and your scared to drop them for a similar player on the waiver wire.

Faber, on the other hand, plays a position that the Kings have other strong options at in the pipeline and on the roster so he felt comfortable moving him for an impact piece.

The Kings have drafted 8 centers with 1st or 2nd round picks between 2017-2022. Eight! Oh and they also traded another 2nd for another young C, so lets just call it 9.

In that time they also signed an UFA C to a 5 year deal and saw an UDFA emerge as the teams 4th line C. Despite all of that, the Kings have moved ZERO of those 9 centers in deals to address holes at either the NHL level or the pipeline (LH d-man, goaltender, scoring winger) and have seen the trade value for many of these guys fall significantly in the last 1-2 years (Turcotte, Vilardi, JAD specifically) and now Vilardi and JAD have reached the end of the line in development and tough choices will have to be made either to lose them or risk damaging the development of a guy like Kupari.

I just have no idea how this kind of incompetent asset management can be defended. Although I'm sure it won't even be attempted, instead we will just be called "pretend fans" or "Ducks fans"

 

[Fishhead]

The Kings have drafted 8 centers with 1st or 2nd round picks between 2017-2022. Eight! Oh and they also traded another 2nd for another young C, so lets just call it 9.

In that time they also signed an UFA C to a 5 year deal and saw an UDFA emerge as the teams 4th line C. Despite all of that, the Kings have moved ZERO of those 9 centers in deals to address holes at either the NHL level or the pipeline (LH d-man, goaltender, scoring winger) and have seen the trade value for many of these guys fall significantly in the last 1-2 years (Turcotte, Vilardi, JAD specifically) and now Vilardi and JAD have reached the end of the line in development and tough choices will have to be made either to lose them or risk damaging the development of a guy like Kupari.

I just have no idea how this kind of incompetent asset management can be defended. Although I'm sure it won't even be attempted, instead we will just be called "pretend fans" or "Ducks fans"

The drafting 8 centers doesn't bother me, most top players are centers when they are younger, only moving to the wing when they turn professional. More centers are picked early than wingers, despite only 4 being on the ice for a game as opposed to 8 wingers.

The part that is concerning is that none of them have been moved. It demonstrates the challenges with how the organization evaluates prospects. Could you move one too early and miss out on their future? Maybe, but you can't be so gunshy that you don't even try.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Colorado leaned heavily towards centers with their first round picks, going back to 2009: Matt Duchene, Joey Hishon, Nathan MacKinnon, Conner Bleackley, Tyson Jost, Alex Newhook.

Only one of them worked out for them, while the next most successful center they drafted, Duchene, has been moved around to a number of teams. That also doesn't include Ryan O'Reilly, who was dealt to Buffalo for a pile of crap.

In that same timeframe, they've only drafted four defensemen, two of which were impact players in Cale Makar and Bowen Byram. They traded their most recent one, Justin Barron, for Arturri Lehkonen at the trade deadline, and their other first round selected defenseman, Duncan Siemens, was a complete bust.

The Avs have had a number of misses, but they sure made some great selections that will make one overlook those previous mistakes.

It's still too early to determine the status of a number of prospects the Kings have drafted, but it's starting to look bleak for the 2017 and 2019 drafted centers. It's a make or break year for Vilardi, and Turcotte also has to show why he was selected fifth overall, years back, because he hasn't been able to showcase much of his talents over the past couple of seasons. Kupari and Byfield are showing the most promise of all the centers they've selected in the first round since Blake took over in 2017.

 

[KingsFan7824]

I think one of the issues many posters on here struggle with comprehending is signings and trades. I think Blake has done extremely well bringing in players outside of the organization.

the trades on paper are really good and favorable but that doesn’t mean that it bodes well for prospects who are actively losing roles and ice-time. It paints a broader pictured that most people for some reason want to ignore, they don’t have faith in the prospects. They wouldn’t be “filling holes” externally if they knew the prospects could fill them.

The whole “barely old enough to buy beer” concept is bullshit and the organization has done moves that correspond to that being the case.

Simply put, the prospects haven’t shown much at all which is why the Kings have made trades. Do you think they’d trade for Fiala if the Kings were good at forward ? They might have traded for a Dman or goalie.

Fiala is a contingency plan on the likelihood the prospects fail. You’d be blind not to see it.

Also, there’s no chance in hell JAD beats out Lizotte. We have Lizotte, we don’t need JAD. He should have been traded already.

That doesn't necessarily mean that just because you've inferred it. They haven't given their own prospects a chance, but lost faith in them basically the moment they drafted them?

Again it's that same attitude, wording, tone, whatever, of everything having been completed. The history of the future is already known. The prospects are done. Ice time will never change, because it hasn't yet.

