LeBrun: " Kyle Dubas is listening to everyone on his roster outside of his "core guys" "
- Thread starter Gurglesons
- Start date
Empoleon8771
Registered User
"A lot of assets".
It's a 1st and 2nd plus some cap dumps. How is that "a lot of assets"?
And so did every Penguins fans. Everyone knew that this was going to be how the team aged, and fans were fine with it to ensure that the core stayed Penguins for their entire career.
The only surprise is that it happened a bit earlier than most fans were expecting.
Yeah, Pettersson would be traded for a 1st++ at minimum. He would be a phenomenal add for any team. Just a solid-as-it-gets top-four defenseman, and he's signed next year at a favourable cap hit.
SomeDude
Registered User
A new ownership group just paid a billion dollar valuation for them. They’re not going to rebuild until Crosby and Malkin retire. Even now, they’re going to try to retool for next year.
It doesn’t matter what they should do when reality is they aren’t going to do it. You might as well argue about unicorns and expected goals per 60. Born are just as real.
I agree. I don't think the ownership group wants to do what needs to be done. Which means there's going to be an awful mess when this organization runs out of gas and hits the ground.
People that don't watch the Penguins only know 4 players on the team so they assume if the Penguins are bad it's because those 4 players are bad.
Those of us lucky enough to watch this team regularly know it's the powerplay and forwards 5 through 12 that make this team bad. But that doesn't fit the HF narrative that any player over 30 is bad and Mike Sullivan is a great coach.
SomeDude
Registered User
Lucky sure is a way to describe getting to watch the 23/24 Pittsburgh Penguins.
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
Based on the fact that two teams have given up 1st round picks for Karlsson now and then imploded the following seasons? Seems pretty obvious.
Ugene Magic
EVIL LAUGH
My stance on Jake being traded is that it wouldn't be what was said about making Sid comfortable. Sid could be signing an extension and it would have to be Jake wanting out.
ElPrimeTime
Registered User
Give me back JP! Three way styles:
To Edmonton: JP
To Pens: Mid-Pick
To Third contender team: Janmark
To Edmonton: JP
To Pens: Mid-Pick
To Third contender team: Janmark
Slats432
Registered User
That 0 points in 6 games after a year worth of rehab doesn't speak well. Add a good player, not a retread. I wish JP well, but not in Edmonton.Give me back JP! Three way styles:
To Edmonton: JP
To Pens: Mid-Pick
To Third contender team: Janmark
Ugene Magic
EVIL LAUGH
The SJS's paid 11.0 and had many saturated cap hits, and the Pens didn't implode due to Karlsson, they imploded last season and have not improved upon themselves.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
That's a monumentally dumb reason to say why another team won't trade a 1st for Karlsson.
- Jun 13, 2010
- 42,655
- 21,466
Jake Guentzel: I can see two types of trades - 1. Pure futures - 1st 2024 (conditional on CF or SCF), 1st 2025 (no conditions). 2. Future+prospects: High-end forward prospect (Lekkeimaki / Bourque / etc) + 1st. If there is retention, add a 2024/2025 3rd.
Marcus Pettersson: I think the Chychrun return is about the closest we have: 1st 2024 (top 5 protected) + 2024 2nd (conditional) + 2025/26 2nd (no conditions). I would also consider a young LD + 1st such as Bahl + 2024 1st as was discussed recently.
Reilly Smith: Didn't work out in Pittsburgh but he's still a very capable top 6 LW. I would ask for a no conditions 2nd. The 3rd he was traded for was low value because VGK had to cut cap and he had 2 years on his deal. I could see a situation too where it's a young bottom 6 forward + 3rd to help with salary. I don't see retention but if they do, raise the price obviously.
Alex Nedelkovich: Fantastic backup goalie. I'd rather resign him. If not, I'd want a 2nd because I know the market for BUGs is shit.
Lars Eller: No issues with him. Does a very fine 3C level job for us. 3rd.
Noel Acciari: Standard bottom 6 center signed reasonably for two more years. This would benefit the Penguins by giving them space and a roster spot do I would let him go for cheap. 4th rounder or a B-prospect.
Ryan Graves: Like Smith, hasn't worked out well in Pittsburgh but I doubt they dump him. If they do, it's for a similar contract.
Rickard Rakell: I like his game. Snake bit worse than anyone you'd ever see at the beginning of the year but he does contribute well to the team away from the puck so I'm more forgiving of his stats. I would think this would be a mere swap of players trade. Not sure what a prospect and/or futures deal would look like for him.
Bryan Rust: NMC so not likely to head out. I would ask for a comparable player. Ideally, a 3C. For example: Copp for Rust.
Tristan Jarry: Likely not available but there are plenty of teams in need of a legit starting goalie. I would think a Saros level value applies well.
Chad Rudwedel: Basic depth RD. 5th/6th I would bet. Reminds me of the Nathan Beaulieu trade several seasons ago where the Pen gave a 4th.
Pierre-Oliver Joseph: Again, I like his game and would rather keep him but I don't think he's going to get the nod from Sullivan. I would ask for a similar prospect in a similar situation. Before the arrest, I would have said Dillon Dube.
Drew O'Connor, Puustinen, Puljujarvi - Likely not worth anything.
Jansen Harkins, Jeff Carter, Colin White, Matt Nieto - I think they could be had for anything you are willing to offer. I would send any of them out for a 7th with retention. The roster spot means more than the return.
Marcus Pettersson: I think the Chychrun return is about the closest we have: 1st 2024 (top 5 protected) + 2024 2nd (conditional) + 2025/26 2nd (no conditions). I would also consider a young LD + 1st such as Bahl + 2024 1st as was discussed recently.
