Tribute Kyle Dubas discussion

[TheDoldrums]

I don't think I'd extend Dubas unless the team wins 2 rounds. It might be a little unfair to need to win against both a 3 consecutive Cup finalist then probably the Cup favourite team. However the time for easy playoff wins passed with those choke jobs against Montreal and Columbus.

I think the organization would be sabotaging itself if they believed in this thought process. The only question should be who the best person for the job is going forward. Who is the best guy to make these decisions right now. Moving on from Dubas partly because the team choked 3-4 years ago is shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[Leaf Rocket]

I have not been on board the Dubas train in the past, as I found he was not able or not willing to build a winning team.

His over-emphasis on skill, bringing in small soft "skilled" players like Malgin and Petan, and the lack of any kind of hard to play against players throughout our lineup as opposed to the one random guy on the 4th line who was tough was maddening to see.

I hated the Kadri trade, the Foligno trade, the Marchment trade, the goalie carousel (exposing and losing McBackup, whiffing on Sparks etc) along with his trade for Matt Murray, and his decision to lose McCann at the ED to keep Holl or Kerfoot were high on my reasons for disliking Dubas as well.

Having said that, I can see his evolution as a GM, and recognizing (finally) that skill without will doesn't mean a damn thing in the playoffs. Every single one of his TDL acquisitions this year were a complete winner for me. ROR, Acciari, McCabe, Schenn, Lafferty are all exactly the kinds of players that we need in our lineup, and he made very shrewd deals to bring them in.

He's also demonstrated very good skill at identifying draft potential, with Knies at the head of line, along with Niemela and his pickup of Timmins was also a very smart piece of business.

I didn't like bringing an inexperienced GM to lead the Leafs and he's made mistakes, but I can see his evolution along with the modern approach that he takes. Even if we are eliminated in the 1st round this year, I am extending Dubas. We have built and developed him, just like any player we've drafted. We've watched him evolve and grow. Why are now going to send him to another team to be successful, and who are we replacing him with, who doesn't have his history and roots with our players and our long-term vision?

I'm extending Dubas no matter what the playoff outcome. If we are eliminated early, I place that blame on Keefe well-before Dubas' name comes up. Keefe first, then the players, then Dubas.

I would want to see what this team and players do with a coach different than Keefe before judging the players or Dubas, to be honest. A lot of that also depends on how we lose, if we do. If we go down fighting, playing hard and competing, it's very different than if our players don't show up and we look ugly and soft in the process.

Still a lot up in the air, but Dubas has shown me a lot this year, and I think that he's shown me that he's the right GM for us now and moving forward.

Very well said.

 

[justashadowof]

I think the organization would be sabotaging itself if they believed in this thought process. The only question should be who the best person for the job is going forward. Who is the best guy to make these decisions right now. Moving on from Dubas partly because the team choked 3-4 years ago is shooting yourself in the foot.

There's an underlying presumption here that I utterly dismiss: that there is no one out there capable of being a good NHL GM.

 

[Sypher04]

The Penguins should tear down that team this summer. The first move would be doing its superstar captain a huge favour (if he's up for it) and buying him out to start the tank/rebuild. Crosby's only got $6M left over the next 2 seasons. He's worth $10M aav easily on the open market even at 36. He could probably get something like 4 years $40M on the open market. Dead cap space is a neutral thing during a rebuild/tank, keeps the team from accidentally fortifying itself too much while reaching the salary floor.

As for the thread subject, let's allow the playoffs to play itself out first. I don't think I'd extend Dubas unless the team wins 2 rounds. It might be a little unfair to need to win against both a 3 consecutive Cup finalist then probably the Cup favourite team. However the time for easy playoff wins passed with those choke jobs against Montreal and Columbus.

That’s pretty nonsensical imo. If the Leafs win vs Tampa and lose a close fought series vs a team that bested literally everyone in the league by more 20 points in the standings, I don’t know how you justify axing Dubas over that result

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Sometimes your team is simply outclassed and/or outplayed. Other times its simply the luck of the draw that didn't go in your favor. Last year against the Lightning fell under the latter category where it could've so easily been a Leafs game 6 or a game 7 win to clinch the series instead of yet another loss and yet we were unlucky in both those games that went the other way.

