LA KINGS 2023/4 Regular season discussion

[Nasti]

He has been the best forward. He wins most 50/50 puck battles. He carries the puck with authority thru the neutral zone - something he could barely do last season. His d-zone hygiene is almost perfect - where last year it was so so. He seems a step faster this season also. I was calling him a passenger and too deferential even at the beginning of this season... but after a couple of weeks it was blatantly obvious his balls had dropped. I think they should move him to center and let him grow into the 2C.. esp since PLD is clearly a disaster.

If it was me, I’d put him in Kopitar’s role now. Let him grow into what he’s supposed to be. Anything else and they’re wasting time as well as his potential.

 

[BigKing]

How good he will be defensively is up for debate on Clarke, but there shouldn't be much debate that he has easy 60 point potential when manning the point on PP1. He looks for more than just slapshots too so he easily has the potential to eclipse Doughty's top goal scoring season of 16.

 

[AbsentMojo]

If it was me, I’d put him in Kopitar’s role now. Let him grow into what he’s supposed to be. Anything else and they’re wasting time as well as his potential.

First they have to stop pretending they are contending before a bold move like that would happen.. in the meantime, give him a line and stick with it vs "doing the Todd" which is to try it for 2 games and then go back to the tried and true that wasnt working but is safe.

 

[Schmooley]

First they have to stop pretending they are contending before a bold move like that would happen.. in the meantime, give him a line and stick with it vs "doing the Todd" which is to try it for 2 games and then go back to the tried and true that wasnt working but is safe.

Todd moving Byfield around has nothing to do with Byfield. He wanted to get Dubois going when he made that change. Now Byfield is still on the wing because it benefits Kopitar.

 

[EmuRidingLuffy]

If it was me, I’d put him in Kopitar’s role now. Let him grow into what he’s supposed to be. Anything else and they’re wasting time as well as his potential.

Only way that happens is if Kopitar gets injured ala Doughty a couple years ago ... which honestly would be one of the best things for the team, so Todd/next coach is forced to put either PLD or QB as 1C/2C to see what happens.

 

[AbsentMojo]

Todd moving Byfield around has nothing to do with Byfield. He wanted to get Dubois going when he made that change. Now Byfield is still on the wing because it benefits Kopitar.

honestly who knows whats really going through their minds... it all smacks of desperation and a comedy of errors. Blake hands Clodd a grenade with the pin pulled (PLD) and goes here - have at it... lets see what you can do with an impossible situation. Then you have Todd who is so methodical and hesitant to change - that he goes outside his comfort zone and makes a change that to me seemed decent .. get the dud going and at same time give Byfield a chance to shine as center (even if it wasnt primary reason). That to me is creative and is a different look - but no, he just cant be that guy.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Byfield and Clarke might outperform Kopitar and Doughty today, but can they outperform Kopitar and Doughty from 2012? Because that's what it takes to win. I would feel a lot better about this team if they had Faber right now, an all-situations 1D. He's basically what Doughty was in 2010. I'm not sure Clarke has that defensive prowess. That's not to say that Byfield and Clarke aren't going to become 1C and 1D guys soon, though.

For once, I'm excited to see Dom's worst contracts in the league. We might actually deserve the top spot this year! And we might have a couple in the top 10 to boot.

Yeah if we had Faber AND Clarke you'd have a PP1 and PK1 guy and two top pairing guys. Pain.

However, you know I think the world of Kopitar--Byfield is a two-way C for certain and he's learning from him. I think his ceiling is still sky high. COULD he outperform 2012 Kopitar? I think he could. I almost can't wait to see a 24-25 year old Byfield.

Clarke--I don't think he can outperform 2012 Doughty. He'll score more, but the hockey world at large undersells prime Doughty defense. He was a top-5 shutdown guy. However, find him the right safety blanket at LHD, and I don't see any reason you couldn't have a better top pairing than 2012.

