Player Discussion Kirby Dach: Welcome to Montreal part 2

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

That would make a lot of sense. He looks puffy.

If that's the case I can't really defend him or defer to the injury.

Yeah it’s a bit of a mixed bag. It’s like ‘great a reason for his bad play! He didn’t train enough!’ lol.

I thought he had enough time to train properly so that’s not great IF that’s the case.

He had depressed body language in Chicago. I could only imagine when he looked like he was putting the past behind him and ready to break out, then he gets a season ending injury in his second game. That would do a number on you.

So this is all speculation of course but if it’s true, it’s not a great situation with him but it’s not hopeless. He has to stay healthy and hopefully seek out Laine as a mentor potentially if the problem is mental health

 

[ReHabs]

Not sure if this was reported here, but Mathias Brunet stated that Dach came to camp out of shape, like really out of shape. It wasn't him speculating, he was reporting something he got from a source within the organization. Now we all saw that does not have the same skating speed as before and that it could (should) be link to the injury, but him not being in shape wont help him perform either.

So... lots of work for Dach ahead.

To note: his surgery was completed October 31st 2023.

A healing knee shouldn’t prevent a professional athlete from maintaining their cardio or at the very least eating properly.

What kind of team culture and development are we running here?

It's just as, if not more likely that the hesitation you are seeing as afraid to get hurt is actually afraid to make a mistake. Regardless, hesitation at the NHL level is a death sentence, the game is just too fast, and more often then not is just going to lead to the very thing you are afraid of happening.

He didn’t hesitate to eat all that cake

I no longer wonder why his post-injury season with CHI was bad enough for them to cut him loose immediately after.

We had Shea Weber and Carey Price playing through injuries. Under this new regime with have Kirby Dach coming back from injury out of shape and overweight.

 

[Andrei79]

To note: his surgery was completed October 31st 2023.

A healing knee shouldn’t prevent a professional athlete from maintaining their cardio or at the very least eating properly.

What kind of team culture and development are we running here?


He didn’t hesitate to eat all that cake

I no longer wonder why his post-injury season with CHI was bad enough for them to cut him loose immediately after.

We had Shea Weber and Carey Price playing through injuries. Under this new regime with have Kirby Dach coming back from injury out of shape and overweight.

Just wondering though, why is Brunet a source for you ? Aren't these journalists speculating all full of shit according to you and hearsay at best ? Or is just regarding Michkov ?

 

[Artaud]

I don’t think it was a whiff on the Dach trade. He clearly showed he was worth trading for. You can’t predict injuries.

Process vs. results. It was not a stupid swing to take, but the result is looking like a whiff.

Besides, Dach did come with a thick injury file, which was surely a factor in Chicago's decision to give up on him. Of course, the knee injury is unrelated to his previous ones and you can call it bad luck. A less optimistic analyst would argue that some bodies are generally more fragile, while others can take hits like Gumby. Fantasy football players know that some guys just break more often.

I also don't necessarily agree he "clearly showed he was worth trading for". Much is made of his 2023 season, and while I agree he was good, it's not like he was dominating. His best stretch came next to Suzuki. He never really was in the driver seat of a successful line for a meaning stretch. His production was not special for a 22 year old, in fact he never in his life produced at a clip that would predict stardom. I don't understand what he showed that convinced this forum he is a future stud. A lot of people here claimed he was bound to be a PPG+ player.

Maybe Dach is bad because of injuries.... Or, he just never had that dawg in him, didn't take his rehab seriously and came to camp with a muffin top. I believe the majority of players in the NHL are skilled enough to be impact players and what separates the studs from the scrubs is between the ears. For every Tage Thompson, there's a dozen Joel Armia.

Dach is playing like a guy who doesn't have the heart to be what this fanbase thinks he is. He's not a player I want to root for.

 

[ReHabs]

Just wondering though, why is Brunet a source for you ? Aren't these journalists speculating all full of shit according to you and hearsay at best ? Or is just regarding Michkov ?

If it’s hearsay, it’s hearsay.

