Knowing what we know - who do you draft in a re-draft? 18 yr old Crosby or 18 yr old McDavid?

[JohanFranzenstein]

Crosby. Dude dragged bottom 6ers to 50+ point seasons.

 

[Fatass]

How do you know Edmonton has cups with Crosby and no Malkin?

It's McDavid. Close this.

We don’t know. But the thread is a fantasy. “Knowing what we know now” who would we draft? We know now Crosby led his club to three Cups. I’d want to draft Crosby and have my club win those three Cups. The thread isn’t about who between the two players is better; it’s about the fantasy of having that player on your club from his draft year and the accomplishments he attains. That’s three Cups (in the fantasy world of this thread) I want for my club.

 

[Regal]

We don’t know. But the thread is a fantasy. “Knowing what we know now” who would we draft? We know now Crosby led his club to three Cups. I’d want to draft Crosby and have my club win those three Cups. The thread isn’t about who between the two players is better; it’s about the fantasy of having that player on your club from his draft year and the accomplishments he attains. That’s three Cups (in the fantasy world of this thread) I want for my club.

I don’t believe the premise is that their careers pan out exactly the same and Crosby wins three cups regardless. It wouldn’t even be a debate if that was the case

 

[the_fan]

actually find it interesting. seeing a lot of the same posters for the last 15 years or so debating ovi and crosby and now mcd and crosby.

Speaking of Ovi, he couldn’t win the cup until he learned to back check and realized that scoring points alone wasn’t enough. He did all the other dirty work which led to cup win

 

[Fatass]

I don’t believe the premise is that their careers pan out exactly the same and Crosby wins three cups regardless. It wouldn’t even be a debate if that was the case

Well, the thread does say “knowing what we know”, which I interpret one way and you another. I want Crosby and the three Cups on my club.

 

[Darren McCord]

Even in the playoffs McDavids PPG is killing Crosby.

It is easier when you don't have to play as many playoff games

 

[kook10]

Crosby. He had to fight through much more than the very mild penalties these days. There was no red carpet for skilled players.

 

[Mrb1p]

Does Sid get injured or no?

 

[CupofOil]

As an Oiler/McDavid fan, I'd take Crosby. He just played more "winning" hockey than McDavid at this point in their careers, a lot more story to be written for McDavid but as of now, I'd take Crosby.
When all else is equal, I'd take the better overall player. McDavid is better offensively than Crosby was but Crosby is arguably one of the more well rounded elite players ever.

 

[Mrb1p]

Does Crosby still get his concussions?


Not really. Crosby was awful vs the Islanders and Montreal and that's why they lost. Rangers series is a different story.

I dont think he was bad against the Habs. Price was just in top form and a complete animal. Nobody on the Pens looked good in that miniseries, but Sid was the best. Of course you want more.

If theres one player that can make Sidney Crosby look bad, its Carey Price though.

 

[Regal]

Well, the thread does say “knowing what we know”, which I interpret one way and you another. I want Crosby and the three Cups on my club.

I’m almost positive that’s not what the OP was implying, as it also says “how they panned out as players” and later suggests McDavid might win more on a better team, but ok. I get that for the Pens they’d rather keep Crosby and the success they’ve had than see if things could be better with McDavid, but the implication is a “redo”, meaning the Pens might not still win those cups.

 

[Fatass]

I’m almost positive that’s not what the OP was implying, but ok

From the op.
“Winning Pedigree. Crosby has an insane winning pedigree in his career, that has followed him at every level, juniors, NHL playoffs (and also, simply qualifying for playoffs) and internationally. And - as his team's best player (or one of at times), he generally deserves a lot of credit for his team's successes.”

Seems to me the op is suggesting in this fantasy thread the winning comes with the player. That’s three Cups I want on my club.

 

[Caps8112]

Speaking of Ovi, he couldn’t win the cup until he learned to back check and realized that scoring points alone wasn’t enough. He did all the other dirty work which led to cup win

ovi may have back checked a little haha (jk he did a lot in that playoff run) but the "real" reason he finally won is he scored his usual pace of points in the playoffs like every year but .............someone else on his team actually scored 20 points with him just like every time Crosby won a cup

 

[the_fan]

ovi may have back checked a little haha (jk he did a lot in that playoff run) but the "real" reason he finally won is he scored his usual pace of points in the playoffs like every year but .............someone else on his team actually scored 20 points with him just like every time Crosby won a cup

It is a team sport and one player alone can’t win the cup, but when your best player plays both ends of the ice and does everything needed to win, that’s what puts you on top. I don’t see McDavid doing that. I see him do it in the offensive zone and not much else. And he produces on PP, I’ll give him that, but 5 on 5 he needs to do a lot more if Oilers gonna win the cup, and I’m not just talking about putting up points. He needs to do more of the dirty work as well

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

And your evidence is to randomly cherry pick a small sample size?

I watched every single one of those games.

But tell me how much you know because you arbitrarily picked that as your hill to die on.

I swear most of this site has never played a game before.

They just sort by stats and think it’s fantasy football where a 300 yard QB did better than a 250 yard QB.