Had it went the Leafs way we probably wouldn't be talking about Dubas leaving for at least a few more years and all because of a SINGLE series win without considering his entire body of work which warrants keeping him anyways? Makes no sense.




I get that the Leafs haven't won a playoff round since he took over, but I also look at the big picture as to how the team has been managed under his watch and to me he's done very well.

- mostly good trades
- few if any really bad contracts on the team
- a vastly improved prospect pool compared to a very bare cupboard before he took over
- mostly signing players to fair contracts
- ability to look in many places to find players and prospects to improve the team that previous GMs under explored or rarely if ever explored

I've seen enough bad Leafs GMs to now appreciate the work that Dubas has done. No one is perfect, but he's done far more to improve the team than any other Leafs GM has done in probably the last 20-30 years. We have a good team on the ice right now with a good pipeline of prospects to help the Leafs stay a good team for the future where before we had neither.

Dubas is lucky Shanahan is ONLY judging him on the outcome of this year's playoffs and not his entire tenure.

Otherwise he would have been gone already.

Dubas was brought in to take this team to the next level. Shanahan was probably thinking any moron could win the cup with the talent Dubas was provided. Boy, was he ever wrong.

As per Larry Tanenbaum himself: "Sports is a results oriented business"

We can argue about the trades, the signings, the contracts, and whether or not Dubas looks good in his fake glasses until we are blue in the face. One thing that is indisputable fact, however, is that this team hasn't won a damn thing with Dubas, Shanahan, and Keefe around. This is the fourth year the Leafs are facing a team that finished below them in them standings.

They lost to a far inferior Columbus team.

Then followed that up by losing to a Montreal team that didn't even finish above .500. A team that only won 24 of 56 games. That the Leafs had on the ropes up 3-1 in the series before collapsing.

WSH, BOS, BOS, CLB, MTL, TBL

From the best to the worst to the best again. It doesn't matter how good, or how bad, the opponent. Leafs lose to them all.

If they had won when they were supposed to win there could have been more leniency.

But they didn't. Now all fans see is an accumulation of failure and loss. Not to mention pissing away the easiest path to cup glory during the lockdown year.

So here we all are hoping and praying they can get past a Tampa dynasty on the decline instead.

 

[SprDaVE]

I've said for awhile that he should have received an extension prior to the season. He did his work regardless and has done pretty well. Now we can only hope that manifests into post season success for once... even mild success would be nice. We've had some pretty good consistency despite a lot of changes in the regular season. The cap was a major hurdle always navigated pretty well.

I do worry that he'll leave for a team like Pittsburgh or whoever changes up their front office. Seems like the perfect GM you want to overhaul your own front office and players like he did here. I don't think a lot of people seem to grasp how much worse we could be right now. I'm not sure many GMs could have gotten the team to be better than what we've seen.

But it's hard to deny that the last 3 playoff runs have been disasters and it's a business. You need to show post-season success. And it hasn't been completely perfect overall.

 

[Arzak]

You have to think at this point it's at least SC finals or he is gone.

If we fail to win it this year, we have a couple of months to decide what to do with our 3 NMCs kicking in.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Dubas is lucky Shanahan is ONLY judging him on the outcome of this year's playoffs and not his entire tenure.

Otherwise he would have been gone already.

Dubas was brought in to take this team to the next level. Shanahan was probably thinking any moron could win the cup with the talent Dubas was provided. Boy, was he ever wrong.

As per Larry Tanenbaum himself: "Sports is a results oriented business"

We can argue about the trades, the signings, the contracts, and whether or not Dubas looks good in his fake glasses until we are blue in the face. One thing that is indisputable fact, however, is that this team hasn't won a damn thing with Dubas, Shanahan, and Keefe around. This is the fourth year the Leafs are facing a team that finished below them in them standings.

They lost to a far inferior Columbus team.

Then followed that up by losing to a Montreal team that didn't even finish above .500. A team that only won 24 of 56 games. That the Leafs had on the ropes up 3-1 in the series before collapsing.

WSH, BOS, BOS, CLB, MTL, TBL

From the best to the worst to the best again. It doesn't matter how good, or how bad, the opponent. Leafs lose to them all.

If they had won when they were supposed to win there could have been more leniency.