Regardless it's about the parts around them and we're entering no mans land with no cap or assets. It's gonna be a rough ride no matter how those two core guys perform.

 

[YAYSAY]

Yeah if we had Faber AND Clarke you'd have a PP1 and PK1 guy and two top pairing guys. Pain.

Imagine that with Byfield and Vilardi as the 1C and 1W, even more pain.
Just really depressing that all the pieces were there to have a good foundation and now they're gone, and they basically have to restart. Kings best hope is to have a draft like the Stars did a few years ago.

 

[Mooselum]

Byfield and Clarke might outperform Kopitar and Doughty today, but can they outperform Kopitar and Doughty from 2012? Because that's what it takes to win. I would feel a lot better about this team if they had Faber right now, an all-situations 1D. He's basically what Doughty was in 2010. I'm not sure Clarke has that defensive prowess. That's not to say that Byfield and Clarke aren't going to become 1C and 1D guys soon, though.

For once, I'm excited to see Dom's worst contracts in the league. We might actually deserve the top spot this year! And we might have a couple in the top 10 to boot.

Just to clarify - Yes I think they could outperform the duo from 2012, though I am talking strictly related to offense. I think that win conditions vary from team to team so we don't need this set pillar of players to be successful, but a system that works for most of them, and an aggressive forecheck doesn't mean they can't be focused on structure and details.

Fair point regarding Faber but I don't think he was going to end up signing here and would end up in MINN anyway for personal preference. I like the player we got back, but value definitely a concern and would like that 1st back.

Re: Contract - I still don't put most of the fault on Dubois (this camp is very small, I know!), and question how we handle players that have skills that make them successful outside of the system we play. A "lack of interest" to me is asking him to play a passive game, giving him wingers that provide nothing offensively, and then wonder why don't have that physical facet in his game anymore or why he can't create. Too much of an ask for me.

Send him all out on an aggressive forecheck as the 1F and then complain about his compete level! It makes me concerned that our developed players can play in other systems when they move on, but the reverse always has a caveat...

 

[Schmooley]

Imagine that with Byfield and Vilardi as the 1C and 1W, even more pain.
Just really depressing that all the pieces were there to have a good foundation and now they're gone, and they basically have to restart. Kings best hope is to have a draft like the Stars did a few years ago.

They likely have top picks from 2022 (though a weak draft) and 2023 in the mix also as they would have been a lottery team until this coming draft.

 

[Herby]

I agree with the idea that the team probably won’t contend again for a long time, but I don’t see how Byfield is still being underrated by some of you. Will he be a HOF center? Who knows? But man, you guys are underselling his progress.

Well you kind of need a Hall of Fame type center to be a consistent contending team.

I think he can be a very good secondary piece, like a Patrick Sharp or a Jeff Carter.

But a Kopitar, Toews, Crosby, Stamkos, McKinnon?

Very unlikely to reach that level.

Don’t have that type of center? Cool, don’t end your rebuild until you do.

 

[AbsentMojo]

Well you kind of need a Hall of Fame type center to be a consistent contending team.

I think he can be a very good secondary piece, like a Patrick Sharp or a Jeff Carter.

But a Kopitar, Toews, Crosby, Stamkos, McKinnon?

Very unlikely to reach that level.

Don’t have that type of center? Cool, don’t end your rebuild until you do.

Kopitar has only been PPG once in that outlier 2017-18 season.. I think QB can match Kopi scoring output eventually and maybe surpass it. This season QB on pace for 60 points.. .75 PPG. He looks solid on D as well. So what then prevents him from being a 1C assuming he stays as consistent and for sake of argument matches Kopi's offensive output?

 

[bland]

Well you kind of need a Hall of Fame type center to be a consistent contending team.

I think he can be a very good secondary piece, like a Patrick Sharp or a Jeff Carter.

But a Kopitar, Toews, Crosby, Stamkos, McKinnon?

Very unlikely to reach that level.

Don’t have that type of center? Cool, don’t end your rebuild until you do.

