Kyrou and Thomas

[tfriede2]

Apparently he doesn't "want" to knock a guy on his ass or get mad every once in awhile or else he would.

I keep imagining if Parayko had been in Tucker’s position on the Watson/Barbashev boarding, and I just envision Parayko skating over, putting his arm on Watson’s shoulder, then looking at the ref. Thank God Tucker was on the ice on that play.

 

[ezcreepin]

The problem with this team is they aren't awful year in and year out for multiple seasons in a row, so the likelihood we get a top line center or defenseman has been off the table for a decade+. This team's identity, whether they believe in it or not, is success from the group sum rather than a few individuals. We don't necessarily need a guy like Crosby, McDavid, Bedard, MacKinnon, Backstrom, Stamkos, etc to win a championship. Obviously those players are going to be HoF'ers and there's no reason to expect them not to win a cup, but the team needs a 1B center to help take pressure off of Thomas.

O'Reilly, though he isn't going to lead the league in scoring, is a 50-60pt guy that plays great defense. Those are the players this team needs, not the hyper offensive talents (they will undoubtedly help). I can understand now why Armstrong seeks out two-way players in the draft; the likelihood he gets someone like Pastrnak, Marchand, Point, Gaudreau, etc at the end of the 1st and beyond is pretty low and it's better to have a lot of 30-40 point potential two way guys than a high octane scorer like Bokk who's likelihood to make the NHL was much lower.

Even though I agree the Blues have done well for themselves in the draft for a number of years now, there needs to be more focus on certain character guys that do possess decent skill. Tucker comes to mind as a guy who will literally do anything you ask him, defends pretty well for being a "bad" skater, and has a lot of grit. Players like Dunn, Perunovich, Krug, probably Kessel, all possess great offensive instincts and are clearly intelligent players who can think at a higher pace than some of these other guys. In saying that though, they have trouble defending when it just feels obvious that they should know how to defend. It's a different skill and there definitely needs to be a stronger emphasis in that area of scouting rather than just grabbing the best puck mover you can find.

 

[HighNote]

I think Kyrou is what he is, which isn't a bad thing at all because he's a big offensive threat, but I don't think he'll ever be "the guy" for us. On a contender you want him to be your 2nd or even 3rd best forward, 3rd or 4th best skater. I think he'll be a PPG player most years, maybe at his peak he hits 90-95 points.

Thomas on the other hand, I think he has one more gear on the defensive side of things.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

I think Kyrou is what he is, which isn't a bad thing at all because he's a big offensive threat, but I don't think he'll ever be "the guy" for us. On a contender you want him to be your 2nd or even 3rd best forward, 3rd or 4th best skater. I think he'll be a PPG player most years, maybe at his peak he hits 90-95 points.

Thomas on the other hand, I think he has one more gear on the defensive side of things.

I think Thomas has 1 more gear on both sides.

 

[PJJJP]

I think Kyrou is what he is, which isn't a bad thing at all because he's a big offensive threat, but I don't think he'll ever be "the guy" for us. On a contender you want him to be your 2nd or even 3rd best forward, 3rd or 4th best skater. I think he'll be a PPG player most years, maybe at his peak he hits 90-95 points.

Thomas on the other hand, I think he has one more gear on the defensive side of things.

I think Thomas has another gear simply because the dude doesn't shoot the puck. Imagine if he shot the puck more often. It would make him so much more dangerous. I think Kyrou is what he is but for me he isn't consistent enough at the moment. There are times we he puck hounds and comes back hard on the back check but he doesn't always do it. For Kyrou I just want him to be more consistent with his effort.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

I think Thomas has another gear simply because the dude doesn't shoot the puck. Imagine if he shot the puck more often. It would make him so much more dangerous.

100% dude has the skills to be a 25-30 goal 55-60+ center. And he has shown he is better defensively as well. Dude just needs to put it all together. Luckily he is only 23 he can 100% do it.

