Kitchener Rangers 2022-23 Season Thread (Part 2)

[Tim Wallach]

I think you're being a little too harsh on vanilla by comparing it to this team. Vanilla is a perfectly good flavour. This team dreams it was as good as vanilla.

Good point. My apologies to vanilla.

 

[EvenSteven]

This team just sorely lacks talent. That’s the biggest issue of the long list of issues. Just a collection of vanilla players. It’s actually remarkably hard to draft so many players without any standout attributes. That is like bizarro scouting.

The loss of leadership in guys like Xhekaj and Petizian cannot be understated.

Who is our heart and soul leader this year?? I know we aren’t in the room, but quite often, you can get a good idea of leadership from on ice play.

And usually, you can see future leadership based on the play of the younger players. I just don’t see it. I don’t see current leadership. And I don’t see our future leadership either. Usually you can predict who’ll be next year’s captain. For the life of me, I can’t. Not with this group. The closest thing might be Andonovski but he’s a couple years away.

When we hired DeBoer, an experienced coach in this league, he had an idea of players around the league and of the Rangers. His first order of business was to bring in a captain. Nick Policelli. He put his stamp on the team with an exclamation mark.

In a way, by naming Pinelli captain last year, that option was taken away from Dennis this year, if he were so inclined, to make his mark on this year’s team coming in.

Pinelli by the way, who, by the time he was named captain, hadn’t really done anything at this level justify it. Again, we’re not in the room, but …….

 

[Tim Wallach]

Yes and Deboer also balanced his lineup with all of the elements you need. Finishers, play makers, speed demons, size, toughness, bangers, battlers, forecheckers, face off guys, emotional leaders, swag, etc. Everyone has a unique identity that complemented the team formula. And he held everyone accountable. If a vet say took an unsportsmanlike penalty in a 2-1 game, we wouldn’t see him again that night.

This team is absolutely nothing like those teams or like any successfully built team.

And all due respect to Brown but how delusional do you have to be to suggest Pinelli has a shot at Team Canada. I promise you he isn’t even in the room next door to where they keep the radar.

 

[rangersblues]

Yes and Deboer also balanced his lineup with all of the elements you need. Finishers, play makers, speed demons, size, toughness, bangers, battlers, forecheckers, face off guys, emotional leaders, swag, etc. Everyone has a unique identity that complemented the team formula. And he held everyone accountable. If a vet say took an unsportsmanlike penalty in a 2-1 game, we wouldn’t see him again that night.

This team is absolutely nothing like those teams or like any successfully built team.

And all due respect to Brown but how delusional do you have to be to suggest Pinelli has a shot at Team Canada. I promise you he isn’t even in the room next door to where they keep the radar.

I can't overstate how disappointed I am with Pinelli's development this season. Especially playing with Mesar on his wing. The team's lack of success is not all on him but his lack of development sums up this organization's problems in a nutshell.

 

[EvenSteven]

Look, our 04 group is weak. I get that this crop was affected by Covid, but that issue was league wide and would have affected every team in the same way. No excuses.

Had this group been as strong as, say, our 03 group, this team would be that much farther ahead. Is that drafting, development or a combination of both? Likely both.

Had the LeBlanc’s panned out, Andrew would have been a valuable top six F and Jacob would have been a top four calibre D right now in their third year. Jacob was actually doing ok but the novelty of drafting twins burned us. Needing to trade Andrew forced us to trade Jacob and likely lowered their value further. Had they not been related, Jacob is likely a Ranger today.

All we have to show for them right now are the picks we got for them. (2nd. 3rd. 3rd. 5th). Could MM turn those picks into a top six F and a top four D that would help this team advance up the standings this year? I’m not holding my breath.

Of the remaining 04’s, Swick is only ok - so far. There is hope. But as a 3rd rounder into this league, he should be contributing more by now. Pugliese and Miseljevic are trying and have their moments, but you’d have to wonder if they’re even on this team if Andrew had panned out and Hage reported. The only real bright light among the 04 group is Parsons.

It’s been said on here in the past that Brzustewicz, Hamara and Mesar coming on board salvaged the value of our 04 group. But to be honest, had our drafted 04’s panned out like they should have, the addition of those three would have turned the 04 group from being pretty good into being high end and therefore, helped this team become high end. Instead, their addition to an already poor 04 group just brings the level of that group back up to just good. Good isn’t good enough to win championships.

And actually, I’d argue that it’s a given that incoming imports are at least pretty good anyway and not really a part of the 04 group that our scouting team is responsible for. Drafting them has nothing to do with the scouting and drafting of players in the OHL draft.