Kopitar and Toews are making the Hall because of the sum of their achievements, not their high water levels of play.

It is VERY likely that Byfield's high-end exceeds Kopitar's. Let's face it, and I know this upsets some, but the reality is that Anze was inside the top 10 of centers maybe only two seasons of his entire career. He was never an upper echelon player, just an incredibly consistent, ultra reliable 2nd tier center for a very long time who also played a huge role in two Cup wins on two incredibly deep teams.

I don't think the bar is set to astronomic heights there.

 

[LAKings88]

Byfield has a long way to go to accomplish half of what Kopi has.

 

[Bandit]

Byfield has a long way to go to accomplish half of what Kopi has.

So did Kopitar at age 21.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Kopitar and Toews are making the Hall because of the sum of their achievements, not their high water levels of play.

It is VERY likely that Byfield's high-end exceeds Kopitar's. Let's face it, and I know this upsets some, but the reality is that Anze was inside the top 10 of centers maybe only two seasons of his entire career. He was never an upper echelon player, just an incredibly consistent, ultra reliable 2nd tier center for a very long time who also played a huge role in two Cup wins on two incredibly deep teams.

I don't think the bar is set to astronomic heights there.

YEAH just a 20 year hall of fame 2 selke conn smythe caliber career

no big deal

don't undersell longevity

 

[AbsentMojo]

I doubt anyone is saying QB can be compared to Kopi's legacy. My point is that QB has 1C ceiling and that Kopi's offensive numbers are not that hard to eclipse.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I doubt anyone is saying QB can be compared to Kopi's legacy. My point is that QB has 1C ceiling and that Kopi's offensive numbers are not that hard to eclipse.

High end? Absolutely.

Just zero reason for a bullshit potshot at kopitar calling it a low bar.

One doesn't have to make a stupid f***ing take to make another point.

 

[AbsentMojo]

High end? Absolutely.

Just zero reason for a bullshit potshot at kopitar calling it a low bar.

One doesn't have to make a stupid f***ing take to make another point.

Got it. I was trying to start a little dialog with Herby about him implying QB isnt a *possible* 1C and to hash that out a bit... My only hope right now is 55 and 92.

 

[Herby]

Kopitar has only been PPG once in that outlier 2017-18 season.. I think QB can match Kopi scoring output eventually and maybe surpass it. This season QB on pace for 60 points.. .75 PPG. He looks solid on D as well. So what then prevents him from being a 1C assuming he stays as consistent and for sake of argument matches Kopi's offensive output?

At the same age Kopitar was coming off his third consecutive season as a 1C. Byfield has not shown he can even effectively play the C position, much less at the level Kopitar did.

Kopitar never had elite linemates, he played for defensive oriented coaches for most of his career, in an era where scoring was less than it is now. If we are only going to talk about points can we say Fiala is as good as Kopitar, he has put up just as many points.

Kopitar will go down as the 2nd best defensive forward of his era, suffering through a Brad Park like situation where he struggled to win the hardware because the GOAT defensive forward played at the same time.

Kopitar’s defensive ability coupled with his offense made him as valuable as 100 point centers who weren’t as good defensively. I’m sorry but I just don’t see Byfield reaching that kind of level. A Carter or Sharp who can be a championship caliber 2C? Sure, a franchise superstar 1C like Kopitar, Mac, Stamkos, Crosby, Toews? I really doubt it.

 

[AbsentMojo]

At the same age Kopitar was coming off his third consecutive season as a 1C. Byfield has not shown he can even effectively play the C position, much less at the level Kopitar did.

That doesnt prove anything really.. dont forget Byfield has been exposed to Waste mgt development practices... and was not allowed to develop as a center. It doesnt mean he wont be a great one in due time... he could also not succeed as C, but the jury is still out.

Kopitar never had elite linemates, he played for defensive oriented coaches for most of his career, in an era where scoring was less than it is now. If we are only going to talk about points can we say Fiala is as good as Kopitar, he has put up just as many points.