 

[Celtic Note]

The safety net was yanked out from under them when they signed their fat extensions. Now it's time to prove they are worth the investment. It certainly won't happen overnight though. Do they have the killer instinct a player needs to reach the truly elite level? I'm not sure about that, but it's far too soon to expect them to be there. We should gain a lot more insight the rest of this season when all the focus is on them.

They are not being paid at a truly elite level though. They are paid at a really good level. Expecting them to be elite will likely result in disappointment.

 

[Louie the Blue]

They are not being paid at a truly elite level though. They are paid at a really good level. Expecting them to be elite will likely result in disappointment.

I'm almost inclined to think Thomas can be elite. I don't think Kyrou can, but I think he's good at what he does.

 

[542365]

They both seem like William Nylander level players. Great players but can’t really be “the guy” on a Cup contending team. They need the superstar in front of them to take the tough matchups and they feast on the others. Love both guys, but I don’t think they’re going to be the centerpiece of a deep playoff run. This season is a great opportunity to draft that centerpiece type player with the hope that maybe Snuggerud can become that type as well.

 

[Mike Liut]

They both seem like William Nylander level players. Great players but can’t really be “the guy” on a Cup contending team. They need the superstar in front of them to take the tough matchups and they feast on the others. Love both guys, but I don’t think they’re going to be the centerpiece of a deep playoff run. This season is a great opportunity to draft that centerpiece type player with the hope that maybe Snuggerud can become that type as well.

Same here. Im not sure either can be heavily relied on in big games.

 

[Reality Czech]

They are not being paid at a truly elite level though. They are paid at a really good level. Expecting them to be elite will likely result in disappointment.

I expect them to be at the $8 million level.

 

[Frenzy31]

Let’s look at what we currently have on the ice.

JK, RT, Schenn

Barbs,
Blais, Alexandrov Topochenko
yep 7 NHL forwards. No Neighbors, No Leivo, No Buchy.

Of those 6, 3 are really top 6 forwards, 1 is a 3rd and 3 are 4th.

The rest is really AHL fodder. Right now teams only have to key on one line. Everyone else has to play out of their role. Yes grab the bull by the horns, but we are the only team that has pulled 3 forwards off their roster. 2 of which are top 6. Plus injuries.

We are pretty damn depleted right now. Let’s hold off rushing to judgement a bit before determining the futureof our players.

 

[Brian39]

Let’s look at what we currently have on the ice.

JK, RT, Schenn

Barbs,
Blais, Alexandrov Topochenko
yep 7 NHL forwards. No Neighbors, No Leivo, No Buchy.

Of those 6, 3 are really top 6 forwards, 1 is a 3rd and 3 are 4th.

The rest is really AHL fodder. Right now teams only have to key on one line. Everyone else has to play out of their role. Yes grab the bull by the horns, but we are the only team that has pulled 3 forwards off their roster. 2 of which are top 6. Plus injuries.

We are pretty damn depleted right now. Let’s hold off rushing to judgement a bit before determining the futureof our players.

Barby is more than just a 3rd liner, but I completely agree with your overall point.

His 25 even strength points is in a 14 way tie for 121st among forwards in the NHL. With 32 NHL teams, that puts him somewhere around the #4 forward on an 'average' NHL team. His 28 total points put him at in a tie for 155th overall, which would put him around the #5 forward on an 'average' NHL team. His 13:13 a night at even strength is 152nd among NHL forwards (with 15+ games played), so he is being deployed like a #5 forward too. He's also plenty physical. He's not a world-beating 2nd line player, but he's more than just a 3rd liner. I think 'middle 6' describes him best.

With all that said, your description of the 4th line trio is arguably too generous. Torpo and Alexandrov have both played like 4th liners for stretches this year, but they have a combined 90 games of NHL experience and are prone to 'young' mistakes.

Including injuries, we've subtracted 5 of the top 9 forwards in our lineup by TOI per game in less than 2 weeks. Blais is the only external addition and as much as I like him, I think we'd all agree that he's a step below Acciari. 6 of the 13 forwards on our current NHL roster are on league minimum deals and another one is on an ELC making $813k. Logan Brown is the only guy in that group with 1st round pedigree and he's a 24 year old who cleared waivers last year.