Reporting that a player came to camp out of shape is 1) easily refutable (thus local journos do not have incentive to lie about it) and 2) validates how we’ve seen Dach look and 3) reinforces why he’s played so badly this year so far.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Process vs. results. It was not a stupid swing to take, but the result is looking like a whiff.

If you trade a 4th rounder for Sidney Crosby and he gets hit by a bus, is it a whiff?

I mean, sure the trade might not work out but I wouldn’t fault the GM for making that deal.

Besides, Dach did come with a thick injury file, which was surely a factor in Chicago's decision to give up on him. Of course, the knee injury is unrelated to his previous ones and you can call it bad luck. A less optimistic analyst would argue that some bodies are generally more fragile, while others can take hits like Gumby. Fantasy football players know that some guys just break more often.

He did. But the team did its homework and determined the wrist wasn’t something to be worried about. And so far it looks like they were right about that.

You can’t predict an injury. It can happen to any player.

I also don't necessarily agree he "clearly showed he was worth trading for". Much is made of his 2023 season, and while I agree he was good, it's not like he was dominating. His best stretch came next to Suzuki. He never really was in the driver seat of a successful line for a meaning stretch. His production was not special for a 22 year old, in fact he never in his life produced at a clip that would predict stardom. I don't understand what he showed that convinced this forum he is a future stud. A lot of people here claimed he was bound to be a PPG+ player.

He was really good and his preseason last year was terrific. We were stoked to see him and then he gets hurt in game one…

Maybe Dach is bad because of injuries.... Or, he just never had that dawg in him, didn't take his rehab seriously and came to camp with a muffin top. I believe the majority of players in the NHL are skilled enough to be impact players and what separates the studs from the scrubs is between the ears. For every Tage Thompson, there's a dozen Joel Armia.

Dach is playing like a guy who doesn't have the heart to be what this fanbase thinks he is. He's not a player I want to root for.

He looks bad I agree. But lots of players look bad after a long layoff. Can’t really tell how it’s going to go.

I still have faith in him but I agree that he’s not the sure thing I thought he was now. We’ll have to wait and see.

 

[Kennedys]

3 assists in his last 17 games. One game with 2 assists in that span.

 

[Tyson]

Evidently Dach was healthy enough to play at the end of last season but the surgeon made sure that did not happen. This means he was healthy enough to skate all summer, train like a mad man. If he came to camp out of shape...that's not good.

 

[JianYang]

Not a medical professional, but from what I read online it's rare for a hockey player to tear the ACL. Earlier in this thread I found a few examples of players who did and it took ~1 season to recover and ~1 season to get back to normal, pre-injury level of play.

So while I'm disappointed this year I'm going to stay the course and see what happens second half of the season and then next year. I think Kirby Dach is the player we saw end of his first year here + preseason last year.

A lot of the challenges he's facing now weren't question marks before his injury so i don't think it's a leap based on the case history and what were seeing on the ice that he's still recovering in some way from the injury and time off.

I'm no medical professional either. All I know is torn acl means you are done for a very long time.

But what I find puzzling is that I remember Josh gorges requiring acl surgery as a 26 year old but he also mentioned that he was playing with the acl tear since junior.... anyways, I'll leave that to the professionals.

 

[JianYang]

Yeah, it's insane the amount of people who aren't willing to give Dach the year to get his groove back.

Then again ... it was 3 months ago that a massive amount of people here thought we should waive Jake Evans.

The same people say he has had 2 good games under his belt or reference his 38 points in season 1.

I mean, I don't know where to start with the 2 good games argument. That is flat out false.

And the point total in year one needs to be contextualized as well. The way he controlled the puck, and saw the ice would only show up in the goals and assists columns when he had other guys to play with.

 

[Victoire HuGo]

I'd be curious to see the weights he had this year at training camp vs previous years. Obviously won't tell full story but it'd be a start

 

[austin316]

It’s time to cut our losses with both Dach and Newhook. The experiments have failed and it’s time for us to look elsewhere.

