Kyle Dubas vs JFJ

[hullsy47]

JFJ and not even close... The team we had last year was fantastic. Marner didn't show up in the playoffs. If he plays like Kucherov we play in the finals as well.

Giving Marner his contract and the Foligno trade were bad, but for the most part Dubas moves have made the team much better. Traded for Hyman, traded for Muzzin, signed Brodie, traded for Campbell. Should be a top 5-8 team again next year.

JFJ was just awful and made awful moves.

 

[LeafsFan89]

I agree 99 percent of dubas move blow jfj out of the water


But jfj never did anything to as close as dumb as the marner contract

Rask for Raycroft, Toskaflop, Jeff f*ckin Finger. Do I need to go on?

 

[francis246]

I can neither confirm nor deny who is better.

underrated comment

 

[Apex Predator]

Rask for Raycroft, Toskaflop, Jeff f*ckin Finger. Do I need to go on?

Jeff finger was cliff fletcher. Besides those two what else did JFJ do? Those are his two big mistakes but I can’t off the top of my head remember other ones. I’m sure there are.

 

[fahad203]

Rask for Raycroft, Toskaflop, Jeff f*ckin Finger. Do I need to go on?

Jeff finger was fletcher
Toskala only cost us a draft pick. Which turned out to be Eller.
Rask for Raycroft was bad. If it makes you feel better Boston too wanted Pogge. Pogge did look like had the better upside

Unfortunately Rask turned out to be a star and Pogge. Well

JFJ did draft Rask where other teams didn't. He had the balls to draft a goalie

Overall JFJ drafting was superb

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

I agree 99 percent of dubas move blow jfj out of the water


But jfj never did anything to as close as dumb as the marner contract

Overpaying a superstar by 1.5M is worse than the Rask and Toskala trades? Really?

 

[francis246]

Dubas.

JFJ team didn't have the talent like this. He drafted extremely well

Rask trade was awful but there was no way of knowing Pogge was gonna flop. He had a good as chance as Rask to be an NHL star

Also back then u didn't have these types of FA available. He didn't have Tavares to pick from

You're right he had better UFA's available and NO salary cap. JFJ absolutely f***ed this team. The Rask trade and trading so many first rounders for aging players. The crazy thing is if they had just stuck with it, they would have had a decent team because Quinn drafted decent players. After JFJ it was just downhill,

Cliff Fletcher's short stint in 2008 was also brutal. I don't know why he was allowed to trade Steen and Coliacovo for Stempniak. Signing Jeff Finger to 4 million dollars after mixing him up with Kurt Sauer....

Brian Burke Era is a tough one too...

 

[fahad203]

Overpaying a superstar by 1.5M is worse than the Rask and Toskala trades? Really?

Why are you just stopping there
Jfj drafting was awesome. Without even proper 1st round picks


He drafted
Rask, nhl all star
Tlusty
Kulemin 30 goal scorer and decent player
Gunnerson
Komarov
Reimer starter in NHL
Frattin
Holzer
Stalberg 20 goal scorer


He built his team around certain structure but didn't have time to see benefits

Dubas was given the green light. 4 superstars
So far his drafting has been crap. Bunch of small player

JFJ team didn't have the talent. Dubas team all the talent and still F up


JFJ also hired Maurice. He had NHL experience. Keefe has been shit

As bad as JFJ team was they didn't lose to Zamboni driver

Jason Blake at least tried to play the game and put up a fight. His team wasn't soft as butter

 

[DarkKnight]

I can’t confirm or deny who I voted for, but Dubas inherited one of the most envious GM situations in recent memory.

 

[Menzinger]

Did JFJ even add a player that could be comparable to Brodie or Muzzin? Can't think I can name one.

His 2006 draft was excellent though

 

[egd27]

Rask for Raycroft was one of the worst moves in franchise history.

Marner may be overpaid, but it’s nowhere near an abomination that trade was. The worst.

It turned out that way but goalies are voodoo and it's hard to know how they will develop. For that reason I can cut JFJ a little slack.

Kid Kyle knew signing JT was going to upset the salary structure and put pressure on the cap. He knew that McDavid & Eichel signed for 8 but let AM get away with only 5 anyway. He knew the comparable players for Marner were no where near $11M but gave it to him anyway. He knew he had another year of Marleau but seemingly didn't factor that in to his other decisions, and it ended up costing a 1st (and KK & AJ a season later).

IMO making bad decisions when you know the consequences is inexcusable.

 

[rumman]

I can’t confirm or deny who I voted for, but Dubas inherited one of the most envious GM situations in recent memory.