The team on the ice right now isn't remotely an NHL forward group.

 

[BlueSeal]

Of them all, Thomas and Schenn are the real deals. The difference between the two is that, if you want maximum output from Thomas, he NEEDS players of a similar level slotted in with him. Put Schenn wherever you want and he'll make stuff happen.

 

[Frenzy31]

Of them all, Thomas and Schenn are the real deals. The difference between the two is that, if you want maximum output from Thomas, he NEEDS players of a similar level slotted in with him. Put Schenn wherever you want and he'll make stuff happen.

So the player leading the team in points this year, has been a PPG for two years isn't a real deal?

I think it is good to have opinions, but one of the big ways to win is SCORING GOALS. He had 3 points- which is 3x the production of the team leader ROR, and was a minus 13 in the first 8 games of the year. Since then he has been producing again at a very strong rate.

Not every player players a 200 foot game. Not every player is physical. You need a balance of all kinds of players.

 

[BlueSeal]

So the player leading the team in points this year, has been a PPG for two years isn't a real deal?

I think it is good to have opinions, but one of the big ways to win is SCORING GOALS. He had 3 points- which is 3x the production of the team leader ROR, and was a minus 13 in the first 8 games of the year. Since then he has been producing again at a very strong rate.

Not every player players a 200 foot game. Not every player is physical. You need a balance of all kinds of players.

So Kyrou scored all those goals unassisted?

If Kyrou can continue his pace on a depleted team, you’ll make your point. I feel his production will decrease because of that and that’s my opinion. Kyrou has had quality around him since jump. Now he doesn’t. If he’s as good as you and others say and I’m also hoping he is, then it’ll continue. Pure scorers find a way, I don’t think he’s one of those but it’d be nice to have one.

He has had 25 G in 53 games and is -24. Points wise yes, 54P in 53 games but I feel that’s deceptive. Team is very different now.

I rank Thomas above him for the simple fact that Thomas creates opportunities.

 

[TruBlu]

There's nothing wrong with Kyrou or Thomas. Those two are pretty much the main reason why we aren't in a rebuild situation right now.

 

[Shwabeal]

There's nothing wrong with Kyrou or Thomas. Those two are pretty much the main reason why we aren't in a rebuild situation right now.

And you'll have plenty of people here (not me) argue that that is because of their contracts, not the players.

 

[Bluesnatic27]

The amount of bending people have to do to discredit Kyrou is alarming.

But, kudos for flexibility, I guess.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Between January and February without Tarasenko in the Lineup Kyrou has 17 points in 15 games. Kyrou also has 7 points in the past 5 games since Tarasenko was Traded.

A big issue right now is Saad and Buch are hurt. We definitely need Kyrou and Thomas to be better, but, when you have players like Leivo and Blais on the 2nd line like they do tonight it's pretty easy to focus all your defensive game plan on one line.

 

[BlueSeal]

The amount of bending people have to do to discredit Kyrou is alarming.

But, kudos for flexibility, I guess.

If you're talking about me, I'm not discrediting him at all. I'd like to see how he ends the season to totally be sold on some of the narrative folks are attaching to him. Make no mistake, we're much better with him than without him.

 

[Bluesnatic27]

If you're talking about me, I'm not discrediting him at all. I'd like to see how he ends the season to totally be sold on some of the narrative folks are attaching to him. Make no mistake, we're much better with him than without him.

Well you are part of the group as you said,

"Kyrou has had quality around him since jump. Now he doesn’t. If he’s as good as you and others say and I’m also hoping he is, then it’ll continue."

And then continued with,

"He has had 25 G in 53 games and is -24. Points wise yes, 54P in 53 games but I feel that’s deceptive. Team is very different now."

You just discredited his scoring because he jumped into the NHL on a good team and made a claim that he produces point because of the talent around him. The latter is an argument that can be made for every single player on the Blues (especially for Thomas who needs players to put his passes in the back of the net because there's no way he's scoring goals himself)) as well as the entire league. Not to mention that one of the players you claimed was legit (Schenn) has less points, an even lower +/-, and has been just as bad defensively (if not worse).