24 games is hardly a "small sample size"

but the main argument for Crosby is his "all-around defensive game" and "doing whatever it takes to win" and I'm showing statistically how that he was on for a ton of goals that playoffs

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

I don’t care about those stats. Crosby made a big enough difference and impacted the game in the playoffs in a way I haven’t seen McDavid do. I haven’t seen McDavid impact the game defensively at all.

in the 2 recent Pens Cup seasons (2016 and 2017), Crosby was on the ice at ES for a team-worst 37 goal against...5 more than teammate Brain Dumoulin
he on-ice goal differential as ES ins a whopping +2 (39 GF-37GA)

McDavid? +12 in goal differential

and of course you don't care about stats, it flies in the face of your narrative

All he cares about is putting up points, and majority of his offense comes on power plays. He’s a definition of one dimensional player

McDavid led the entire playoffs in ES scoring in 2022 despite not even playing in the Final so you're dead wrong

quit while you're behind

 

[dirtydanglez]

mcdavid is just on a different tier

 

[the_fan]

in the 2 recent Pens Cup seasons (2016 and 2017), Crosby was on the ice at ES for a team-worst 37 goal against...5 more than teammate Brain Dumoulin
he on-ice goal differential as ES ins a whopping +2 (39 GF-37GA)

McDavid? +12 in goal differential

and of course you don't care about stats, it flies in the face of your narrative


McDavid led the entire playoffs in ES scoring in 2022 despite not even playing in the Final so you're dead wrong

quit while you're behind

In 2022, but what about this year? Seemed like all Oilers offense came on PP and they couldn’t score 5 on 5. Also I don’t care about overall stats you bring up. It’s what you do at key moments of key playoff games where one play can make a difference, and McDavid has been on the wrong end of those moments whether with a turnover or lazy on back check. Crosby has had enough of those moments for his team to win championships

 

[pi314]

24 games is hardly a "small sample size"

but the main argument for Crosby is his "all-around defensive game" and "doing whatever it takes to win" and I'm showing statistically how that he was on for a ton of goals that playoffs

Did you watch any of those games or just cherry pick one playoff run?

Of a guy who is top 5 in playoff points ever.

Been to 4 cups. Won 3. 2 Conn Smythes.

Been above a PPG for 18 straight years.

Won just about every award possible.

Has won at every level.

Internationally too.

And has been winning everywhere he's been since he was 9 years old.

And his peers, NHL players that actually play against him, voted numerous years in a row that he is the best all around player.

But yeah. Let's cherry pick 24 games to make your point.

How does these people even tie their shoes in the morning?

 

[Gunnersaurus Rex]

It is a team sport and one player alone can’t win the cup, but when your best player plays both ends of the ice and does everything needed to win, that’s what puts you on top. I don’t see McDavid doing that. I see him do it in the offensive zone and not much else. And he produces on PP, I’ll give him that, but 5 on 5 he needs to do a lot more if Oilers gonna win the cup, and I’m not just talking about putting up points. He needs to do more of the dirty work as well

Crosby - 180 GP, +18
McDavid - 49 GP, +16
What's that about 5 on 5 again ???

 

[Midnight Judges]

Points aren’t everything. There are more ways you can impact the game. Again just go by each cup winning team and compare the star players. Those players on cup winning teams may not have as many points as McDavid but they impacted the game in other ways. Again, a simple block shot can impact a game in a playoff series. I’m not sure if I’ve seen McDavid block a shot

Ah. So you think Crosby prevents enough goals to more than offset the difference in production between a 50 goal / 169 point pace and a 21 goal / 65 point pace.

So basically Sidney Crosby is by far the greatest defensive player in the entire history of hockey.

Yet somehow none of this is reflected in their respective plus minus stats (Crosby was a minus player in the 2016 playoffs. McDavid was plus 15 in the 2022 playoffs I cited). How do you explain that?

 

[TheGuiminator]

As a GM, I’d pick Crosby

Of course McDavid is better than Crosby ever was offensively, and yes, even if you give Crosby an extra Hart, Art Ross and Lindsay in 2011 & 2013. Healthy or not, he was never gonna reach McDavid’s level offensively in his peak years.

However, Crosby remains in the same tier talent as McDavid and has a winning pedigree that McDavid doesn’t necessarily have, I think peak Crosby brings more value in a team/franchise than peak McDavid does.

It’s not an accident that Crosby became a Stanley cup finalist at 20 & Stanley Cup champion at 21 (both as captain). He was a born winner

 

[Midnight Judges]

I remember game 7 against Ovechkin where he had 2 defensive turnovers, both leading to goals, in a game they lost 2-0.

Yeah there's definitely no way Sidney Crosby would ever fumble the puck onto Alex Ovechkin's blade who would send away Kuznetsov to end Crosby's season in overtime of a playoff game 6. Nope. Never happened.



You were saying? Oh yeah.

Of course, it’s the team’s fault.

Regardless, you stated flat out falsehods about Ovechkin. He didn't have possession for either of the turnovers you dishonestly claimed were his fault.

 

[Midnight Judges]

It’s not an accident that Crosby became a Stanley cup finalist at 20 & Stanley Cup champion at 21 (both as captain). He was a born winner

Indeed having another player on the team that is better than Sid was a brilliant move by Sid. Sid is playing 4 dimensional chess here obviously.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Crosby - 180 GP, +18
McDavid - 49 GP, +16
What's that about 5 on 5 again ???

Crosby was also +16 49 games into his playoff career. And wasn't playing with Draisaitl the majority of his games.

But using +/- for a sample size like this is really weak anyway. The games are available on the internet to watch and evaluate each player's defense in the playoffs.