Going forward, the team’s prospects for the immediate future aren’t all that good to be honest. Because of the poor 04 group, we have holes in the lineup. The 05 group looks promising. (But I’m disappointed that we needed to trade for 05’s instead of having any from our drafted group make the team out of camp this year).

With Hage and Longacre as no reports, the 06 group has glaring holes in the lineup.

You can’t build championship calibre teams when you have misses every second year at the draft.

03 group - good
04 group - bad
05 group - good
06 group - bad
07 group - good? We’ll see.

You need a run of good drafts to give yourself a chance to win. The holes in this lineup created by the bad 04 group has affected this year’s team negatively.

The situation only gets worse next year with bad 04 and 06 groups. Will Longacre show up? Will anyone else from that 06 group make the team out of camp and contribute. Will anyone from this group that we may have taken flyers on report?

Bottom line is, MM has to sell this year and sell hard. Next year would be a rebuild year as well. The assets gained this year in the sale of Pinelli, Schmidt, Mesar, and Costantini, along with the assets gained next year in the sale of Brzustewicz, Hamara, and Martin (OA), would fill the holes in the 06 group and give this team a chance at a three year run of competing starting in 24-25.

Question is, does MM plan on being around here that long? Does he plan on moving up to the next level sooner than later? Another couple losing seasons wouldn’t do well for his resume. Does he feel he’d need to go all in this year to salvage the season and put an exclamation mark on that resume?

Is he even on the radar of executives at the next level? Or, based on his current resume, does he have as much a chance of moving up anytime soon as Pinelli has of making this year’s WJC team?

 

[bobber]

Looking at the big picture at the Aud the whole thing stinks from the top down. You got a bunch of long time grifter directors there for free season tickets. After so many years they get lifetime season tickets and some of their siblings are directors. If a coach is fired, they are called into a meeting. Most of these people never played a game of hockey in their lives other than road hockey with rubber boots on. The scouts have been stale for years. I still feel that Pinelli and Rehkopf were passed on because of short comings. Lablanc, Valade and Grayson should have never been 1st picks. MM is here because of his father's name and pushed up the ladder. He hired Dennis. He screwed the pooch last draft plus the hiring. Rangers have a great opportunity with 2 first next draft. Doubt this group takes advantage. Saginaw finished dead last and is first in the west. That should be a measuring stick for the Ranger management.

 

[Coaches Coroner]

It's a country club more than a hockey team, and they're spoiled off the ice whether they do well or do terribly. They whiff on so many plays they work to set up that it feels like the team doesn't even hold practices.

A couple of camera shots at the bench showed one of the assistants fired up after Valade was given an unsportsmanlike right after Serpa was punched in the back of the head, and Dennis was almost blankly nodding, no emotion...I dunno my gut feeling was (and this is based of little) that maybe Wideman is getting ready to take over the interim job or something.

 

[LordStanley1967]

I do not comment much. I always see teams as a personality of the executive group. This team plays a boring up and down game. Chip in and chase the puck. I am not going to mention names but there are 6 forwards with no goals and 7 with less than 6 points. The team plays with no creativity. Mesar is an example of what's wrong with this team and do not blame the players. If mesar was playing in the GTHL they would have passed on him and he would playing on another OHL team and doing great and they would have picked up a bigger slower more conservative player because that is what they like. Most of the forwards are the same. And then coaching wants them to play north south safe chip in hockey.

Teams that are this bad should be loaded with 05/06s. They brought the whole team back and then added Morley and Scott. Who I believe both were board member favours. Scott was added as our necessity. Morley was a 05 that we trade to sign as the 15th forward. The kid that was beat out by 06s at his attack camp.
The draft picks take 2-3 years to develop. If we have 2 top 11 picks next year I doubt they screw it up. Maybe in 2 years from now the team will be ok.
But I think a new leadership team is needed. Not because it's bad this year because it has been doing downhill and we are still looking down.

 

[bobber]

If a light bulb came on down at the Aud and reality set in what would the value of the best players be in the market at this point in the season? I am sure MM is fielding a lot of calls at the moment. The vultures will be circling the carcass here. Mesar ,Pinelli, Schmidt, Brzustewicz , Martin, Serpa and Valade would all be mentioned. Along with Constantini who seems to be struggling with a weak defense in front of him. They certainly would have to entertain bringing some young players in via trade. There is only one drafted player from the last draft on the roster. Not sure if any other 06s have potential or can even be brought up to play in the OHL.

 

[ohloutsider]

If a light bulb came on down at the Aud and reality set in what would the value of the best players be in the market at this point in the season? I am sure MM is fielding a lot of calls at the moment. The vultures will be circling the carcass here. Mesar ,Pinelli, Schmidt, Brzustewicz , Martin, Serpa and Valade would all be mentioned. Along with Constantini who seems to be struggling with a weak defense in front of him. They certainly would have to entertain bringing some young players in via trade. There is only one drafted player from the last draft on the roster. Not sure if any other 06s have potential or can even be brought up to play in the OHL.

