Speculation: LA Kings News, Rumors, Roster Thread part VII

[Raccoon Jesus]

In 10.5 minutes of PP time, Tkachev had as many PP assists--or more--than the following players who got MUCh more than him:

Danault
Brown
Roy
Kupari
Spence
Moore
Athanasiou
Byfield
Walker
Andersson
Edler
Maatta
Grundstrom
Vilardi

 

[Schmooley]

Lemieux and Kupari out. Byfield and Grundstorm in

Neither Lemieux nor Kupari looked particularly good last game but its probably really hard to get into a game when you play so little. Like 6 minutes into a period without getting a shift its gonna be hard to get into the flow.
With that said Kupari was starting to look better as a winger and Lemieux has been shaky since his return to the lineup.

 

[driller1]

This is an approach entirely focused on 2022 at the expense of the future.

And treating your 2nd overall scoring winger like a depth checker isn't 'merit', it's square peg-round holing a prospect and when it doesn't fit you throw away the square peg instead of finding the right fit.

Can you imagine Edmonton trying McDavid out on line 3 and holding PP time hostage until he showed he could check effectively? Of course not, because its' a f***ing hilariously stupid thought.

Of course anyone who has a different opinion than you has a "f***ing hilariously stupid thought." Completely dismissive and disrespectful.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you call the 3rd line the first line or anything else. Their job is to play better hockey than their opponent. I guarantee if you put McDavid on the "3rd Line" he'd absolutely annihilate the opposition.

I reject the notion the 3rd Line equates to a checking line anymore. That is just antiquated 2010-2015 Sutter-esque thinking. If you read the Athletic (which I believe you do), then there's a great article that discusses why scoring is up in the NHL. One of the changes the NHL has seen in recently is that there is a Top-9 that is tasked with scoring and a 4th line that is roughly equivalent to what 3rd lines used to be in the past.

The question question should be: Is Byfield beating the guy in front of him consistently? Given the lower quality of competition of the 3rd lines that he's been playing against, one would hope that the answer would be yes. Unfortunately he is young and hasn't gotten there.

You formerly beat the drum that Brown and AA were holding Byfield down. Fine, get him new linemates. How about a pair of first round picks in Kupari and Vilardi? Doesn't matter who the line mates are, the fact of the matter is that Byfield wasn't beating the guy lining up from him. This has nothing to do with whatever garbage you're spewing about "checking". It's about beating the guy you are facing off against.

You think if we put Kopitar or Danault on the "3rd Line" they would struggle? No. They would utterly dominate the competition.

It's not like the Kings change systems from Top-6 to Bottom-6. Everyone plays the same system. No one on our team "checks" like we did in 2012. The only difference in Top 6 and Bottom 6 is that the Top 6 is more skilled and expected to put more pucks in the net.

And the Top 6 does plenty of "checking" and routinely gets the tough D-zone starts by virtue of Kopi and Danault being solid defensive players.

Byfield was given soft deployment and soft competition and couldn't excel.

 

[Sol]

In 10.5 minutes of PP time, Tkachev had as many PP assists--or more--than the following players who got MUCh more than him:

Danault
Brown
Roy
Kupari
Spence
Moore
Athanasiou
Byfield
Walker
Andersson
Edler
Maatta
Grundstrom
Vilardi

That’s so f***ed up. Any idea what he’s doing right now ?

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Even if they were, that wouldn't be an indictment of their development unless you're being a hypocrite.

You're a huge Zegras fan, and Anaheim is in the tank despite where he is. Jack Hughes, anyone? Caufield, both bad and great version, neither has had an impact on MTL, but he couldnt' do jack shit until he got some confidence and minutes from the org.

And on the flipside, you're a huge Boldy fan--he's on a successful team getting 2W minutes. And you already know about Beniers, of course.

Meanwhile, Lafreniere was getting top-6 time on an eastern contender despite lack of production performance. Ditto Kakko. Kirby Dach, same scenario, but basement team now.

Whether the roles are played by the picks or not is pretty clearly independent of prospect ability and development, no? These guys are still getting their minutes because their coaches know they need big touches, offensive/PP time, and puck rhythm regardless of how their teams are doing and your suggestion that none of these prospects are carrying the Kings so its their own fault has no basis in reality around the NHL. They always at least get a shot and deployment commensurate with their skillsets.