But they didn't. Now all fans see is an accumulation of failure and loss. Not to mention pissing away the easiest path to cup glory during the lockdown year.

So here we all are hoping and praying they can get past a Tampa dynasty on the decline instead.

What if you were a big picture thinker and evaluated the organization before and after?

 

[Strangle]

But when it will start being his responsibility? Or is it never?

It would be Dubas responsibility if he didn’t keep improving the team.

this Leaf team should have beaten Montreal.

 

[Ciao]

That's a defeatist attitude if I ever saw one.

Roll over and play dead just like the team itself.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy it for one second. I think ML$E takes the fans attitude a lot more serious than you would believe. If you think for one second they don't come on forums and message boards and scour the blogs for insight on the fans attitude you are sorely mistaken.

The arrogance of this franchise is astonishing

But EVERY organization still takes the pulse of the hand that feeds it.

Roll over and play dead? ROFL.

Like when I'm watching the Leafs live or on-screen there's anything I can say or do that would influence their performance? Maybe if I cheer harder they would win? If I were a better sports-watcher that would bring them to the Stanley Cup?

Their wins are their wins, and their losses are their losses, not mine. I'm just a sports watcher. I'm not on their team. It's not like if I become more or less invested something different would happen.

For me watching the Leafs is just entertainment. A pleasant pastime.

If it's not working for you, then don't watch them. Read a book. Go for a walk. Cuddle up with your wife. There's lots of other things to do

 

[Contenderorpretender]

Keep dubas. Fire Keefe.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Penguins Prepared to Make Dubas Big Offer This Summer [Report] - The Hockey Writers Latest News, Analysis & More

If Kyle Dubas doesn't sign an extension with the Toronto Maple Leafs, expect the Pittsburgh Penguins to press hard to bring him in.

thehockeywriters.com

What Insiders Are Saying About Dubas and the Penguins

Mark Madden (who covers the Penguins) writes, “Dubas to Penguins whispers are getting louder.” Meanwhile, Elliotte Friedman noted on a recent episode of the Jeff Marek Show that the Penguins have a plan to build out their analytics department and it’s a project Pittsburgh has been working on for some time. It would make sense that looking to someone like Dubas — who is known as an analytics guy — would make sense.

Chris Johnston of TSN noted during an episode of The Chris Johnston Show that there is more and more talk of the Penguins being interested in Dubas but that he doesn’t have any specific information regarding their interest in him. That said, he remains shocked that Toronto hasn’t already extended Dubas and he says he would be surprised if Dubas elected to leave Toronto on his own. It would likely need to be the Maple Leafs choosing to move on, not Dubas choosing to move on from Toronto.

Mike Stephens of The Hockey News and SInow writes, “The rumblings that I’ve heard at least are that Fenway Sports Group is ready to put the full-court press on Kyle Dubas if he leaves Toronto.” He admitted he’s not personally an insider, but did say that his sources on this one are quite credible.

NHL Writer, Jeff Veillette writes: “FWIW I think if there’s a silver bullet the Penguins could have for Dubas, it’s not money, but Fenway Sports Group (FSG).” He adds, “Depending on what role they want to slot him in, there might be some interest there to have the Boston Red Sox & Liverpool FC in his long-view. MLSE’s king of kings is already Masai.”

 

[Kiwi]

I'd have resigned him last off-season

I think he's done a good job and he seems to be getting better as he gains experience.
This years TDL was excellent and I thought the off-season was pretty solid even though I didn't like the Murray trade.
I like how we've drafted and developed as well

If you believe in the direction of the team you commit to it, I do so I'd back him
I don't really agree with the old wait and see strategy we've taken

 

[TML Dynasty]

I have not been on board the Dubas train in the past, as I found he was not able or not willing to build a winning team.

His over-emphasis on skill, bringing in small soft "skilled" players like Malgin and Petan, and the lack of any kind of hard to play against players throughout our lineup as opposed to the one random guy on the 4th line who was tough was maddening to see.

I hated the Kadri trade, the Foligno trade, the Marchment trade, the goalie carousel (exposing and losing McBackup, whiffing on Sparks etc) along with his trade for Matt Murray, and his decision to lose McCann at the ED to keep Holl or Kerfoot were high on my reasons for disliking Dubas as well.