OK so its too early to tell. Kopi is declining and Kempe is a 2nd line winger... so I wouldnt say he's playing w elite guys really.. he is putting up points finally this season so there is hope for continued improvement. Again the jury is still out here.

Kopitar will go down as the 2nd best defensive forward of his era, suffering through a Brad Park like situation where he struggled to win the hardware because the GOAT defensive forward played at the same time.\

Agree Bergeron screwed up his hardware but he got recognized plenty.

Kopitar’s defensive ability coupled with his offense made him as valuable as 100 point centers who weren’t as good defensively. I’m sorry but I just don’t see Byfield reaching that kind of level. A Carter or Sharp who can be a championship caliber 2C? Sure, a franchise superstar 1C like Kopitar, Mac, Stamkos, Crosby, Toews? I really doubt it.

OK again we dont know this yet. He's taken a big step. Im not ready to put him anywhere near those guys, but its too early to write it off getting there.

 

[bland]

YEAH just a 20 year hall of fame 2 selke conn smythe caliber career

no big deal

don't undersell longevity

I am not. Its actually just what I said. He will be in due to his longevity, not his peak performances. I do often wonder if he had gone balls out earlier in his career maybe his teams would have fared better or had better seedings, but who knows.

But I do take issue with the Conn Smythe, he was never in contention due to rather pedestrian Conference and Cup Finals series both years. First two rounds, absolutely. Last two? You could argue Dwight King had a bigger impact.

But would you consider Ryan O'Reilly a superstar? Dude has had a very similar career. Selke, a Cup, a slightly lower points percentage but a better leader. That's were I see Anze, in the Toews/Bergeron/O' Reilly mix, not up there with Crosby on the top shelf.

 

[BigKing]

Byfield still has only scored from outside the free throw line like twice in his career so far so let's pump the brakes on him surpassing Kopitar.

 

[bland]

At the same age Kopitar was coming off his third consecutive season as a 1C. Byfield has not shown he can even effectively play the C position, much less at the level Kopitar did.

Kopitar never had elite linemates, he played for defensive oriented coaches for most of his career, in an era where scoring was less than it is now. If we are only going to talk about points can we say Fiala is as good as Kopitar, he has put up just as many points.

Kopitar will go down as the 2nd best defensive forward of his era, suffering through a Brad Park like situation where he struggled to win the hardware because the GOAT defensive forward played at the same time.

Kopitar’s defensive ability coupled with his offense made him as valuable as 100 point centers who weren’t as good defensively. I’m sorry but I just don’t see Byfield reaching that kind of level. A Carter or Sharp who can be a championship caliber 2C? Sure, a franchise superstar 1C like Kopitar, Mac, Stamkos, Crosby, Toews? I really doubt it.

100 point centers carry a far bigger portion of the load than you are giving them credit. Feels weird arguing in favor of offense over defense with you but I feel the biggest detriment of Anze's career is that when his teams lacked the depth of the Cup winners and desperately needed more offense, he was the one with the most to give yet stuck to his two-play instead of pulling his team up.

You need your #1 center to not just be productive, but to constantly be a threat to force the opposition to change their game to scheme against you. Aside from that brief three year run, the Kings have been a soft touch, an easy out in Kopitar's time. Of course that isn't all on him, but when your top line and top player are a muted threat, its just that much harder to win.

Its why I have always contended that while Anze is miles and miles better ahead as a player, Getzlaf was always a better #1 center.

 

[bland]

High end? Absolutely.

Just zero reason for a bullshit potshot at kopitar calling it a low bar.

One doesn't have to make a stupid f***ing take to make another point.

Its not outlandish to project Byfield to be a superior peak offensive player to Kopitar.

Let's call our shots on this if its so goddam shocking. Do we or do we not think that Byfield will hit a higher season total than 92 points or have more than two seasons over 80 points? Because that's the point here. Peak performance, not duration.