If I am reading this right, then no, they are not getting touches/minutes because their coaches no they need them, they are getting touches and minutes because they are producing while getting them, Lafreniere however the hell you spell his name, spent a shit ton time on the 3rd line, so has Dach, and Kakko..... they were given top 6 minutes, but when it didn't work, aka they weren't producing, they got bumped down for guys that were.

Boldy, Zegras, Beniers in his short time, Hughes, Mercer, Caufield, are getting top six minutes AND producing but their teams are shit (exception of Minnesota) so there are no hard expectations of playoffs or not etc....different atmosphere.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

In 10.5 minutes of PP time, Tkachev had as many PP assists--or more--than the following players who got MUCh more than him:

Danault
Brown
Roy
Kupari
Spence
Moore
Athanasiou
Byfield
Walker
Andersson
Edler
Maatta
Grundstrom
Vilardi

Which means f*** all, 10 minutes of a 4,920 minute season.....

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Of course anyone who has a different opinion than you has a "f***ing hilariously stupid thought." Completely dismissive and disrespectful.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you call the 3rd line the first line or anything else. Their job is to play better hockey than their opponent. I guarantee if you put McDavid on the "3rd Line" he'd absolutely annihilate the opposition.

I reject the notion the 3rd Line equates to a checking line anymore. That is just antiquated 2010-2015 Sutter-esque thinking. If you read the Athletic (which I believe you do), then there's a great article that discusses why scoring is up in the NHL. One of the changes the NHL has seen in recently is that there is a Top-9 that is tasked with scoring and a 4th line that is roughly equivalent to what 3rd lines used to be in the past.

The question question should be: Is Byfield beating the guy in front of him consistently? Given the lower quality of competition of the 3rd lines that he's been playing against, one would hope that the answer would be yes. Unfortunately he is young and hasn't gotten there.

You formerly beat the drum that Brown and AA were holding Byfield down. Fine, get him new linemates. How about a pair of first round picks in Kupari and Vilardi? Doesn't matter who the line mates are, the fact of the matter is that Byfield wasn't beating the guy lining up from him. This has nothing to do with whatever garbage you're spewing about "checking". It's about beating the guy you are facing off against.

You think if we put Kopitar or Danault on the "3rd Line" they would struggle? No. They would utterly dominate the competition.

It's not like the Kings change systems from Top-6 to Bottom-6. Everyone plays the same system. No one on our team "checks" like we did in 2012. The only difference in Top 6 and Bottom 6 is that the Top 6 is more skilled and expected to put more pucks in the net.

And the Top 6 does plenty of "checking" and routinely gets the tough D-zone starts by virtue of Kopi and Danault being solid defensive players.

Byfield was given soft deployment and soft competition and couldn't excel.

Holy misread batman. Maybe check what that was in reference to? It wasn't your thought, it was a hypothetical.

And yeah, Byfield struggled getting anything going. I agree that most NHL teams are going 'top 9', there isn't really a Pahlsson-esque shutdown 3rd line anymore, yet on the Kings, even our leading scorer since January couldn't get going on the 3rd line. Any thoughts on why?

The point was that other teams are letting their scoring players be scoring players--giving them top 6 minutes and PP time. No one is getting in a rhythm playing every 5th shift at best--not even our current top sixers when they were in the same boat. And the point about it being a meritocracy is laughable given how long it took them to demote Iafallo and Brown and the similar production they provided when moved down as well.

You're riding me calling it 2015 antiquated thinking--yet this team is doubling down on vets despite them getting crushed in their minutes. the team is doubling down on rookies 'earning it' by checking rather than putting them in scoring situations and getting into a rhythm. The team is doubling down on the present at the expense of the future. Plenty of successful teams around the league are giving their kids plenty of time to sort it out--yet we're preventing our bluechippers from playing ANY games right now because reasons, I guess TM and Blake are smarter than everyone else.

The third line hasn't been scoring no matter WHO is on it so making Byfield the scapegoat for all that ails it is silly, and benching him rather than developing him is symbolic of a coach who cannot exhibit any sort of creative thinking, and an organization who cannot handle or tolerate diversity of skillsets. Example--keep bringing in scoring russians, putting them on the 4th line, cutting their scoring/pp time because they don't check well, and then wondering why they aren't checking or producing when you knew exactly what they were in the first f***ing place.

 

[Bandit]

Chicago went to OT last night, we all know what that means.