 

[BigKing]

The drafting 8 centers doesn't bother me, most top players are centers when they are younger, only moving to the wing when they turn professional. More centers are picked early than wingers, despite only 4 being on the ice for a game as opposed to 8 wingers.

The part that is concerning is that none of them have been moved. It demonstrates the challenges with how the organization evaluates prospects. Could you move one too early and miss out on their future? Maybe, but you can't be so gunshy that you don't even try.

You've got to sell high on some of them since they won't all make the team but you can't fall in love with your picks and hold them until they are worthless.

Ignoring the Fiala contract, you could argue that Blake sold high on Faber since Faber and a mid-low first were able to bring back an over a PPG winger in his prime. Blake probably still makes the trade but what if Faber commits to Blake and LA instead of going back to school: would Blake have been gun shy?

Blake's biggest accomplishment as a GM so far is building a prospect pool. Much like many of us fans, he's probably fallen in love with a lot of them, or at least the idea of them panning out and on the cheap. He was quick to recognize mistakes when he pulled the plug on the 2019 season and then bought-out Dion and Kovy but that is much easier to do when you get the greenlight to ice a horrible hockey team.

You really don't want to be wrong about your 1st round picks but it hasn't been awesome so far for Blake. He's at a point where he probably wishes he shopped Vilardi and especially Turcotte but now he's holding a bag on both and the best he can do is hope to minimize the loss on capital: be it with them becoming contributors to the Kings or by having their stock improve for a better trade return.

 

[Herby]

Colorado leaned heavily towards centers with their first round picks, going back to 2009: Matt Duchene, Joey Hishon, Nathan MacKinnon, Conner Bleackley, Tyson Jost, Alex Newhook.

Only one of them worked out for them, while the next most successful center they drafted, Duchene, has been moved around to a number of teams. That also doesn't include Ryan O'Reilly, who was dealt to Buffalo for a pile of crap.

In that same timeframe, they've only drafted four defensemen, two of which were impact players in Cale Makar and Bowen Byram. They traded their most recent one, Justin Barron, for Arturri Lehkonen at the trade deadline, and their other first round selected defenseman, Duncan Siemens, was a complete bust.

The Avs have had a number of misses, but they sure made some great selections that will make one overlook those previous mistakes.

It's still too early to determine the status of a number of prospects the Kings have drafted, but it's starting to look bleak for the 2017 and 2019 drafted centers. It's a make or break year for Vilardi, and Turcotte also has to show why he was selected fifth overall, years back, because he hasn't been able to showcase much of his talents over the past couple of seasons. Kupari and Byfield are showing the most promise of all the centers they've selected in the first round since Blake took over in 2017.

Busts don't matter if you draft the pre-requisite number of star players needed to move forward from rebuild to having a realistic chance of winning a championship.

Cam Barker, Kyle Beach, Jack Skille
Thomas Hickey, Colten Tuebert, Derek Forbort
Tyson Jost, Conner Bleackley
Angelo Esposito, Simon Despres, Beau Bennett

None of these guys prevented championships from being won, because the teams drafted star players that more than made up for it.

No one was expecting perfection from the Kings, but if you want to be a cup contender building with with those picks, the expectation from 2, 5, ,7, 11 picks should have been at worst 2 very impactful star caliber players, 1 decent player and maybe 1 disappointment/bust. And then you find 1-2 other really good players later in the draft (which I think we have in Kaliyev)

I think assuming the health of Turcotte we have the decent player checked off and the bust checked off. That is a lot of pressure on the other 2 to be big stars. Can the Kings win a cup if QB is PLD and Clarke is John Klingberg? I would say that is probably a mid level to evaluating them (could be better, could be worse).

The drafting 8 centers doesn't bother me, most top players are centers when they are younger, only moving to the wing when they turn professional. More centers are picked early than wingers, despite only 4 being on the ice for a game as opposed to 8 wingers.

The part that is concerning is that none of them have been moved. It demonstrates the challenges with how the organization evaluates prospects. Could you move one too early and miss out on their future? Maybe, but you can't be so gunshy that you don't even try.

The problem with the centers thing is, that none of them other than QB projected as finishers at the NHL level. So when you choose to basically ignore the wing position and the ability to draft 1st round finishers like Boldy and Caufield to draft a certain type of center over and over again it leaves you with a huge organizational hole, which the Kings have had forever. I don't disagree that centers are usually the highest picked, but how many other teams have that big a discrepancy in picking one position? They should have found a way to draft someone the caliber of Caufield or Boldy somewhere over those drafts.

