I know the OHL. The issue with Saginaw is not only are they not a contender but they are a 10th place team in the Western Conference. They will be limited in the trades they will be able to make because while they have draft picks they don’t have the players to be able to compete with some of the other teams that have the players teams will want. For example they likely don’t have the player Peterborough will want for Owen Beck. Other teams do. They also may have to overpay in some trades because teams know they have to make trades because they are Memorial Cup hosts. In regards to Oshawa. They played the Petes tonight and Peterborough by far is the better team.
Kingston Frontenacs 2023-24 Season Thread (Part One)
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frontsfan67
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Maybe! But they’re still not the best team in the league as I’ve said. Early season results don’t mean much. most teams have players away at camps for the first little bit. I don’t believe Mississauga was affected by that at all kingston was missing both ludwinski and burns for some time along with injuries and a shit coach in Caputi. Pretty sure I saw somewhere London last year started 1-4 or 1-5 and ended up winning the west and almost the whole ohl. It’s not where you start, it’s where you finish.
frontsfan67
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I think you’re not understanding what I’m saying. I have said a couple times by the trade deadline. That’s 2 months away. It’s very early into the season right now.
Also I don’t see Saginaw going for beck. I see them going for divinctiis who is the best goalie in the league and Nelson who is having a slow start to the season but make no mistake he’s the best d man in the O’ this season. They’ll go after those two in a package deal I can almost guarantee. They need them more than any other team to beef up goaltending to carry them for playoffs and the m cup. A hot goalie can win you a playoff series, or in this case the whole memorial cup, there’s only about 4 or 5 games they play anyways. And they need better defence too. And forwards. Trust me they’re far from done. You’ll see easily 2 or 3 BIG trades coming there this season.
Also with your Pete’s when they make all the trades that they obviously will make being the ohl champs- teams always let go of all assets they have and trade them to the highest bidder. You guys will get some fairly good pieces back and obviously draft picks but make no mistake after you trade guys like beck, Mayer, Lockhart, probably McCoy, probably smith too. You will not be anywhere near the level you guys are now. You’ll probably fall between 5-7th place, somewhere around there depending on how early you guys unload.
I know you don’t think it’s gonna happen. But mark my words on this you’ll be trading more than just beck lol. The guys I mentioned won’t be back next year and If Pete’s management has any sort of brain cells and we know they do. They’ll want to get as much out of this sell as they can to help them with the future.
With my Oshawa comment it’s for when all these teams, the north bays, the Pete’s, these kind of teams trade their players because they went for it last year. They’ll inevitably fall in the standings. Some may take a step back and some may plummet but they won’t be the same losing huge pieces of their team.
Look at kingston last year. 4th in the conference right around this time last year. Arcuri 23 goals in 20 games, and hache was looking good too but got traded a bit later, and wright never played for us since he was sent back so late. But we went from 4th in the standings with those guys to 9th out of the playoffs without them and a second half of the season to forget. And in my opinion Beck, Mayer, McCoy, Smith, Lockhart would be more of a loss than just Arcuri and Hache (wright didn’t even play)
I’m not sure how you can discount their depth on offence. IMO, that is a bigger strength than goaltending. They have the ability to put their 4th overall pick on the 4th line (and send down their second rounder) and have three lines where every player has the potential (and expectation) to put up PPG numbers.
In terms of high end forwards, most high end forwards in junior generally are offensive first players. They usually don’t develop that game until the pro levels. The Fronts have three top five picks that are 18 and 19, one of which was even picked right before Barlow. They definitely have the pedigree. They just need to play to their potential and have a coach actually develop them and force them to give that effort you describe.
Logosarejusttargets
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While in theory what you are saying is accurate - I think we've seen a lot of players play beneath their potential. (Soto, Outwater, even Miedema to some degree). Now that I think more, not really sure if Outwater is underperforming - perhaps he was overvalued in his draft year and will not live up to that- he is so slight/frail and is easily pushed off the puck. I think Mann needs some time to try and correct some of these things, but there are players that have played regular shifts that don't help in the offense category that perhaps need to be shifted (i.e Hemstrom should be 3/4 line and focus on PK, Callans if they are going to dress him should be 4th line and used sparingly in PK) Hemstrom can motor, but his body moves faster than his brain half the time, and he rarely finishes.
Wow, you're predicting a lot of change in the West. Bookmarking this to come back to on January 10th.
You’re right. This team has big Calgary flames vibes, the only thing they have going for them is how weak the east is. Quite frankly I don’t see what about this team makes people think they’re a contender for a championship next year, unless the new coach is some kind of magician I just don’t see it.
Logosarejusttargets
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I can understand that mindset -- but I think from a skill level there are a lot of very good players. I honestly think the deployment of the players in various scenarios and situations has hurt. Things Caputi did like playing the same 5 -6 forwards for 50-60% of the game, including the last 10 mins of the 3rd in a close game often led to fatigue which creates stupid mistakes. Playing guys in PP roles when they simply don't fit. Changing the guys lines after one or two shifts together - every freaking game. Individually these seem like small things, but they all add up and create moments in games or stretches of games that lead to letdowns, breakdowns, dumb mistakes, bad penalties. I think we see what Mann can do with this current group over the month. They play 11 times in November - many of them are home games or short road games - so it's probably a good sampling that should reveal how DEC-MAR will go.