You just listed 8 players that other teams " might" be calling about. If you have 8 valuable players why are you in last place? Food for thought.

 

[EvenSteven]

You just listed 8 players that other teams " might" be calling about. If you have 8 valuable players why are you in last place? Food for thought.

Because they are not all valuable:

Valuable:
Pinelli. (2x2nds. 2x3rds?)
Schmidt. (2x2nds. 3rd?)
Mesar. (2x2nds. 3rd?)

Losing or lost their value-
Costantini. (Lucky to get a 2nd)

No value to a contender -
Valade. Serpa. (Not the type of OA’s in demand by contenders).

Not likely on the table to be moved - Martin. Brzustewicz.

 

[Billyjack]

sad, really sad, why is Dennis still coach. !st time in 30 years as a STH I'm not really interested in going to games. This team is going nowhere, I have my doubts they even make playoffs.

 

[EvenSteven]

sad, really sad, why is Dennis still coach. !st time in 30 years as a STH I'm not really interested in going to games. This team is going nowhere, I have my doubts they even make playoffs.

Not making the playoffs usually comes after a successful playoff run, not when you are a veteran team expected to contend.

This is the worst case scenario.

 

[ohloutsider]

Because they are not all valuable:

Valuable- Pinelli. Schmidt. Mesar.

Losing or lost their value- Costantini.

No value to a contender - Valade. Serpa.

Not likely on the table to be moved - Martin. Brzustewicz.

It does depend on what other teams need to fill out their roster so really we don't really know who is being sought but I think your list is close . I think Pinelli would be a bit of a project so I think his value may be a bit lower.

Not making the playoffs usually comes after a successful playoff run, not when you are a veteran team expected to contend.

This is the worst case scenario.

Spits are in 4th and playing reasonable well after a long playoff run. Bowler has set them up nicely. I think you need to look at your GM more than your coach. he can only coach what the GM has put on the ice for him .

 

[Tim Wallach]

Because they are not all valuable:

Valuable:
Pinelli. (2x2nds. 2x3rds?)
Schmidt. (2x2nds. 3rd?)
Mesar. (2x2nds. 3rd?)

Losing or lost their value-
Costantini. (Lucky to get a 2nd)

No value to a contender -
Valade. Serpa. (Not the type of OA’s in demand by contenders).

Not likely on the table to be moved - Martin. Brzustewicz.

I believe they are not valuable partly because they were flawed players who our scouts totally missed on and partly because the coaching group this team has have done nothing for them to develop them and help them improve.

Are Pinelli, Schmidt and Valade flawed? Heck yeah. But don’t believe for a second that they wouldn’t be full fledged stars elsewhere. With any trace of development, these are big difference makers. And teams with good coaches may see that and know they can turn them around.

 

[bobber]

You just listed 8 players that other teams " might" be calling about. If you have 8 valuable players why are you in last place? Food for thought.

You ohloutsider are good at reading between the lines. Point taken.

 

[Coaches Coroner]

You just listed 8 players that other teams " might" be calling about. If you have 8 valuable players why are you in last place? Food for thought.

If you read the thread, the organizational malaise and abysmal coaching staff are largely at fault. You trade a couple of these guys to good teams and they'll be fine. We have a bunch of parts that don't really fit, it is not a team that is built to be balanced, a couple of these guys could be what better built and coached teams are lacking and they may slot into the lineup nicely.

 

[Coaches Coroner]

I believe they are not valuable partly because they were flawed players who our scouts totally missed on and partly because the coaching group this team has have done nothing for them to develop them and help them improve.

Are Pinelli, Schmidt and Valade flawed? Heck yeah. But don’t believe for a second that they wouldn’t be full fledged stars elsewhere. With any trace of development, these are big difference makers. And teams with good coaches may see that and know they can turn them around.

It's crazy how little Pinelli and Valade has improved from day one. Obvious some improvement from Valade 1st to 2nd season, then 0 growth. Pinelli had a good first year, covid year off, comes into his 3rd year not looking great but not bad considering the lay off, then exactly the same if not worse this year (but with a better supporting cast on paper).

Dennis's quotes might as well be copy and pasted, not getting the impression he changes much or has the attention and discipline of his players.

I remember being excited because the scouts on here and twitter talked about how Windsor wanted Pinelli at 6 but he declined and came here, with Windsor taking the less highly touted Wyat Johnston...2 years later Pinelli looks like an average OHL first liner and Johnston is in the NHL after a monster season.