This is a prime example of bending to discredit him. He plays with players that people think are legit, outproduces them, and yet he's the one in the top-6 that is questioned? Not Schenn who has been just as bad defensively? Not Thomas with his need for scoring wingers to make his offense happen? What does Kyrou have to do?

The bottom line is that Kyrou is heavily needed for this team to succeed. He's paid like a top-line offensive player and is doing exactly what a top-line offensive player is supposed to do. Either we as a fanbase have become spoiled (I remember when everyone jumped for joy that Tarasenko signed his similar, if not more heavily investing, contract) or we want Kyrou to be something that he isn't.

 

[BlueSeal]

Well you are part of the group as you said,

"Kyrou has had quality around him since jump. Now he doesn’t. If he’s as good as you and others say and I’m also hoping he is, then it’ll continue."

And then continued with,

"He has had 25 G in 53 games and is -24. Points wise yes, 54P in 53 games but I feel that’s deceptive. Team is very different now."

You just discredited his scoring because he jumped into the NHL on a good team and made a claim that he produces point because of the talent around him. The latter is an argument that can be made for every single player on the Blues (especially for Thomas who needs players to put his passes in the back of the net because there's no way he's scoring goals himself)) as well as the entire league. Not to mention that one of the players you claimed was legit (Schenn) has less points, an even lower +/-, and is one of Kyrou's most consistent line-mates this year.

This is a prime example of bending to discredit him. He plays with players that people think are legit, outproduces them, and yet he's the one in the top-6 that is questioned? Not Schenn who has been just as bad defensively? Not Thomas with his need for scoring wingers to make his offense happen? What does Kyrou have to do?

The bottom line is that Kyrou is heavily needed for this team to succeed. He's paid like a top-line offensive player and is doing exactly what a top-line player offensive player is supposed to do. Either we as a fanbase have become spoiled (I remember when everyone jumped for joy that Tarasenko signed his similar, if not more heavily investing, contract) or we want Kyrou to be something that he isn't.

What you're describing as discrediting is what I can pointing out faults. No one is perfect and I am well within my right to value players like Schenn and Thomas above Kyrou. I'm not saying he's terrible or he should be traded, I value the guy enough to point out I do and that I want to see him 'become' the player everyone feels he is and can be.

As for "He has had 25 G in 53 games and is -24. Points wise yes, 54P in 53 games but I feel that’s deceptive. Team is very different now." ? That isn't a detraction, outside of me feeling it's deception, which I noted in there, It's a fact. No one can argue that.

I want to see what he does now. I'm not against the kid, I want to see him succeed. But the idea that OMFG YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING NEGATIVE AGAINST SOME GUY I LIKE LOTS BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED BEFORE ON A DIFFERENT ROSTERED TEAM is nonsense (Not aimed at you at all but the seeming general opinion of Jordan Kyrou which to his credit has so far been earned.)

If I'm discrediting him, why am I going out of my way on many posts before this one to offer him flowers?

He's part of our solution but I value players like RT and BS just a bit more. It's just my thing.

I think Thomas has another gear simply because the dude doesn't shoot the puck. Imagine if he shot the puck more often. It would make him so much more dangerous. I think Kyrou is what he is but for me he isn't consistent enough at the moment. There are times we he puck hounds and comes back hard on the back check but he doesn't always do it. For Kyrou I just want him to be more consistent with his effort.

This.

 

[Frenzy31]

So Kyrou scored all those goals unassisted?

If Kyrou can continue his pace on a depleted team, you’ll make your point. I feel his production will decrease because of that and that’s my opinion. Kyrou has had quality around him since jump. Now he doesn’t. If he’s as good as you and others say and I’m also hoping he is, then it’ll continue. Pure scorers find a way, I don’t think he’s one of those but it’d be nice to have one.

