Kyrou and Thomas
- Thread starter TurgPavs
- Start date
Changing the dynamic is either going to elevate or cripple their game. We can’t really answer the question until we see the further pieces Army brings in. If his plan is to draft and run the team essentially as-is with a few stopgap signings until our prospects are ready, it might blow up in his face.
Saying all of that, no, RT needs quality people around him. He does his job, he needs others to do their job as well. It's kind of like the quality of D in front of your netminder. If they suck, they'll drag your goalie down, same with needing and having quality wingers.
IMO, What RT needs is a bonafide sniper. He will get you there, but he needs someone who can bag the goal.
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PocketNines
Cutter's Way
Last week it was stated here that only "butt-hurt" people could argue Thomas isn't as good a #1C as Brayden Point.
Only as good as your linemates and the strategy of coaching. Saying that, comparing him to Point is abit nuts.
Linkens Mastery
Conductor of the TankTown Express
It's like there might be some growing pains when you move a young player from 2nd/3rd line minutes to 1st line minutes. Especially when you yank the safety net from under them.
TheDizee
Trade Jordan Kyrou ASAP | ALWAYS RIGHT
- Apr 5, 2014
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expecting kyrou to lead anything is a recipe for disaster. he couldnt even lead a fortnite party.
This is a MAJOR concern for this team, very little leadership left outside of Schenn and Bortuzzo.
This is a MAJOR concern for this team, very little leadership left outside of Schenn and Bortuzzo.
67Blues
Got it for Bobby
That is why it wouldn't shock me if they resigned ROR for a team friendly 3 year deal.
rumrokh
THORBS
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If the question is whether or not the Blues will look just as good without several highly skilled veteran players, I think everyone knows the answer to that. Kyrou and Thomas are not suddenly going to be McDavid and Draisaitl, who, themselves, can only carry an otherwise mediocre team to a wildcard spot this year.
Thomas and Kyrou, while very good, are not perfect. And, surprise, everyone looks better when they're insulated and can focus on a role that suits their abilities. Brayden Schenn is a hard-nosed player who isn't afraid to go into the corners, but the coach sat his ass at the end of last game, too. Dude was invisible. In a game, which, by the way, is basically inked in as a loss - second of a back-to-back with travel, third in four nights against three very quick teams. When Florida looked so terrible the other night against the Blues, they were in the same situation. They turned right back around and smoked the Capitals 6-3.
I think it's a huge mistake to put the failures of so many aspects of the team at the feet of the two youngest remaining core players. Pang, especially, couldn't shut up about how the young players should be grabbing this chance by the horns and playing their hearts out. Really? What about the veterans who couldn't get the job done while they were here? Those are guys who should be far more familiar with what happens when you don't perform.
Are we to accept the gospel that the Old Pros always work their hardest, but simply can't control everything, while the Young Punks could take over the world if only they'd apply themselves? Or did we just happen to see a bad, tired, injured team with understandably low morale get victimized by scheduling and dirty plays, and it hit the perfect zenith of a frustrating circumstance and equally bad and tired cliches that pretend to gloss over and explain a way more complex situation?
Bottom line is that until the defense looks halfway competent, I have a hard time picking apart the only remaining good forwards too much. Do they need to improve? Yes. Is it possible Berube and company are not the right crew for that job? Yes. But anyone who doesn't apply the same scrutiny across the entire lineup of veterans, especially the ones who were traded, is indulging the fool in themselves. And if you come away finding them all lacking, as I think you should, then the answer includes, but does not revolve primarily around two young scoring forwards.
Thomas and Kyrou, while very good, are not perfect. And, surprise, everyone looks better when they're insulated and can focus on a role that suits their abilities. Brayden Schenn is a hard-nosed player who isn't afraid to go into the corners, but the coach sat his ass at the end of last game, too. Dude was invisible. In a game, which, by the way, is basically inked in as a loss - second of a back-to-back with travel, third in four nights against three very quick teams. When Florida looked so terrible the other night against the Blues, they were in the same situation. They turned right back around and smoked the Capitals 6-3.
I think it's a huge mistake to put the failures of so many aspects of the team at the feet of the two youngest remaining core players. Pang, especially, couldn't shut up about how the young players should be grabbing this chance by the horns and playing their hearts out. Really? What about the veterans who couldn't get the job done while they were here? Those are guys who should be far more familiar with what happens when you don't perform.
Are we to accept the gospel that the Old Pros always work their hardest, but simply can't control everything, while the Young Punks could take over the world if only they'd apply themselves? Or did we just happen to see a bad, tired, injured team with understandably low morale get victimized by scheduling and dirty plays, and it hit the perfect zenith of a frustrating circumstance and equally bad and tired cliches that pretend to gloss over and explain a way more complex situation?