 

[Peter James Bond II]

Enjoy reading the discussion and viewpoints....and what the answers should be.

It just shows how lucky the Kings were to get Brown, Quick, Doughty and Kopitar - all who were able to make impacts at D+0, D+1, D+2 and form a foundation that would last 10+ years. They honeslty should have done much much better in that 2003 draft and got better players than Tambellini and Boyle, after Brown. They could have even had 1 or 2 more homeruns.

You'd think a few of: Byfield, Turcotte, Vilardi, Kupari would be able to make some kind of imapct by now, but they are not. Granted, QB is 19. It's like you can hope Clarke and / or Chromiak can be ones that can make bigger impacts than the others have, thus far. Arty has progressed very much, from his draft day, yet still has a ways to go. Part of it, will be how he's used...or misused. No question he needs to be top 6 and PP1 by next year, or he will stagnate.

The best development for the Kings - are players that do not need any development...sadly.
Kopitar, Brown, Quick and Doughty did not need any. Any players the Kings need to develop,
they do not do the best job at.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Neither Lemieux nor Kupari looked particularly good last game but its probably really hard to get into a game when you play so little. Like 6 minutes into a period without getting a shift its gonna be hard to get into the flow.
With that said Kupari was starting to look better as a winger and Lemieux has been shaky since his return to the lineup.

Agree with Lemieux coming out, meh on Kupari, I still love what he brings.....

 

[KingsHockey24]

In 10.5 minutes of PP time, Tkachev had as many PP assists--or more--than the following players who got MUCh more than him:

Danault
Brown
Roy
Kupari
Spence
Moore
Athanasiou
Byfield
Walker
Andersson
Edler
Maatta
Grundstrom
Vilardi

He'll put up 40+ somewhere next season if he gets another NHL opportunity.

 

[Schmooley]

Agree with Lemieux coming out, meh on Kupari, I still love what he brings.....

Yea I agree. I like Kupari. He is at his best when he plays physical and seems like since hes back to center hes been thinking a little more and trying to play an east/west skill game. North/south power forward type winger may be his future as he fills out. He still looks like a child.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Enjoy reading the discussion and viewpoints....and what the answers should be.

It just shows how lucky the Kings were to get Brown, Quick, Doughty and Kopitar - all who were able to make impacts at D+0, D+1, D+2 and form a foundation that would last 10+ years. They honeslty should have done much much better in that 2003 draft and got better players than Tambellini and Boyle, after Brown. They could have even had 1 or 2 more homeruns.

You'd think a few of: Byfield, Turcotte, Vilardi, Kupari would be able to make some kind of imapct by now, but they are not. Granted, QB is 19. It's like you can hope Clarke and / or Chromiak can be ones that can make bigger impacts than the others have, thus far. Arty has progressed very much, from his draft day, yet still has a ways to go. Part of it, will be how he's used...or misused. No question he needs to be top 6 and PP1 by next year, or he will stagnate.

The best development for the Kings - are players that do not need any development...sadly.
Kopitar, Brown, Quick and Doughty did not need any. Any players the Kings need to develop,
they do not do the best job at.

I gotta laugh at that.....it completely dismisses the necessary steps needed to play in the NHL.....do you really believe that any player, let alone ELITE players in any sport, show up for an hour of practice, hit the gym, watch 30 min of video and then, goes home? Is that what people believe?

 

[redcard]

AHL Stats this season

Vilardi 39 GP 15 G 23 A 38 P 0.97 PPG
JAD 51 GP 23 G 23 A 46 P 0.90 PPG
Tkachev 39 GP 7 G 22 A 29 P 0.74 PPG
Fagemo 60 GP 27 G 16 A 43 P 0.72 PPG

I really don't think Tkachev would have produced any better at the NHL level than the guys he failed to outproduce at the AHL level. It was a good signing to take a chance on the guy, but I'm not too concerned with him not getting a longer look.