Having said that, I can see his evolution as a GM, and recognizing (finally) that skill without will doesn't mean a damn thing in the playoffs. Every single one of his TDL acquisitions this year were a complete winner for me. ROR, Acciari, McCabe, Schenn, Lafferty are all exactly the kinds of players that we need in our lineup, and he made very shrewd deals to bring them in.

He's also demonstrated very good skill at identifying draft potential, with Knies at the head of line, along with Niemela and his pickup of Timmins was also a very smart piece of business.

I didn't like bringing an inexperienced GM to lead the Leafs and he's made mistakes, but I can see his evolution along with the modern approach that he takes. Even if we are eliminated in the 1st round this year, I am extending Dubas. We have built and developed him, just like any player we've drafted. We've watched him evolve and grow. Why are now going to send him to another team to be successful, and who are we replacing him with, who doesn't have his history and roots with our players and our long-term vision?

I'm extending Dubas no matter what the playoff outcome. If we are eliminated early, I place that blame on Keefe well-before Dubas' name comes up. Keefe first, then the players, then Dubas.

I would want to see what this team and players do with a coach different than Keefe before judging the players or Dubas, to be honest. A lot of that also depends on how we lose, if we do. If we go down fighting, playing hard and competing, it's very different than if our players don't show up and we look ugly and soft in the process.

Still a lot up in the air, but Dubas has shown me a lot this year, and I think that he's shown me that he's the right GM for us now and moving forward.

I like a lot of this post but am even easier on him:
I see why he thought Kadri needed to go...didnt like it either....but was pumped for Barrie. What a letdown that was. Thought Kerfoot was a possible gem too.
Foligno was a medical staff failure.
Marchment's improvement was damn near unforeseeable.....but its his job to see that so ok i see that a bit.
Goalies are voodo. This season was a huge risk with our choices but not a lot of options and he didnt lock us into something we cannot get out of.
Mccann seemed weird totally agree.....i get the D prices were crazy but didnt like that either.

The biggest knock from his detractors seems to be the big 3 contracts, but id argue that is basically blaming him for not predicting the pandemic/flat cap.

I like him. Lock him up. The only possible reason I can think of is if he's said hes a ride or die with Sheldon as his coach and this is a wait and see how the coach does. Dubas has done his job. Im on the fence with the coach.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I like a lot of this post but am even easier on him:
I see why he thought Kadri needed to go...didnt like it either....but was pumped for Barrie. What a letdown that was. Thought Kerfoot was a possible gem too.
Foligno was a medical staff failure.
Marchment's improvement was damn near unforeseeable.....but its his job to see that so ok i see that a bit.
Goalies are voodo. This season was a huge risk with our choices but not a lot of options and he didnt lock us into something we cannot get out of.
Mccann seemed weird totally agree.....i get the D prices were crazy but didnt like that either.

The biggest knock from his detractors seems to be the big 3 contracts, but id argue that is basically blaming him for not predicting the pandemic/flat cap.

I like him. Lock him up. The only possible reason I can think of is if he's said hes a ride or die with Sheldon as his coach and this is a wait and see how the coach does. Dubas has done his job. Im on the fence with the coach.

This is pretty much how I see things as well. His one big clear cut mistake IMO was giving Marner 11M when 9-9.5 would have been fair, and that the contract was 6 years is a bit of extra salt in the wound. Matthews got too much as well, maybe easier to forgive as he was a 1st overall pick blah blah blah.

My one big worry - does he take the concept of loyalty too far? Promising not to trade Nylander, there's zero reason to say something like that, ever. And like you said, Keefe, if he's married to Keefe, then that's really bad. So yeah I'm a bit worried about the loyalty thing and I also don't want to see the next round of contract amounts for the stars being vomit-worthy. But I kind of doubt they will so ... I'm where I've been at for years, IMO Dubas has done more good than bad so extend him. Now that we've gone this far though, I can understand waiting until at least the TB series and if lose to them I don't mind going with someone new but whatever, I also feel like we're going to crush TB so not an issue.

GLG!!

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Roll over and play dead? ROFL.