 

[The Last Red]

It’s time to cut our losses with both Dach and Newhook. The experiments have failed and it’s time for us to look elsewhere.

The Buffalo Sabres could have taken that approach with Tage Thompson (I’m referring to Dach here) years ago. 6’4” centers with skill don’t grow on trees. More patience needed with Dach given the context. Newhook, I don’t care either way because with Demidov coming next year, Newhook will be a 3rd liner. Much easier to replace than a second line center, obviously.

 

[Rapala]

The Buffalo Sabres could have taken that approach with Tage Thompson (I’m referring to Dach here) years ago. 6’4” centers with skill don’t grow on trees. More patience needed with Dach given the context. Newhook, I don’t care either way because with Demidov coming next year, Newhook will be a 3rd liner. Much easier to replace than a second line center, obviously.

Thompson has missed significant time since turning Pro as we all know but I can't recall if he's every had knee surgery.

 

[The Last Red]

Thompson has missed significant time since turning Pro as we all know but I can't recall if he's every had knee surgery.

Don’t know and I don’t think Dach will ever become the scorer Tage is but still . . . 6’4” centers with skill. Some patience, please.

 

[The Great Weal]

Dach's trainer has a solid case of being the worst personal trainer of all time.

 

[Trabdy2]

I don't think he's a top 6 player. I can see him turning into a good 3rd liner, but he'll need to refocus his game and leverage his physical attributes more.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

It’s time to cut our losses with both Dach and Newhook. The experiments have failed and it’s time for us to look elsewhere.

Thankfully you do not have a say in the matter.

Newhook will be a fine 3rd liner playing along side Beck imo and Dach has shown far more good than bad during his time in Montreal. I am not sure what his health status truly is but he looks nothing like the player that we had previously watched who was steadily progressing. Did he develop a dependency issue while he was off? Is his body just not right? Did seeing the game from a different perspective just confuse him as he is not an intellectual by any stretch of the imagination>

I don't know what the issue is but I do know that throwing these two in the trash bin would be an egregious error in judgement at this point in time.

How about you continue with the hot takes just to get it out of your system as perhaps there is a therapeutic element that you require, but............just erase it before sharing it on the board

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Don’t know and I don’t think Dach will ever become the scorer Tage is but still . . . 6’4” centers with skill. Some patience, please.

I agree we have to show patience. But I’m so disappointed in how this season has gone. One thing to be rusty but he looks nothing like the player he was.

We have no choice but to hang in there but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be looking for another 2nd line center. Might as well have more than we need. I think Dach will come back but we can’t be certain of this and elite far too important a role to screw around with.

So sure, nurse him back. Hope he finds his way… but start the search.

 

[Habssince89]

I agree we have to show patience. But I’m so disappointed in how this season has gone. One thing to be rusty but he looks nothing like the player he was.

We have no choice but to hang in there but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be looking for another 2nd line center. Might as well have more than we need.

I think Dach will come back but we can’t be certain of this and elite far too important a role to screw around with.

So sure, nurse him back. Hope he finds his way… but start the search.

Exactly don't wait for Dach, but don't throw him away either.

 

[HuGort]

Dach has 1 goal in 27 games and league plus/minus at -21. While playing top 6 minutes. Shows no effort out there

 

[HabbyGuy]

MSL can only send messages to Slaf, Dach and Xhekaj. If Matheson or Dvorak cost us entire games, rather than just small mistakes, they get PP1, 5-on-3 and 3-on-3 time.

TBF Slaf, Dach, and Xhekaj are identified as being young important pieces for this team going forward, the other two, not so much. Their habits are more important to him, hence the messages.....

Both DVO and Matheson are already what they are, unfotunately for Marty he still needs some veteran help at this juncture, and Matheson despite his warts is still very helpful to this squad.

 

[Scriptor]

Thankfully you do not have a say in the matter.