It takes a real special talent to take what boy wonder inherited and pretty much s**t the bed thus far.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Why are you just stopping there
Jfj drafting was awesome. Without even proper 1st round picks


He drafted
Rask, nhl all star
Tlusty
Kulemin 30 goal scorer and decent player
Gunnerson
Komarov
Reimer starter in NHL
Frattin
Holzer
Stalberg 20 goal scorer


He built his team around certain structure but didn't have time to see benefits

Dubas was given the green light. 4 superstars
So far his drafting has been crap. Bunch of small player

JFJ team didn't have the talent. Dubas team all the talent and still F up


JFJ also hired Maurice. He had NHL experience. Keefe has been shit

As bad as JFJ team was they didn't lose to Zamboni driver

Jason Blake at least tried to play the game and put up a fight. His team wasn't soft as butter

Nice to say Dubas' drafting is crap after three years when few if any teams have full time NHLers out of those drafts unless they were top 10 picks... and our guys are among the closest. Even JFJ's guys took that long except for Tlusty, who busted hard, and Kulemin, who was a D+2. Stalberg was ready after 3 years as a D+2 and the rest took more than 5 years to finally make the NHL.

People are so transparent.

 

[yubbers]

I think Dubas is a good GM. We get mad at him and all but overall he delivers.

Delivers what exactly?

 

[justashadowof]

The normie response would be "no Raycroft-Rask trade" but Dubas has also dealt away significant assets. And JFJ inherited an aging team that was destined for decline without an input of significant young talent that never did come. Dubas inherited a team on the rise. We could see JFJ was in tough as an NHL GM from day one stammering at pressers resorting to barely sensical corporate-speak cliches. His contract negotiation skills were also weak (Muskoka Five) but I'm almost positive that he'd have done a better job just because most of the time he did not concern himself with being the smartest man in the room. He had the humility to defer to his subordinates' knowledge.

 

[yubbers]

JFJ traded for a bunch of over the hump vets and twice made horrible trades for goaltenders.

Rask for Raycroft is the obvious one but he also traded a 1st, 2nd, and a 4th for Toskala and Bell.

And Dubas waived a sure thing backup to roll with Garrett f***ing Sparks. Then once we had to kick the known hothead out of the dressing room a few weeks before playoffs..... It took him 3/4 of a season to fix his own mistake. We of course bled points and didn't make the playoffs. That alone should of had him fired.a very predictable disaster.

 

[fahad203]

Nice to say Dubas' drafting is crap after three years when few if any teams have full time NHLers out of those drafts unless they were top 10 picks... and our guys are among the closest. Even JFJ's guys took that long except for Tlusty, who busted hard, and Kulemin, who was a D+2. Stalberg was ready after 3 years as a D+2 and the rest took more than 5 years to finally make the NHL.

People are so transparent.

Yes but we know what we got in JFJ drafting. We are going by time so far. We will see Dubas drafting will be

Coach: JFJ hired Paul Maurice. If my memory serves me right he went to Stanly Cuo finals. He didn't hire his buddy

JFJ didn't inherit a 60 goal scorer. And not make the playoffs playing at home

JFJ didn't have Marner and Nylander along with Reilly, Andersen

JFJ had to build everything from scratch

Sure he had no salary cap but Dubas put himself in that spot by overpaying

JFJ also brought and recommended to bring Marlies to TO. Which has been a big organizational move with development benefits

Dubas didn't have Paddy up his ass. He would have cried.

Dubas had a team every GM dreams off. Yet he still found a way to hire a dumb ass of a coach that lost to a zamboni driver

 

[fahad203]

The normie response would be "no Raycroft-Rask trade" but Dubas has also dealt away significant assets. And JFJ inherited an aging team that was destined for decline without an input of significant young talent that never did come. Dubas inherited a team on the rise. We could see JFJ was in tough as an NHL GM from day one stammering at pressers resorting to barely sensical corporate-speak cliches. His contract negotiation skills were also weak (Muskoka Five) but I'm almost positive that he'd have done a better job just because most of the time he did not concern himself with being the smartest man in the room. He had the humility to defer to his subordinates' knowledge.

I dont think ppl realize how those Muskoka 5 handicapped this team for years.

I loved all those players but their time had come

There was a trade in place for Kubina to San Jose for 1sr ,2nd and 3rd and a prospect. Ron Wilson even confirmed this

Kaberle had a deal with Philly for Jeff Carter

The fact that JFJ even got to trade half fo them was a success in itself

 

[The CyNick]

The team isn't advancing in the playoffs under Dubas but at least they are making it there (more often).

They make the playoffs because of the group put together by Lou.

 

[Clark4Ever]

JFJ was worse without question. Dubas has at least made some bold creative moves to offset some of his negative decisions.