Like when I'm watching the Leafs live or on-screen there's anything I can say or do that would influence their performance? Maybe if I cheer harder they would win? If I were a better sports-watcher that would bring them to the Stanley Cup?

Their wins are their wins, and their losses are their losses, not mine. I'm just a sports watcher. I'm not on their team. It's not like if I become more or less invested something different would happen.

For me watching the Leafs is just entertainment. A pleasant pastime.

If it's not working for you, then don't watch them. Read a book. Go for a walk. Cuddle up with your wife. There's lots of other things to do

Maybe if you were more invested and vocal something would happen.

Is it your favourite team or not? Do you spend money supporting them year after year? Do you care about this team in any way?

If you answered yes to any of those questions, you have earned your right to protest the way it's been managed.

If you are happy with the results so far, that's good for you.

I'm not. And neither are a lot of other fans. That's on ML$E.

We're not getting what we paid for.

Shanahan promised us a contender? Where is it? Because right now this team has not contended for a damn thing all these years.

That might change this year. Or it might not. We will find out in just a couple weeks.

One way or another, I'm almost guaranteed to get what I want this year.

 

[Jmo89]

He's made some big mistakes but he's improving Imo. Not much point in getting rid of him now that he's worked through his growing pains.

He's given the players what they need to win and its up to them now. If they fail again Keefe needs to go and some hard decisions need to be made about the core.

 

[Ciao]

Maybe if you were more invested and vocal something would happen. SURE. WHATEVER.

Is it your favourite team or not? YES, FOR NOW. THE BLUE JAYS ARE LOOKING GOOD, AND I LIKE THE ARGOS. ITS NOT LIKE WE'VE TRADED FRIENDSHIP RINGS OR SOMETHING. CURLING IS GREAT, AND I LOVE WATCHING MANOAH PITCH. THE LEAFS ARE IN THE MIX.

Do you spend money supporting them year after year? A BIT, BUT NOT A LOT.

Do you care about this team in any way? SURE, ENOUGH TO FOLLOW THEM.

If you answered yes to any of those questions, you have earned your right to protest the way it's been managed. PROTEST IF YOU LIKE. ITS FREE. THERES NO ADMISSION FEE.

If you are happy with the results so far, that's good for you.THANKS

I'm not. I GUESS YOU'RE SPECIAL. YOU DESERVE BETTER. And neither are a lot of other fans.FOR SURE. That's on ML$E. NO, THAT'S ON THE FANS WHO MISTAKENLY THINK THEY'RE PART OF THE TEAM.

We're not getting what we paid for. WELL, ACTUALLY, YOU DID GET WHAT YOU PAID FOR. ENTERTAINMENT. TEAM A PLAYS TEAM B - ONE TEAM WINS AND ONE TEAM LOSES. YOU PAID FOR THE ENTERTAINMENT OF WATCHING THEM PLAY. YOU GOT WHAT YOU PAID FOR.

Shanahan promised us a contender? Where is it? Because right now this team has not contended for a damn thing all these years. THE FOURTH-PLACE TEAM IN A 32-TEAM LEAGUE IS A CONTENDER. NO ONE IS STUPID ENOUGH TO PROMISE PLAYOFF SUCCESS, EVEN IF SOME ARE STUPID ENOUGH TO THINK THAT'S BEEN PROMISED.

That might change this year. Or it might not. We will find out in just a couple weeks.

One way or another, I'm almost guaranteed to get what I want this year. WHAT DO YOU WANT?

 

[Menzinger]

I'm sure they've had discussions with Dubas about it.
Not everything needs to be public knowledge.

I'm sure they have, most of this front office stuff does tend to happen out of sight of the public/media (ie the Burke firing seemed to lack any rumors beforehand) But imo the process has been made more complicated than it needed to be based on how it's unfolded.

 

[ULF_55]

Been hearing NHL is a results league lately. By that Dubas has failed unless his cast steps up for him the rest of the season and makes the playoffs.

Agreed.

However, since he was hired as GM how many other GM's have won the Cup?

 

[Stephen]

I'm sure they have, most of this front office stuff does tend to happen out of sight of the public/media (ie the Burke firing seemed to lack any rumors beforehand) But imo the process has been made more complicated than it needed to be based on how it's unfolded.