I agree that almost all of the forwards have played below expectations. I would say maybe only Thibodeau and possibly Battaglia have met them based on where they were picked. Is that because of poor drafting or because of poor development, or both? I think we all seem to agree that poor development was an issue so I guess what we are debating is whether it was also poor selections where we took the players (or equivalently gave up high pieces in trades).
We have had a crazy amount of high picks to build this offence. There is no reason why this team shouldn’t have one of the top offences in the league had the right players been chosen and developed. I’m of the belief that for the most part the right players were chosen, but I may prove to be corrected (and end up joining others on here who believe we did not make the right picks.
I do agree on Outwater. I’m not sure what is going on there. Hopefully Mann can fix it, but we may have overvalued there, big time.
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New coach hopefully will bring new life, but there is zero question we overvalued, overpaid and overrated Outwater
DraftEligibleOHL
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Tonight marks 3000 games called for Fronts radio man Jim Gilchrist
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Frontenacs radio voice Jim Gilchrist calls 3,000th game - Ontario Hockey League
Long-time Kingston Frontenacs radio play-by-play voice Jim Gilchrist will call his 3,000th OHL contest on Friday night.
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The 2005 age Covid draft was a nightmare and a crapshoot for most all teams. The kids didn't even play that year. That's how you end up with Miedema and Soto going in top 5 ahead of a Colby Barlow and Outwater going #11. In a re-draft he might be lucky to go in the third round
How would Barlow, Lardis, Bonk, Akey, Cowan, etc look in Black and Gold. that's just to name a few of the missed out ons!
McGowan was prob the best value pick by Kingston going in the 10th round. Vaccari and Thibodeau in 4th was good as well. I haven't looked close at other riosters but Kingston has to have the most 2005 age kids of any team and e3specially in terms of draft postion. That in theory should bode well for next year if Mann can get the best out of them. Start by demanding effort out of those fwds that are "supposed" to be top forwards.
11 2005s on this current roster - is there any other team even close? Just guessing not.
Miedema - 1st #4
Soto - 1st #5
Outwater - 1st #11 ????
Brooks -2nd #34 (No longer on roster)
Burns -2nd #35
Uens -3rd #42
Vacarri -4th #61
Thibodeau - 4th #75
Schneider - 5th #94
Cavallin -7th #124
McGowan -10th #164
Miedema (WSR), Outwater (NB), and Uens (OS) were not drafted by Kingston.
Oops. Forgot to add two 05s that could also be huge for next year....
Chromiak 1st #8 in import draft
Pieneimini (sp?) 1st #10 in import draft (long shot)
frontsfan67
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Feel free to do so. 2 months is a long time in jr hockey with all the big trades every year
frontsfan67
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Honest question. Do you watch fronts games or do you just comment? Hemstrom when healthy has been one of the best fronts this year. Good 2 way game, PPG, Works hard every game, PK, PP. that’s not a 3/4th line player lol that’s a top line/top 2 line player.
I agree. However last year he was much more noticeable probably due to his draft year. This year in particular he hasn’t had anywhere near the drive he had last year.
Good point on the COVID draft. Though Barlow was rated way ahead of Soto and I remember watching (or listening) to that draft and expecting them to call Barlow and they selected Soto (whom I had to look up as he wasn’t slated in the top 10-15).
The Fronts did it to themselves as Barlow fell into their lap at 5 and they went off the board with Soto, since Miedema (their original target) was gone. Everyone was shocked at the time and it looks just as bad today.
They also hit on Burns, which is impressive since they seem to have trouble selected good Dmen historically.
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beastintheeast
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The question that has to be answered is are they going to play for Mann? It seems like a silly question but these guys have made their beds to a certain point. They have gotten used to the Caputi lack of discipline and for the most part played their own games.
Again I look at Calgary as an example the flames have a lot of talent on that team on paper but it is not producing. Everyone said it was Sutter that was the problem well so far the Flames are making Sutter look good.
Also, the ownership of this team is interesting and could have an effect. Remember the last time they got a real AHL NHL coach the players did not play for him, and management supported the players. Hopefully, Cooper is not Mav and Springer stays out of it. Only time will tell.
I still think there is a trade coming and while it might surprise some it might actually be Thidideaux if the father issue is not resolved.
As to drafting it is not just taking the best player it is looking down the line at what position is needed. Using Ottawa only as a template not saying it is right or wrong it used to be that you drafted the defence one year and then drafted forwards the next.
Mann needs to get involved with he scouting but first, before he talks about trades he needs to see who is going to lay and who should go home.
I agree with you. I was wondering how much damage has already been done and whether Mann can undo it for everyone. My guess is the trades occur for those that can’t be revived under Mann. It will take some time to discover who those will be. Hopefully, not a lot but we will see.
beastintheeast
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Surprisingly, it will not take long at all. I think Mann will already know who he needs to get traded and who is willing to play his style. There is more than players on the block. Longo is going to be under the view of Cooper and Mann as to whether he can coach under Manns style.
frontsfan67
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Beast the last couple of games they’ve been a different team I find. They’ve had good results. However one thing I’ll say is the teams they’ve played the last 3 games are weaker compared to the ones they were playing beforehand. And now everyone is healthy.