Reilly Smith: Didn't work out in Pittsburgh but he's still a very capable top 6 LW. I would ask for a no conditions 2nd. The 3rd he was traded for was low value because VGK had to cut cap and he had 2 years on his deal. I could see a situation too where it's a young bottom 6 forward + 3rd to help with salary. I don't see retention but if they do, raise the price obviously.
Alex Nedelkovich: Fantastic backup goalie. I'd rather resign him. If not, I'd want a 2nd because I know the market for BUGs is shit.
Lars Eller: No issues with him. Does a very fine 3C level job for us. 3rd.
Noel Acciari: Standard bottom 6 center signed reasonably for two more years. This would benefit the Penguins by giving them space and a roster spot do I would let him go for cheap. 4th rounder or a B-prospect.
Ryan Graves: Like Smith, hasn't worked out well in Pittsburgh but I doubt they dump him. If they do, it's for a similar contract.
Rickard Rakell: I like his game. Snake bit worse than anyone you'd ever see at the beginning of the year but he does contribute well to the team away from the puck so I'm more forgiving of his stats. I would think this would be a mere swap of players trade. Not sure what a prospect and/or futures deal would look like for him.
Bryan Rust: NMC so not likely to head out. I would ask for a comparable player. Ideally, a 3C. For example: Copp for Rust.
Tristan Jarry: Likely not available but there are plenty of teams in need of a legit starting goalie. I would think a Saros level value applies well.
Chad Rudwedel: Basic depth RD. 5th/6th I would bet. Reminds me of the Nathan Beaulieu trade several seasons ago where the Pen gave a 4th.
Pierre-Oliver Joseph: Again, I like his game and would rather keep him but I don't think he's going to get the nod from Sullivan. I would ask for a similar prospect in a similar situation. Before the arrest, I would have said Dillon Dube.
Drew O'Connor, Puustinen, Puljujarvi - Likely not worth anything.
Jansen Harkins, Jeff Carter, Colin White, Matt Nieto - I think they could be had for anything you are willing to offer. I would send any of them out for a 7th with retention. The roster spot means more than the return.
TheGroceryStick
Registered User
Dubas retool.
Find ways to trade picks, but gain picks.
Deck chair special.
1st for rental
Player for worse 1st
Yay 1st. Yay change.
Find ways to trade picks, but gain picks.
Deck chair special.
1st for rental
Player for worse 1st
Yay 1st. Yay change.
Ianturnedbull
Registered User
- Jun 11, 2022
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- 5,443
It is because I am not qualifying like you are. Everyone here who argues that Karlsson came to PIT for free is not being very honest with themselves.
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
The Sharks didn’t implode because of Karlsson either, but it still happened. Karlsson will be 35 to start next season. How on earth could you possibly think that he’ll have more value this summer than last summer, when he was coming off a Norris trophy? Pens fans talking about how they got Karlsson for “free” seem to not be understanding that now that Karlsson isn’t at his Norris level, no one is taking that contract even for free.
NHL GMs are monumentally dumb. But the other reason is that he is older and worse than when the Penguins supposedly acquired him for “free”. What makes you think they’ll be able to sell him for more than they paid for him?
Empoleon8771
Registered User
For someone who talked about the EK trade situation for at least a year before the trade happened, it's bizarre that you seem to have no understanding of it. The Sharks only got cap dumps, a 1st and 2nd for Karlsson because:
1. They weren't willing to retain a significant amount of money.
2. There was a very limited market for Karlsson due to a stagnant cap.
Why are we suddenly pretending those same criteria would apply to the Penguins hypothetically trading Karlsson in 2 years? The cap is projected to rise substantially starting in the near future and there is no indication that the Penguins would refuse to retain much money like the Sharks did.
If the Penguins decide to trade Karlsson at the 2026 trade deadline while being willing to retain more money on the remaining 1.5 years, they'd absolutely get a haul for him. Just because the Sharks gave up value on Karlsson by refusing to retain more money doesn't mean the Penguins would do the same.
- Jun 13, 2010
- 42,655
- 21,466
Remember though, the Penguins aren't rebuilding, they're still going to want to compete next year. So a 1st coming in then back out for a help-now player wouldn't be out of the question or realm of expectations.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
I also find the "no one would trade a 1st for Karlsson because teams imploded after acquiring Karlsson" take hilarious when you look at an extremely similar situation with Duchene in Ottawa, where they imploded after trading for Duchene but still got good value for a rental Duchene about a year and a half later.
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
Okay, fine, if the Penguins sell Karlsson for $5M in 2026 when he’s 37 years old and has just 1.5 years left on his contract and take back $5M worth of camp dumps, they may be able to get a late 1st from a contender. You got me there.
Ugene Magic
EVIL LAUGH
He'll be 34, but your premise still stands. Also, why the Pens did mot pay a premium is the low retention. A fact that they themselves would have to retain to get a 1st back.
But lets not dummy down Karlsson too much, he's on pace for 60 points even with a failing PP and a poorly constructed team.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Okay, fine, if the Penguins sell Karlsson for $5M in 2026 when he’s 37 years old and has just 1.5 years left on his contract, they may be able to get a late 1st from a contender. You got me there.
That has always been the context people have talked about when they say "the Penguins will be able to recover the value they traded for Karlsson". No one is talking about trading him right now, it's trading him in 2-3 years when Malkin and Crosby are on the verge of retiring and Karlsson would be basically a rental for whoever would acquire him.
If Karlsson doesn't regress much in the next 2-3 years, he'll absolutely bring back a haul when the Penguins decide to finally truly blow it up and start the rebuild.