Bottom line is that until the defense looks halfway competent, I have a hard time picking apart the only remaining good forwards too much. Do they need to improve? Yes. Is it possible Berube and company are not the right crew for that job? Yes. But anyone who doesn't apply the same scrutiny across the entire lineup of veterans, especially the ones who were traded, is indulging the fool in themselves. And if you come away finding them all lacking, as I think you should, then the answer includes, but does not revolve primarily around two young scoring forwards.
Reality Czech
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The safety net was yanked out from under them when they signed their fat extensions. Now it's time to prove they are worth the investment. It certainly won't happen overnight though. Do they have the killer instinct a player needs to reach the truly elite level? I'm not sure about that, but it's far too soon to expect them to be there. We should gain a lot more insight the rest of this season when all the focus is on them.
Let’s be careful who gets called a fool here. This may turn out to be worse than we think. Let’s be cautiously optimistic but understand and accept that this can go in all sorts of bad directions.
The persons one may laugh at may very well be proven right in time.
Army’s moves since the Cup, out of -some- necessity, has brought us to this. Let’s remember that.
We’ve won a Cup because of not just his moves but the culture that group created that is now gone. We’re starting over and I don’t think folks truly fathom what that means, especially since it’s us.
I have faith in Army. I wonder how much the locker room has faith in him.
They need to step up absolutely, but let’s be clear on expectations. They aren’t being paid as if they are truly elite. They’re being paid as if they are very good but well short of elite. If we have 3-5 more guys at that level (buchy, snuggly, Bolduc, and our 1st?) that could be makings of really good group. But let’s not expect them to be McDavid and Draisaitl or MacKinnon and raatanen. They aren’t.
Linkens Mastery
Conductor of the TankTown Express
Their fat extensions still count less against the cap than Tarasenko and RoRs counted to the cap when they signed. The Blues currently have their offensive guys locked up long term. Now they need to build around them.
Since trading Tarasenko, Thomas has 5 points and Kyrou has 7 in 5 games. Kyrou is a +1 and Thomas is an even player in that time. Both players were pretty f***ing awful yesterday and the night before but so was the entirety of the team. The big issue right now is there is no other line on the team. Saad, Buch, and Neighbours are all broken. Barbie has one foot out the door. Teams can lock on the Blues top line of ????-Thomas-Kyrou and almost ignore everyone else.
I do feel like RoR could be back in the off season. Which will give the Blues a little more breathing room.
Reality Czech
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I don't expect them to win games all by themselves, but I do expect to see them step their game up and lead by example. They need to be leaders now, not followers.
Linkens Mastery
Conductor of the TankTown Express
Which is fine and I agree, but I'd also expect Parayko, Faulk, and Schenn to step up as well to lead. And last night like looked as disinterested as you could be. The team looked completely gutted emotionally the last two games. The RoR trade f***ed the teams moral up bad. And then they had to play back to back afternoon games with travel. I want to see how they come out on Tuesday.
rumrokh
THORBS
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We all have fools in ourselves and we all indulge those fools from time to time.
Of course this can go in all sorts of bad directions. What's happening now is currently bad. And while the locker room can have more or less faith in him, it's probably not the same kind of faith fans have. Because the ownership and/or Armstrong have given up on this season. Fan-shaped faith is that he'll retool/rebuild into a good team again, in time. Maybe player-shaped faith includes agreement that this year is a loss. Maybe the best development and most entertaining hockey will actually come from players' being skeptical that the GM is right about the direction of the team, so they're going to try to succeed no matter what. Or maybe faith just has nothing to do with it.
Reality Czech
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I've never questioned Schenn's leadership and Faulk seems to be solid in the room as well. Not sure about Parayko as he seems like kind of a passive guy on and off the ice. I'm not really talking about these past two games, but Thomas and Kyrou will need to grow into their bigger roles regardless of what other players do or don't do. Will they be content to be top scorers on a middling team or will they show the fire and bring more to the table than offense? Time will tell.
Don’t sell Parayko short for sassing the refs. “I can do whatever I want!”
LetsGoBooze
Let the re-tool breathe
- Jan 16, 2012
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I think Schenn will be around for either all of his deal or atleast the next 4 years. He will take some of the burden off the younger core. I like what he's done for the young guys aleady, and would be happy for him to stick around, even as he ages.
Reality Czech
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Apparently he doesn't "want" to knock a guy on his ass or get mad every once in awhile or else he would.
We -need- someone to piss him off on the ice. We know what he can become, they need to draw it out of him.
Underrated gem of a signing. Doesn’t get enough credit.
Reality Czech
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Yep, I've become a big fan of Schenn. While he may be known for his hard-nosed style, he was a top 5 pick for a reason. There aren't many guys who can put up 60+ points and do all the other things he does on the ice, including beat guys up if the situation calls for it. He's that workmanlike veteran that any team would benefit from having around.