As far as the 2nd part, I said this after listening to the Murray interview, they are just either being stubborn, lying to us to cover up their evaluation mistakes or they are just completely clueless about how other teams are (more successfully) developing high end players. In Glen Murray's interview he said something (and I am paraphrasing) about "Unless you are McDavid you need a good amount of seasoning in the AHL". I almost drove my car into Lake Michigan when I heard it, how can someone with a high position in development just say something that is just so patently false? It's crazy that a fan can spend 10-15 minutes doing a small amount of research to show how false that is, yet a member of development can say it in an interview.

But that is what they believe, they have demonstrated it time and time again with their AHL obsession, which has undoubtedly damaged the ceilings of some of their high picks and caused other former high picks to basically time out until they became waiver eligibility.

 

[Sol]

A 26-year-old winger signed to a seven-year contract who has been a consistent point producer is not a contingency plan. This isn't Olli Maatta or Alex Edler we're talking about here.

That’s just false equivalency right there. Why would they try to move Vilardi to wing since he can’t cut it at center and now he can’t cut it at wing either. Maatta was brought in to fill a spot that was available and Edler was brought here for an edge. They were cheap additions that cost nothing. Just veteran depth vs bringing in a star at a high cost is serious commitment. That’s a lot more than just bringing in cheap depth for the lulz.

I get your point, but I disagree on the player. I think Danault is the main contingency plan. Our prospect pool has been deep at center, not so much on the wing. I still think we would've been looking for scoring on the wings even if Vilardi or Byfield had shown better by now. Arvidsson is another example, though not as much of one given his shorter contract upon acquisition. Moore is arguably another, but he was more of a surprise via chemistry with those two rather than a targeted top 6 winger.

I don’t think the Kings would go for more forwards is my point. They’ve been always trying to players to different positions so they can convert into wingers. That’s the joke about the kings drafting so many centers. Danault to me was so they can rock a Danault Byfield pair down the line at 1c and 2c with one of them being older than the other by a few years. Plus danault had the character the kings looked to fill.

That doesn't necessarily mean that just because you've inferred it. They haven't given their own prospects a chance, but lost faith in them basically the moment they drafted them?

Again it's that same attitude, wording, tone, whatever, of everything having been completed. The history of the future is already known. The prospects are done. Ice time will never change, because it hasn't yet.

Have you ever invested before ? Do you know why people diversify their portfolio? It’s to mitigate the effect of potential loss. Let me simplify it for you.

When you Invest a lot of money into a stock, that price can fluctuate from your by in which is how you gain or lose money from your original investment. And let’s say you invest purely into the tech sector and that sector becomes rough. You usually already have a plan to invest in a different sector to offset potential losses.

Kings have invested in these prospects and they haven’t been looking good regardless of how much time they need. They just haven’t and that’s a fact. Blake who’s main concern is to make a competitive team to save his job will likely go out of his way to invest externally to mitigate losses so the team can be relatively competitive on the chance that the forwards suck.

Hopefully you get it now. Sure maybe with more time they will get better, but none of them except maybe Kupari and Kaliyev have taken a step forward. That’s not close to being good enough with where the kings have been drafting. And whether you like to believe it or not. Those spots at top 6 are sure closing and they’re closing externally not internally. There’s no way you can deny that. And if you agree with that you should ask yourself what the motive of that would be. How can icetime realistically change? Todd has not even shown any signs of equal icetime distribution. It’s HEAVILY skewed top heavy. You except that to change with top 6 getting locked in externally?

 

[lumbergh]

Also, there’s no chance in hell JAD beats out Lizotte. We have Lizotte, we don’t need JAD. He should have been traded already.

Explain why it matters whether JAD is traded? We have so many posters here who talk about these prospects as some kind of depreciating asset. If we don’t want them who does? What are they trading back, a mid round pick? What would be the point of that? How does it help the team to accumulate potential to never realize that potential?

To me there’s no real difference between JAD not making the team and going to the AHL and being lost to waivers. No need to lose sleep over a player who is not going to contribute to the success of the Kings. I hope he makes the team and tears it up, don’t get me wrong. If he doesn’t make it I hope he does well somewhere else.

 

[DoktorJeep]

Who has Blake drafted or developed since being put in charge 5+ years ago?

The best guy drafted as of today is Anderson. And he developed in college, not with the franchise. A guy who’s floor is Scuderi and ceiling is Scuderi. Hopefully he gets a multi year deal at $4 MM after he gets a cup with the Kings.

The every day players are guys who developed are all Lombardi decisions. Kempe, Roy, Moverare.

Blake’s gems are college UFAs and second tier acquisitions. His win record on those moves is probably under .500 when you factor in Kovalchuk, Petersen, etc.

Kaliyev is his best pure pick and development guy. His best reward is playing with Lizotte and Lemieux for 11 minutes a game, since he isn’t on special teams for more than 30 secs a game.

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

Who has Blake drafted or developed since being put in charge 5+ years ago?