 

[tny760]

AHL Stats this season

Vilardi 39 GP 15 G 23 A 38 P 0.97 PPG
JAD 51 GP 23 G 23 A 46 P 0.90 PPG
Tkachev 39 GP 7 G 22 A 29 P 0.74 PPG
Fagemo 60 GP 27 G 16 A 43 P 0.72 PPG

I really don't think Tkachev would have produced any better at the NHL level than the guys he failed to outproduce at the AHL level. It was a good signing to take a chance on the guy, but I'm not too concerned with him not getting a longer look.

i mean honestly what did we learn from his 4 games up?

a few power play minutes then banished to the nether realm.. i guess he hasn't been healthy(?) given he only played 39 games but i don't really follow ontario's lineups to know why

not really much of a chance taken in my opinion, i thought he served a purpose as the distributor on the PP but clearly we don't understand the wisdom of sturm/tmac. i'm just not a fan of closing the book on guys after such small samples, we just stole a year of SKA paychecks from the guy basically

 

[KingsFan7824]

He'll put up 40+ somewhere next season if he gets another NHL opportunity.

He doesn't even get into every game at the AHL level. Unless he's hurt, I don't know. He was never even drafted. Not that means you suck, but he was over here in Canadian juniors. There has to be something missing from his game. Again, unless the Kings are just incompetent. Pavel Rosa scored 2 goals in his first ever game, right? Then disappeared forever. No team in the league desperate for talent is going to do something about that?

 

[driller1]

The point was that other teams are letting their scoring players be scoring players--giving them top 6 minutes and PP time. No one is getting in a rhythm playing every 5th shift at best--not even our current top sixers when they were in the same boat. And the point about it being a meritocracy is laughable given how long it took them to demote Iafallo and Brown and the similar production they provided when moved down as well.

You're riding me calling it 2015 antiquated thinking--yet this team is doubling down on vets despite them getting crushed in their minutes. the team is doubling down on rookies 'earning it' by checking rather than putting them in scoring situations and getting into a rhythm. The team is doubling down on the present at the expense of the future. Plenty of successful teams around the league are giving their kids plenty of time to sort it out--yet we're preventing our bluechippers from playing ANY games right now because reasons, I guess TM and Blake are smarter than everyone else.

The third line hasn't been scoring no matter WHO is on it so making Byfield the scapegoat for all that ails it is silly, and benching him rather than developing him is symbolic of a coach who cannot exhibit any sort of creative thinking, and an organization who cannot handle or tolerate diversity of skillsets. Example--keep bringing in scoring russians, putting them on the 4th line, cutting their scoring/pp time because they don't check well, and then wondering why they aren't checking or producing when you knew exactly what they were in the first f***ing place.

I still don't understand your point about "'earning it' by checking rather than putting them in scoring situations." Do you agree or disagree with my statement "Kopi and Danault are taking most of the d-zone draws and matching the opponents best lines (ie McDavid/Drai)?" If Byfield is getting offensive zone starts against lesser opponents, how is that not "putting them in scoring situations?" That is literally the definition of putting him in scoring situations and he still can't get the job done. I hope he improves because God knows our future is dependent on him.

The third line has improved dramatically with Iafallo/Lizotte/Brown. Granted, one can say small sample size, but at least they aren't getting caved in. In fact, their Corsi and advanced stats are stellar. So if Lizotte can out-chance the opposition on the 3rd line with Dustin "Geriatric" Brown as his sidekick, why can't Byfield?

 

[SFKingshomer]

Everytime Kupari, Vilardi, Turcotte, and Byfield's underwhelming development is brought up, Kempe should also be brought up. Maybe we should have traded him because he was mediocre for so long? It took moving him back to wing and the right linemates for him to succeed. Patience is always key...

 

[johnjm22]

Tkachev was absolutely terrible in his NHL games this season.

 

[Schrute farms]

I don't understand all the love for Tkachev. Maybe it's simply the grass being greener on him. What i saw of him in the preseason / early games was a guy who made a couple very nifty PP passes...but otherwise was invisible. Watching him I kept thinking the emergency vehicle better be warmed up because that little toothpick is eventually gonna get shattered.

 

[YAYSAY]

If I am reading this right, then no, they are not getting touches/minutes because their coaches no they need them, they are getting touches and minutes because they are producing while getting them, Lafreniere however the hell you spell his name, spent a shit ton time on the 3rd line, so has Dach, and Kakko..... they were given top 6 minutes, but when it didn't work, aka they weren't producing, they got bumped down for guys that were.

Boldy, Zegras, Beniers in his short time, Hughes, Mercer, Caufield, are getting top six minutes AND producing but their teams are shit (exception of Minnesota) so there are no hard expectations of playoffs or not etc....different atmosphere.