As for Parayko, it's probably not fair to expect him to be someone he's not but everyone should get pissed off on the ice sometimes. He benefitted from having vets play in front of him for years, but doesn't really stand out much on his own. That being said, as a 3rd round pick he has overachived expectations regardless of whether or not he can be a true #1, so I can't be too hard on him.
PocketNines
Cutter's Way
At the risk of steering the thread away from Schenn and Parayko and back to Kyrou and Thomas, there are three primary possibilities with these guys:
I do not need a litany of explanation why certain offensive production equals certain dollars in the NHL, or percentage of a team's cap. I get why they got what they got in today's NHL. Lots of people get paid and then don't live up to their contract. You have to decide before you commit that contract, "is this really the guy" and if the answer is no (because you looked past the surface numbers) you make a move before you have no choice but to pay and royally destroy yourself. I get why he didn't make a move last year for Kyrou when he was at maximum trade value at 1.5 years left of 2.8M, but also it's tough, close, brutal decisions in the business and you get just as judged for what you don't do as what you do.
Personally, I do not believe in #1. I don't think they have it. Would love to be wrong. Will hang a lantern on being wrong if wrong.
#2 is to me a realistic best case possibility. Snuggerud and the first pick in this year's draft will have a lot of say.
#3 is now the big legitimate fear and it's the reason Pang went into his discussion on air yesterday.
1. They improve and become "first line center" and "first line winger," to use Pang's verbage of what he hopes they could become. When I said the same exact thing a couple days ago it was immediately pointed out to me that their numbers say they are first line players. Tell it to Pang, because he also sees what I see with these two.
2. They remain who they are but other, better, superior guys arrive quickly enough that the 130M Duo still can provide value.
3. Their remain who they are but they don't get help fast enough, and their lack of worth quicksands the franchise.
I do not need a litany of explanation why certain offensive production equals certain dollars in the NHL, or percentage of a team's cap. I get why they got what they got in today's NHL. Lots of people get paid and then don't live up to their contract. You have to decide before you commit that contract, "is this really the guy" and if the answer is no (because you looked past the surface numbers) you make a move before you have no choice but to pay and royally destroy yourself. I get why he didn't make a move last year for Kyrou when he was at maximum trade value at 1.5 years left of 2.8M, but also it's tough, close, brutal decisions in the business and you get just as judged for what you don't do as what you do.
Personally, I do not believe in #1. I don't think they have it. Would love to be wrong. Will hang a lantern on being wrong if wrong.
#2 is to me a realistic best case possibility. Snuggerud and the first pick in this year's draft will have a lot of say.
#3 is now the big legitimate fear and it's the reason Pang went into his discussion on air yesterday.
Linkens Mastery
Conductor of the TankTown Express
It would not surprise if it's a mixture between 1 & 2. I think both Thomas and Kyrou can be 90 point players in their prime. But I also think Snuggy and the first (Hopefully Bedard, Fantilli, Carlson, or Smith) will also be able to support them in the next two years.
rumrokh
THORBS
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There are other options. They could improve noticeably but still not be good enough if the supporting cast isn't good enough. They could also remain who they are and the rest of the team, while not individually superior, is good and deep enough that Thomas and Kyrou can focus on areas where they excel.
I'd also say your #3 has just as much to do with the rest of the franchise as it does Thomas and Kyrou. And I don't mean in some generic sense, but specific players under specific contracts. I'm not sure it helps to frame this around those two.
I also think it's worth considering that they don't function/improve as a pair. One could remain the same and the other could continue to improve.
The bottom line is the deals given to Kyrou and Thomas aren't going to torpedo the entire franchise even if what we've seen so far is what they are in the regular season.
Maybe that won't be good enough to make the team a real contender, but as we've seen even McDavid and Draisatl need help. And Thomas and Kyrou aren't being paid enough that there isn't room to help them if the front office does its job.
It would've hurt to move Kyrou for Tkachuk, but I would have done it. But is there another realistic scenario that involves those two other than what Armstrong did with them? I don't think many here were advocating taking RFA year by year and you can certainly quibble a little bit about the numbers given to them, but they're pretty fair given other deals across the league.
Maybe that won't be good enough to make the team a real contender, but as we've seen even McDavid and Draisatl need help. And Thomas and Kyrou aren't being paid enough that there isn't room to help them if the front office does its job.
It would've hurt to move Kyrou for Tkachuk, but I would have done it. But is there another realistic scenario that involves those two other than what Armstrong did with them? I don't think many here were advocating taking RFA year by year and you can certainly quibble a little bit about the numbers given to them, but they're pretty fair given other deals across the league.