I find the laziest Toronto sports storylines is the constant threat of someone doing well with one eye towards the exit, the ever present offer sheet and greener pastures.

Masai Ujiri was going to leave to go to Washington or head some UN mission. Auston Matthews is going to go to Los Angeles to play for the 8th most popular franchise in that market. Pontus Holmberg could be the recipient of an offer sheet. Before that it was Rasmus Sandin. Dubas is going to head the entire Fenway sports empire.

Well, MLSE has a lot of money and resources and the Toronto Maple Leafs is Kyle Dubas' in progress creation, for better or for worse. If they want Dubas back, there's no limitation on what they can offer him in salary and Pittsburgh is a franchise with an aging core and probably a 5-7 year rebuild ahead of them. If Dubas ultimately wants to leave that's his choice, but I don't see greener pastures in Pittsburgh.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Shanahan promised us a contender? Where is it? Because right now this team has not contended for a damn thing all these years. THE FOURTH-PLACE TEAM IN A 32-TEAM LEAGUE IS A CONTENDER. NO ONE IS STUPID ENOUGH TO PROMISE PLAYOFF SUCCESS, EVEN IF SOME ARE STUPID ENOUGH TO THINK THAT'S BEEN PROMISED.

That might change this year. Or it might not. We will find out in just a couple weeks.

One way or another, I'm almost guaranteed to get what I want this year. WHAT DO YOU WANT?

I'm sorry, but by your own admission, Shanahan must be stupid then. Because he did promise a cup:

SIMMONS: At his lowest point, Maple Leafs president Brendan Shanahan still promises the Stanley Cup

Brendan Shanahan came to Toronto to bring the Stanley Cup to his home town.

torontosun.com

Finishing fourth place in the league also doesn't make a contender. Not when they go out first round every year. A contender actually, you know, wins something.

Which this team hasn't.

What do I want?

What I want is simple. I want what the fans were promised: a contending team. Or I want accountability.

Someone needs to be held accountable for all the annual first round losses to inferior opponents.

I'm glad your happy supporting a losing team for all these years. I'm sorry I have more pride in my hometown team and set higher expectations. I don't have a loser mentality that allows me to accept losers losing and expecting people to cheer for them to make millions of dollars to play a game and lose.

If that makes you a better man than I, then wear that badge with honour.

You deserve it.

 

[kevsh]

I've given Dubas a lot of heat over the past few years but I am very impressed overall with what he's done this season.

From the off-season acquisitions to the major moves (both in quantity & quality) at the deadline -outside of the Murray deal - he's put together a solid, playoff-ready roster. ROR is exactly what this team needs in so many ways, a solid top 4 D in McCabe, tenacity in Acciari, middle 6 scoring in Jarnkrok, and Samsonov has been solid in net. Bonus golf clap for moving out soft-as-puddy Engvall.

Of course the real test is how they fare in the playoffs, and fairly or not his job almost certainly depends on it. But for me, this post-season is really on the players. They have no excuse given the roster that Dubas has given them, they're pretty much injury-free and facing a Bolts team that while still a force is not the same group that just barely got by the Buds last year.

Just for the love of all that is good and my anxiety, do NOT let this first round go the distance, please? Jump on the Bolts and put them away quickly. Leafs in 5 or oh boy.

 

[IPS]

I'm seeing a lot of counting of the chickens before the eggs hatch.

If this team bombs out in the 1st round again there's gonna be a much different tune around here, I'm certain of that.

But I'm not entertaining that very much, I swear this is the time where the Leafs are not only gonna defeat an opponent in the playoffs - but dominate them. Tampa isn't much this year.

 

[Leaf Rocket]

I'm sure they have, most of this front office stuff does tend to happen out of sight of the public/media (ie the Burke firing seemed to lack any rumors beforehand) But imo the process has been made more complicated than it needed to be based on how it's unfolded.

I had some intel on that and that was gonna happen regardless of what the stance of the team was TBH. As soon as the new ownership came in, and on top of Liewicke wanted a clean slate and TML was too important of a brand they needed to figure out. I mean there is a reason why we don't brand with Diamond&Diamond anymore It was necessary to restructure things and make their own imprint on things. It became a LOT more tight-lipped afterward for changing brand alignment, marketing, and overall direction.