He has had 25 G in 53 games and is -24. Points wise yes, 54P in 53 games but I feel that’s deceptive. Team is very different now.

I rank Thomas above him for the simple fact that Thomas creates opportunities.

So does Kyrou with his speed. He was a -13 in October....... Minus 11 since on a team that is bottom feeder. We give ROR benefit of the doubt with his - 24, especially when arguing with other fans about his value, for instance empty netters... Well, Kyrou is out there when we are down also...

This board, if a couple of fans complain about a player, then other fans grab on a repeat it. All of sudden a false narrative is creative. It truly drives me bonkers.

His production SHOULD DECREASE. Because we only have 1 line. He was already on the TOP PP. HE ISN'T GOING to get a ton of more ice time or better line mates..... Why would his production go up?

If you were playing the Blues, as an opposing coach this season - are you worrying about ROR, Leivo, and Saad or are you focusing on Thomas, Kyrou, and Buchy. He and RT have already been facing better competition all year as ROR's line has been pretty mild at best.

When Armstrong was talking about watching the reaction and who plays hard, I am thinking he is also looking at the tweeners. More then the established guys. Established guys understand what it takes to win and to play year in year out.

But guys trying to get into the NHL and are highly productive AHLers are the guys he is really watching. Can these guys play next year. Who do we have that can fill a 4th line role or higher. That is the focus of Armstrong, IMO.

Alexandrov, Neighbors, Highmore, Tucker....... Walker and Topochenko are all guys that he is really watching.

 

[Bluesnatic27]

What you're describing as discrediting is what I can pointing out faults. No one is perfect and I am well within my right to value players like Schenn and Thomas above Kyrou. I'm not saying he's terrible or he should be traded, I value the guy enough to point out I do and that I want to see him 'become' the player everyone feels he is and can be.

I genuinely don't know what you're trying to say here. I never mentioned, nor cared, how you ranked these players. Be my guest in having Thomas ahead of Kyrou. The issue is that you described Kyrou's offense as deceptive by making a claim that Kyrou's offense is a result of being with talent.

1) Duh, every player besides the very top of the hill need talented players around them to score.

2) That's not a fault. That is discrediting Kyrou. You never pointed out what Kyrou is doing or even backed up why his offense is deceptive other than that blanket statement of saying that he's surrounded by talent. Weird how Kyrou seems to be the only one benefitting from talent despite Kyrou's almost equal goal-to-assist ratio, implying he's doing equal work establishing and finishing plays.

For someone claiming to point out what is limiting Kyrou from becoming the player we all know he can be, you sure don't like pointing out what he's doing or needs to do.

As for "He has had 25 G in 53 games and is -24. Points wise yes, 54P in 53 games but I feel that’s deceptive. Team is very different now." ? That isn't a detraction, outside of me feeling it's deception, which I noted in there, It's a fact. No one can argue that.

You're right, that is a fact. That also wasn't what I had a problem with. What I had a problem with is you saying that it's deceptive for the reason I point out above. I'm not arguing against facts, I'm arguing against your interpretation of facts.

I want to see what he does now. I'm not against the kid, I want to see him succeed. But the idea that OMFG YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING NEGATIVE AGAINST SOME GUY I LIKE LOTS BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED BEFORE ON A DIFFERENT ROSTERED TEAM is nonsense (Not aimed at you at all but the seeming general opinion of Jordan Kyrou which to his credit has so far been earned.)

Wait so Kyrou earned the credit you didn't want to give him on the previous roster. But now that the roster is different, he needs to earn it again? As mentioned before, you haven't actually described what Kyrou needs to do (besides score... something that applies to all players) and what he's doing that's limiting him. If you're not going to give a reason or evidence to support your concern, then how else is anyone supposed to read this and not think you're discrediting him.

Feel free to point out areas of improvement. That might actually make for a good read. But there's nothing you've said that would actually point me in that direction. Unless I'm supposed to interpret the implication that Kyrou's offensive success is the result of other people as an area of improvement. You know, the same way one would say that Parayko can be better defensively because the goalie stops most of the shots from going in the net.