Newhook will be a fine 3rd liner playing along side Beck imo and Dach has shown far more good than bad during his time in Montreal. I am not sure what his health status truly is but he looks nothing like the player that we had previously watched who was steadily progressing. Did he develop a dependency issue while he was off? Is his body just not right? Did seeing the game from a different perspective just confuse him as he is not an intellectual by any stretch of the imagination>

I don't know what the issue is but I do know that throwing these two in the trash bin would be an egregious error in judgement at this point in time.

How about you continue with the hot takes just to get it out of your system as perhaps there is a therapeutic element that you require, but............just erase it before sharing it on the board

Did he develop a dependency issue while he was off? Is his body just not right? Did seeing the game from a different perspective just confuse him as he is not an intellectual by any stretch of the imagination.

These hot takes are mind-blowing and pulled out of the air with zero justification, but I agree with your statement that, "he looks nothing like the player that we had previously watched who was steadily progressing."

That means that there was already signs of Dach playing as an impactful top-6 player, whether that was on the wing with Caufield and Suzuki (what had turned his play around, initially, in Montreal, or at C with a bunch of Mutts afterwards.

Dach had shifts in the O-zone where he dominated the opponent, winning physical battles along the boards and pulling away with the puck with enough time toffee wingers as they barrelled towards the opposing net.

Clearly, he lacks confidence in those situations this year and it goes beyond timing. His poor play his lead by constant hesitation in puck battles or when he has the ability tout into higher density regions with the puck his stick.

Winning puck battles necessitates planting your weight on your legs and that means stress on your knee. IMO, Dach is afraid to put his knee to the test at the highest levels?

The resulting split second hesitation with the puck on his stick, avoidance of contact and resulting peripheral play lead to poor performances with little impact.

He needs to buckle down and take chances with his knee. Either he gets hurt because his knee will never be able to handle the wear and tear of being a dominant pivot/forward, or he grows more and more confident that he can take on the work load as he plays without injury.

 

[Scriptor]

I agree we have to show patience. But I’m so disappointed in how this season has gone. One thing to be rusty but he looks nothing like the player he was.

We have no choice but to hang in there but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be looking for another 2nd line center. Might as well have more than we need. I think Dach will come back but we can’t be certain of this and elite far too important a role to screw around with.

So sure, nurse him back. Hope he finds his way… but start the search.

You never have too many potential top-6 pivots and having a dirty of those just means more injury protection.

Cs are traditionally more easily converted to the wing than the other way around and having two Cs on the same line makes it easier to defend on turnovers that end up putting pressure in our own zone because a winger can organically shift towards taking on the trailing C's defensive assignments.

I agree that pursuing/targeting/hunting down more top-6 Centers, at this point -- but at any point, really -- is the way to go. If nothing else, having more than two top-6 Cs will give you welcome depth offensively, whether that be on the ice with your top-9, or as munitions for a trade that can address other issues in the lineup?

From what already is in the system, do Beck or Hage - maybe Kapanen -- truly have upside as 2nd line Cs? Beck might get a chance to showcase that should Dach continue to falter in the role of 2nd line C. The timing for an audition in a more offensive, two-way role would be more favourable for Beck than for Hage, who is a little longer ways off from the Montreal roster, IMO.

Even then, both could get bypassed by another C, depending on our fortunes at the 2025 draft, with both Hagens and Misa slotted to go in the top-4, if not earlier?

Dach could always end up as the team's 3rd line C, or as a third line winger?

Considering the skillset he has already displayed in the past, let's hope, for the fans and the player alike, that he returns to form at some point, even if that means only next season and requires Dach to fight it out with other talent at C for the 2nd line pivot role.

 

[Rapala]

3 assists in his last 17 games. One game with 2 assists in that span.

Yeah I expected his play making to be much much better than that even with reduced mobility.
Laine checks in with equal mobility at best and is clearly far more intelligent with his touches everywhere on the ice.

I think his line is showing signs of breaking out when they are at the right end of the rink.
Despite losing to Washington they were one of the lines that allowed us to zone the Caps for three consecutive shifts.
Seriously I can't recall the last time that has happened against a good team.