What I'd say to that is that those players will likely be impact players for their teams much sooner than any of our prospects, at least in terms of our forwards, I think everyone is pleased with our D rookies. Kings are a better team yes, but we're better mostly on the backs of veterans, what's gonna happen when Kopitar regresses even further or Danault doesn't score 25 again? By that time those other prospects will likely be superstars and our prospects will be far behind them development wise. I think it's reasonable to have a fear that they sacrificed a year that should have been used for developing the large number of prospects in the organization for a likely 1st round exit. The kings just haven't proved that can reliably develop forwards into stars

 

[All The Kings Men]

I don't understand all the love for Tkachev. Maybe it's simply the grass being greener on him. What i saw of him in the preseason / early games was a guy who made a couple very nifty PP passes...but otherwise was invisible. Watching him I kept thinking the emergency vehicle better be warmed up because that little toothpick is eventually gonna get shattered.

Happiness is based on expectations and sometimes expectations can be inflated by people hoping to capitalize on steering conversations and corralling attention in places it perhaps wouldn't otherwise be directed.... *cough*

 

[SmytheKing]

Everytime Kupari, Vilardi, Turcotte, and Byfield's underwhelming development is brought up, Kempe should also be brought up. Maybe we should have traded him because he was mediocre for so long? It took moving him back to wing and the right linemates for him to succeed. Patience is always key...

I think it bears mentioning that Kempe has been on Kopitar's wing for 75% of his shifts.

Line Combinations - Frozen Tools

NHL line combinations, NHL lineups from dobberhockey.com

frozenpool.dobbersports.com

Last year it was 25% of the time.

Line Combinations - Frozen Tools

NHL line combinations, NHL lineups from dobberhockey.com

frozenpool.dobbersports.com

Kopitar has a loooooooooooong career where you can see him effectively making his wingers look like 25+ goal scorers. From Dustin Brown to Patrick O'Sullivan, he's made a lot of folks a lot of money. I know Kempe has been better this year than any other, but has his general game changed all that much?

My point is that did his season this year have to do with development or playing with the best forward the Kings have had in 20+ years?

 

[All The Kings Men]

My point is that did his season this year have to do with development or playing with the best forward the Kings have had in 20+ years?

Why can't it be both?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I still don't understand your point about "'earning it' by checking rather than putting them in scoring situations." Do you agree or disagree with my statement "Kopi and Danault are taking most of the d-zone draws and matching the opponents best lines (ie McDavid/Drai)?" If Byfield is getting offensive zone starts against lesser opponents, how is that not "putting them in scoring situations?" That is literally the definition of putting him in scoring situations and he still can't get the job done. I hope he improves because God knows our future is dependent on him.

The third line has improved dramatically with Iafallo/Lizotte/Brown. Granted, one can say small sample size, but at least they aren't getting caved in. In fact, their Corsi and advanced stats are stellar. So if Lizotte can out-chance the opposition on the 3rd line with Dustin "Geriatric" Brown as his sidekick, why can't Byfield?

Yeah, I agree, Kopi and Danault are eating the lion's share of the toughest minutes. He's not getting put in scoring situations because he's still barely getting any playing time to get in a rhythm and no PP time unless it's basically on accident. What other franchise would do that to a blue chip offensive player? QBs last 5 games found him playing 13, 10.5, 15, 10, 11 minutes; in contrast, Lizotte's played more in that spot last game than QB has literally all year, 16:42.

One CAN say small sample size and will, because if you recall, QB's first game was vs. Powerhouse Colorado and he and his line were tops on the team with nearly 70% CF%, 87.55 xGF%, 90% SCF%. He held nearly those lines for most of January. So I'm glad the third line has come thru vs. a couple of non-playoff teams, but if you're going to say those guys did, you can't say Byfield "can't," since he's literally done it vs. the best team in the league and with some duration as well.

The point in the end is here we are basically playing playoff games and every single one of the franchise's blue chip offensive players is rotting on either a bottom line or out of the lineup instead of getting PP time/scoring time or, at worst, big AHL playing time. THey're stuck in limbo/purgatory so we can smoke-and-mirrors-thru-vets our way to a quick playoff exit with no real experience of note for the kids. Its okay if you don't have a problem with that, I see your reasoning, but I have a big problem with the kids' usage, Blake and TM are being arrogant/outsmarting themselves at best. And they're going to pay for that experience debt next year when they're like "oh the kids aren't ready."