 

[bobber]

Players like Schmitd and Hollett should be using their size more and be a little more intimidating. When a 5'9" player (Pugliese) has to fight a giant to set an example for bigger teammates a GM should be able to see this as in issue. MM is silent. It's his team. Rangers have some big players but none that stand out physically with the exception of Andonovski. If you want character and grit, you look for it in the draft. The Ranger players drafted by NHL teams presently will be hard pressed to make a living off pro hockey unless some coach comes along and changes their playing styles. Pro teams don't take prisoners. Everyone playing in the NHL is physically stronger and bigger unless they are exceptionally talented smaller players.

 

[Ward Cornell]

sad, really sad, why is Dennis still coach. !st time in 30 years as a STH I'm not really interested in going to games. This team is going nowhere, I have my doubts they even make playoffs.

Apparently the only thing worse than our scouting for players is scouting for a coach.

 

[rangersblues]

Because they are not all valuable:

Valuable:
Pinelli. (2x2nds. 2x3rds?)
Schmidt. (2x2nds. 3rd?)
Mesar. (2x2nds. 3rd?)

Losing or lost their value-
Costantini. (Lucky to get a 2nd)

No value to a contender -
Valade. Serpa. (Not the type of OA’s in demand by contenders).

Not likely on the table to be moved - Martin. Brzustewicz.

Just my opinion but I think you over valued everyone. I don't think Pinelli gets more than a 2nd and maybe 2x3rds.. Schmidt you might get a 3rd and a conditional 2nd. Mesar you might be right except it could be a problem dealing an import. Likely be conditionals involved too. I think I'd put conditions on Pinelli too. You never know.

I'm not sure I'd deal Constantini with our present goaltending situation. I'd hate to put this all on Vandenberg.

I remember being excited because the scouts on here and twitter talked about how Windsor wanted Pinelli at 6 but he declined and came here, with Windsor taking the less highly touted Wyat Johnston...2 years later Pinelli looks like an average OHL first liner and Johnston is in the NHL after a monster season.

Realistically I'd rate Pinelli as a less than average OHL first liner. An average first liner would be doing a lot better than that especially playing with a high NHL draft pick on his line.

 

[EvenSteven]

Just my opinion but I think you over valued everyone. I don't think Pinelli gets more than a 2nd and maybe 2x3rds.. Schmidt you might get a 3rd and a conditional 2nd. Mesar you might be right except it could be a problem dealing an import. Likely be conditionals involved too. I think I'd put conditions on Pinelli too. You never know.

I'm not sure I'd deal Constantini with our present goaltending situation. I'd hate to put this all on Vandenberg.

Realistically I'd rate Pinelli as a less than average OHL first liner. An average first liner would be doing a lot better than that especially playing with a high NHL draft pick on his line.

At those returns, MM won’t move Pinelli or Schmidt. Nor would I blame him. It’s not so much their value right now as Rangers, it’s their value when they land on competitive teams.

Example: We picked up Serron Noel just a couple years ago for that return + and I’d rate Pinelli ahead of him.

 

[rangersblues]

At those returns, MM won’t move Pinelli or Schmidt. Nor would I blame him. It’s not so much their value right now as Rangers, it’s their value when they land on competitive teams.

Example: We picked up Serron Noel just a couple years ago for that return + and I’d rate Pinelli ahead of him.

I agree. There could be personal performance or team performance conditionals as well as OA conditionals.

By the way if I recall, the Noel trade wasn't turning out so much in our favour for what we paid. He wasn't exactly tearing it up in Kitchener when the plug got pulled on the season. Even so I'd rate Pinelli and Noel about even. Possibly even Noel a little ahead. Noel could be dominating at times. I've never seen that out of Pinelli. At any rate both were massive underachievers.

 

[bobber]

Brown doesn't have Serpa in his line up. Unless he missed something.

 

[EvenSteven]

I agree. There could be personal performance or team performance conditionals as well as OA conditionals.

By the way if I recall, the Noel trade wasn't turning out so much in our favour for what we paid. He wasn't exactly tearing it up in Kitchener when the plug got pulled on the season. Even so I'd rate Pinelli and Noel about even. Possibly even Noel a little ahead. Noel could be dominating at times. I've never seen that out of Pinelli. At any rate both were massive underachievers.

Noel was a shade under a point a game player for us in his short time in Kitchener. But without a postseason to judge him on, thanks to Covid, it’s tough to judge whether that acquisition panned out for us or not.

Just based on regular season alone, I would expect if Pinelli was dealt to a top contender, he would at least be a point a game player.

And to be honest, Schmidt is a top pairing D on most teams this year. If he were traded to a stacked contender, even if he was the number three, he’s worth at least a couple 2nds.