 

[socko]

it's amazing how golden the core players are when you aren't talking about their unprecedented dramatic overpayments. when that topic comes up, suddenly they are a lot less special just so you can squeeze every ounce of hyperbole and portray those contracts as the worst deals ever signed

RFAs don't get paid like UFAs. Unproven players don't get paid like proven players. Guys who haven't done it in the playoffs don't make as much as guys who have. Guys who some believe have 60 goal potential don't get paid as much as guys who have actually scored 60 goals. We had some potential and Dubas paid them like they're prime Gretzky with their name on the Cup 4 times and they just hit UFA status and are free to sign with any team they want. Guy is an idiot.

 

[Leaf Fans]

What is better a BMW or a Pinto?

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Why are you just stopping there
Jfj drafting was awesome. Without even proper 1st round picks


He drafted
Rask, nhl all star
Tlusty
Kulemin 30 goal scorer and decent player
Gunnerson
Komarov
Reimer starter in NHL
Frattin
Holzer
Stalberg 20 goal scorer


He built his team around certain structure but didn't have time to see benefits

Dubas was given the green light. 4 superstars
So far his drafting has been crap. Bunch of small player

JFJ team didn't have the talent. Dubas team all the talent and still F up


JFJ also hired Maurice. He had NHL experience. Keefe has been shit

As bad as JFJ team was they didn't lose to Zamboni driver

Jason Blake at least tried to play the game and put up a fight. His team wasn't soft as butter

I dont know why you brought up the draft. You said the Marner contract was worse than anything JFJ did. Over paying a 90+ pt player by 1.5M was not worse than trading away a cost controlled high 1st round drafted goalie that ended up being a top 5 goalie. Same with trading away 1st round pick for a backup goalie.

If you want to talk about the draft. JFJ was the GM from 03-08. 6 of those players you named were all from the same draft. Impressive draft but the only other NHLer he drafted in those 4+ years was Stralman. I wouldn't call that great drafting. Look at who else he had drafted. Saying Dubas' drafting has been crap because a the average size is about 5'11 is a bad argument. Plus you can't call his drafting crap when it hasn't been long enough to make that judgement. A majority of his picks are still teenagers. If you want to look at who he has drafted so far:
Amirov - 6'1 speedy, 2 way winger with really good offensive tools and an excellent wrist shot. Good production in limited ice time on the 4th line in the 2nd best league in the world. Just under Ppg at the world Juniors and played on the top line for Russia.

Sandin- had already appeared in a bunch of NHL games as a teen. Has put up 12 pts in 37 nhl games so far. Shown the ability to qb a powerplay. Dominating in the AHL. Best D man in the WJC with 10 pts in 7 games. Not bad for a late 1st.

Robertson- one of the best single season performances in OHL history. Really good showing at the WJC with near ppg. Has 16 pts in 21 games on a bad Marlies team as a teenager and has appeared in 7 NHL games. Not bad for a late 2nd. In the conversation of going top 15 in a redraft.

Niemela - played top pairing on a pro men's team in Finland as a teenager. Went over ppg at the WJC where he was named BEST D man. Smooth skater, incredibly poised, high IQ and actually plays pretty physical and doesn't get knocked down easy despite his small frame. Not bad for a 3rd rounder.

Abruzzese- one of the leading scorers in the NCAA as a freshman. Smooth skater, great passer and has been praised by coaches and scouts for having some of the best hockey IQ they've seen. Not bad for a 4th rounder.

Abramov- had 76 pts in 63 games carrying a terrible victoriaville team where the 2nd best player had 41 pts. Followed that up with another good year where he took his team deep in the Q playoffs. Has some good tools and plays scrappy at times. Looking like a possible middle 6er. 4th rounder.

Hirvonen- feisty little player with good tools. Played top line in a pro men's league as a teen for much of the season. Played top line for Finland at the WJC, playing with top talent Lundell going almost ppg. Late 2nd.

Miettinen - one of the highest scorers in the NCAA as a freshman. NHL shot already. Would've played at the WJC if not for Covid quarantine rules. 6th rounder.

Holmberg, Kral, SDAand Koster have all shown glimpses and steady progression. Outside chance of being NHLers. Players like Ovchinnikov, Villeneuve as well as others also are interesting prospects to watch.

None of these players look like crap drafting.

 

[Mess]

The team isn't advancing in the playoffs under Dubas but at least they are making it there (more often).

Except for when you add context in that Dubas inherited a 2 X playoff team already coming off a franchise all time 100 year best season that finished 6th overall.

So what you likely mean is at least Dubas is keeping the Leafs in a playoff spot since taking over and we haven't fallen out of them yet.

I must say, with all due respect that is a pretty low bar you're using to measure the difference.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

I don’t like Dubas at all but JFJ by far. Caveat being his hands were tied by management.