The best guy drafted as of today is Anderson. And he developed in college, not with the franchise. A guy who’s floor is Scuderi and ceiling is Scuderi. Hopefully he gets a multi year deal at $4 MM after he gets a cup with the Kings.

The every day players are guys who developed are all Lombardi decisions. Kempe, Roy, Moverare.

Blake’s gems are college UFAs and second tier acquisitions. His win record on those moves is probably under .500 when you factor in Kovalchuk, Petersen, etc.

Kaliyev is his best pure pick and development guy. His best reward is playing with Lizotte and Lemieux for 11 minutes a game, since he isn’t on special teams for more than 30 secs a game.

Bookmarked for loads of laughs in 1-2 years I'm guessing.

 

[DoktorJeep]

Bookmarked for loads of laughs in 1-2 years I'm guessing.

Remind me of the funny bookmarks you’ve saved from 5 years ago.

 

[cyclones22]

Kaliyev is his best pure pick and development guy. His best reward is playing with Lizotte and Lemieux for 11 minutes a game, since he isn’t on special teams for more than 30 secs a game.

The reason Arty's shooting percentage is so low is because most of the shot opportunities he gets on this line are from bad angles outside the circles, because cycle and grind baby. Even the best shooters are going to have difficulty scoring goals from those areas of the ice. He should have been on the 1st PP. Think of all that wasted ice time given to Brown and IA on that unit. Good grief.

 

[DoktorJeep]

The reason Arty's shooting percentage is so low is because most of the shot opportunities he gets on this line are from bad angles outside the circles, because cycle and grind baby. Even the best shooters are going to have difficulty scoring goals from those areas of the ice. He should have been on the 1st PP. Think of all that wasted ice time given to Brown and IA on that unit. Good grief.

Based on his showings, I can’t say the Kings would significantly improve with Kaliyev getting more minutes. He can’t beat out 18-20 goal scorers ahead of him in the lineup. If every goal matters, games are won and loss on the margins. You have to basically put aside any chance of a kid breaking out unless they’re a star before 21 years old.

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

Remind me of the funny bookmarks you’ve saved from 5 years ago.

Can't, only discovered the bookmark function this year ... lots of great material on slow cook.

 

[Schmooley]

Can't, only discovered the bookmark function this year ... lots of great material on slow cook.

Come on Axl get a life. Waiting for gotcha moments on a message board so you can defend multi millionaire Rob Blake from meaningless criticism is no way to spend your days.

 

[DoktorJeep]

Come on Axl get a life. Waiting for gotcha moments on a message board so you can defend multi millionaire Rob Blake from meaningless criticism is no way to spend your days.

No, please, all zoos need a chimp sanctuary.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Who has Blake drafted or developed since being put in charge 5+ years ago?

The best guy drafted as of today is Anderson. And he developed in college, not with the franchise. A guy who’s floor is Scuderi and ceiling is Scuderi. Hopefully he gets a multi year deal at $4 MM after he gets a cup with the Kings.

The every day players are guys who developed are all Lombardi decisions. Kempe, Roy, Moverare.

Blake’s gems are college UFAs and second tier acquisitions. His win record on those moves is probably under .500 when you factor in Kovalchuk, Petersen, etc.

Kaliyev is his best pure pick and development guy. His best reward is playing with Lizotte and Lemieux for 11 minutes a game, since he isn’t on special teams for more than 30 secs a game.

From this past season's roster, the guys Rob Blake added to the team included: Danault, Arvidsson, Moore, Iafallo, Kaliyev, Byfield, Durzi, Lizotte, Grundstrom, Lemieux, Vilardi, Athanasiou, Andersson, Anderson, Edler, Maatta, Spence, Bjornfot, Petersen.

That doesn't include the addition of Fiala. But I guess the Kovalchuk signing on its own is enough in your mind to consider him below average? You certainly show no bias whatsoever in your disdain for Rob Blake.

 

[DoktorJeep]

From this past season's roster, the guys Rob Blake added to the team included: Danault, Arvidsson, Moore, Iafallo, Kaliyev, Byfield, Durzi, Lizotte, Grundstrom, Lemieux, Vilardi, Athanasiou, Andersson, Anderson, Edler, Maatta, Spence, Bjornfot, Petersen.

That doesn't include the addition of Fiala. But I guess the Kovalchuk signing on its own is enough in your mind to consider him below average? You certainly show no bias whatsoever.

This is a sports discussion, so bias isn’t a flaw. Those are a lot of words to not answer who has Blake drafted and developed into everyday players.

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

Come on Axl get a life. Waiting for gotcha moments on a message board so you can defend multi millionaire Rob Blake from meaningless criticism is no way to spend your days.

Neither is endless whining and crying over the best team we've had in years...but that doesn't stop a large majority of the experts on this board.