Now I said this before and I’ll say it again. The past 2 games don’t mean anything we can’t see the mann effect yet as he’s serving the suspension stupid callens took. It’s good they won tonight. And good they had a close one with missy. (Who they should’ve beat but a third period collapse happened) however mann wasn’t on the bench for that.
Really tomorrow against Guelph it’ll be his second game coaching for the team. Guelph blew us out of the water a few weeks ago with Caputi. Let’s see how the effort changes this time with Mann. Important to note Guelph has 2 good goalies, and good defence (although cam Allen I believe is still out) and so is Matt poitras. So this isn’t Guelph at their full power.
Fronts need to win though tomorrow. They do that and they’re 3-1 in the Mann era (should be 4-0 though, again Mississauga) pretty good considering beforehand with Caputi we only had 3 wins total. Also they’ll only be 1 game back of 0.500
It’ll be interesting to see how the lines are with Mann back, and if callens plays after causing the coach to be out 2 games. I predict he sits the next 3 games lol. Needs to prove a point especially doing something like that manns first night as a coach here and you’re an OA 4th line forward.
beastintheeast
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FF you foerget one thing. The coach still runs the practices and sets the lineup and the lines. The only thing he does not do is sit behind the bench or go into the dressing room during the game.
Time will tell whether there are any issues. The attitude is shown more in practice than in a game.
Let's see what happens the player I am watching is Thibideaux if daddy is still telling him what to do.
Thibideau continues to frustrate me. Scores a beautiful goal because Miedema makes a beautiful play to get the puck over on a two on one. On the exact same play only with Thibideau with the puck and Miedema wide open, Thibideau takes a bad angle shot. I said before Ludwinki won’t like him on the same line, well he was moved last night to play with Miedema, same turn overs, same selfish shots.
On another note, much better passing game from the team, every line played well. Chromiak great first pass defencemen, Vaccari played well again. Battaglia, Ludswinki and Soto had some chemistry. Savard, Poole and Heyes, great forecheck game, Cavelin with a couple of good chances. Face offs were excellent, both Poole and Outwater over 70%, and Ludwinski at 50%.
Couple guys on d need to play better, Holmes needs to play with a bit more heart around his net, Burns has to move the puck quicker before he gets in trouble.
Beast is correct, Mann is not sitting on the sidelines, he’s managing the game before it even starts With input between periods.
As for the Barlow comments, I have heard from a very reliable source that the Kingston scouts had Barlow as the pick and at the last minute McFarland went rogue and made his own pick with Soto which gave Owen Sound Barlow. McFarland did more damage to this team than anyone realizes. He accepted both the head coach and GM position only to walk away weeks before the season starts with a team built to make a run. That forces Kingston to promote Caputi at the last minute when he wasn’t ready as a head coach and we know how the playoffs turned out. Series lost because of coaching.
McFarland only draft was suspect, takes several small players that changes the culture of the team. No offence to them but 145 pound players have a hard time in this league, he took Soto instead of Barlow, Brooks who’s not playing etc. Gets his brother on the bench who coaches the d, with no experience teaching defencemen as he was a skilled forward…..thank god the McFarland era is over.
On another note, much better passing game from the team, every line played well. Chromiak great first pass defencemen, Vaccari played well again. Battaglia, Ludswinki and Soto had some chemistry. Savard, Poole and Heyes, great forecheck game, Cavelin with a couple of good chances. Face offs were excellent, both Poole and Outwater over 70%, and Ludwinski at 50%.
Couple guys on d need to play better, Holmes needs to play with a bit more heart around his net, Burns has to move the puck quicker before he gets in trouble.
Beast is correct, Mann is not sitting on the sidelines, he’s managing the game before it even starts With input between periods.
As for the Barlow comments, I have heard from a very reliable source that the Kingston scouts had Barlow as the pick and at the last minute McFarland went rogue and made his own pick with Soto which gave Owen Sound Barlow. McFarland did more damage to this team than anyone realizes. He accepted both the head coach and GM position only to walk away weeks before the season starts with a team built to make a run. That forces Kingston to promote Caputi at the last minute when he wasn’t ready as a head coach and we know how the playoffs turned out. Series lost because of coaching.
McFarland only draft was suspect, takes several small players that changes the culture of the team. No offence to them but 145 pound players have a hard time in this league, he took Soto instead of Barlow, Brooks who’s not playing etc. Gets his brother on the bench who coaches the d, with no experience teaching defencemen as he was a skilled forward…..thank god the McFarland era is over.
I really doubt Kingston ever had Barlow as the pick. More likely, they were so certain that Meidema was the pick that they needed a time-out (at #5!) to find out if Rehkopf would report. After that, there would have been very little time to choose between the best Oakville Rangers available; Lardis, Misa, Outwater, or Soto.
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