KHL Expansion Part VIII

[Barclay Donaldson]

I have never heard about serious negotiations with a German side before 2014.

For obvious reasons, no serious negotiations were in 2014-2016 or 2017.

Since 2018 we have heard about negotiations with the German side. Tripcke & especially Reindl are very active from the German side.

If you are asking about DEB & KHL joint project, go to the KHL website or statements of the KHL´s officials in media. I will help you, the statement was done just a month ago.

All the problem is that you believe fake-news, you do not listen to the KHL President or other officials of the league. Otherwise, you could not be surprised by the German negotiations.

I will tell you that there is no official statement on how, when & where the KHL will expand to Germany. The league will announce all the details when all negotiations are done & documents signed by both sides.

KHL German teams have been heavily linked going back to 2008: Verlassen die Eisbären die DEL? and Эксклюзив. Александр Медведев: я как Лукашенко - Прессбол and I can provide more if you want them. Now you have heard of it.

For 2018, there were heavy negotiations, but notice how when every single group that was linked stopped being linked once finances were brought up? And that's not with just Germany. Huttwil, Gdansk, Milano, Karlovy this happened. "Heavy links" doesn't mean it is happening. In fact, when there are so many of them, it means that people aren't biting. New people appear, learn, then disappear. If there's sustained interest for over a year and it isn't the same people, something is wrong. And we all know, maybe not you but people who aren't blindly loyal to the Bear, why no one wants to join.

I do not believe fake news. To date, I have never believed a single thing you have wrote. At least not without researching it further.

KHL President guaranteed a European division. He also planned, maybe not guaranteed but planned, a 60 team league by 2020. A league that could have competed with the NHL. Now with Slovan gone, he has truly failed in every aspect of running the league. I wanted to believe him and I wanted it to happen, but how they went about creating it showed me they have no idea what they are doing. The only intelligent thing Medvedev has done was get rid of the weak teams like Yugra and Lada who were both reliant on over 75% of their revenues coming from government-owned corporations.

No European person wants to join. Look at the dead corpses of teams: Poprad, Praha, Medvescak, Slovan. Look at the failed attempts. There's too many to count.

 

[vorky]

Hey, I am interested in serious discussion with facts. But, unfortunately, such a discussion with you is impossible because your facts are wrong. When your facts are correct, we can go on with the discussion.

your wrong facts

The only intelligent thing Medvedev has done was get rid of the weak teams like Yugra and Lada who were both reliant on over 75% of their revenues coming from government-owned corporations.

And it is not the first time when your facts are wrong. I believe you will admit that a serious discussion with wrong facts is impossible from principle.

 

[Jussi]

I'm starting to think he probably thought Kurri was going to stay as 100% owner of Jokerit as well or that their funding comes completely from Finland.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Hey, I am interested in serious discussion with facts. But, unfortunately, such a discussion with you is impossible because your facts are wrong. When your facts are correct, we can go on with the discussion.

your wrong facts


And it is not the first time when your facts are wrong. I believe you will admit that a serious discussion with wrong facts is impossible from principle.

I deal only in facts: KHL excludes Lada Togliatti and Yugra Khanty-Mansiysk - Eurohockey.com

I always back up what I say. Unlike you. No proof of KHL people interested in France, Germany, or anywhere else you mention except Tashkent and Dubai. You even claimed KHL had highest attendance in Europe despite me providing 4 sources showing the opposite, and it being common knowledge has well. Now you openly admit it. You frequently make up things here. I back up what I say every time. Like with the KHL trying to go into Germany as of 2008, something you had never heard of. You’re not the only one with knowledge of European hockey. Except other people use rational thoughts rather than obscene, unproven, and outlandish claims. You probably think the KHL will be on the moon in 2050.

 

[Jussi]

For someone relying on facts, it would help if you didn't create those facts on hearsay and vague pr statements. For example, doing some research on Norilsk Nickel Harjavalta's parent company and owners would have helped with regards to Jokerit before putting that piece on your site.

 

[vorky]

@Barclay Donaldson

I have honestly tried to understand you. So sorry, if I do not get you correctly.

From my perspective is that you do not read statements in European press on how a German etc club is so interesting in joining the KHL. Yes, the European press does not cover it. And if they do, they pick up a club who is not interested in the KHL to have proof. Very easy journalism.

If you read the Russian press, you immediately find statements from Reindl and Tardiff. To sum it up for you, both want to bring the KHL to their country.

As you know, the KHL needs approval from national hockey federation to launch a club in a particular country. So, approval from Reindl & Tardiff.

The KHL needs to prepare everything to work on 100%, especially financing. Therefore they do not need to hurry up with European expansion. They need guarantees. And you know that such negotiations do not take a month.

 

[Jussi]

From my perspective is that you do not read statements in European press on how a German etc club is so interesting in joining the KHL. Yes, the European press does not cover it.

This seems like a paradox or you just contradicted yourself. If there's no statements from clubs in European press, how are people supposed to read them?

The KHL needs to prepare everything to work on 100%, especially financing. Therefore they do not need to hurry up with European expansion. They need guarantees. And you know that such negotiations do not take a month.

Translation: They're looking for a company with Russian ownership/ties to a Russian, that is capable of funding money for a club via "sponsorship" without violating sanctions (just like with Jokerit). Morals, yay!

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

@Barclay Donaldson

I have honestly tried to understand you. So sorry, if I do not get you correctly.

From my perspective is that you do not read statements in European press on how a German etc club is so interesting in joining the KHL. Yes, the European press does not cover it. And if they do, they pick up a club who is not interested in the KHL to have proof. Very easy journalism.

If you read the Russian press, you immediately find statements from Reindl and Tardiff. To sum it up for you, both want to bring the KHL to their country.

As you know, the KHL needs approval from national hockey federation to launch a club in a particular country. So, approval from Reindl & Tardiff.

The KHL needs to prepare everything to work on 100%, especially financing. Therefore they do not need to hurry up with European expansion. They need guarantees. And you know that such negotiations do not take a month.

Translate the German page I linked to whatever language you speak. It is completely correct and has been accurate despite being 11 years old.

The European news has all been correct so far. The Russian media has been predicting teams in Europe and the Asia East for a long time, and has incorrectly predicted other things, much like you have. The European news has been more accurate than the Russian news. I will keep reading European news. And you can keep reading whatever source told you KHL has highest attendance in Europe until you oddly except it as fact and deny ever supporting the other viewpoint.

 

[vorky]

@Barclay Donaldson

Let me allow to disagree with your position on media. I study all media - European & Russian, you study just European while ignoring the Russian. That is not a correct approach to the issue.

I remind you once again. You told the DEL is 2nd attended league in Europe & the KHL is 3rd for 2018-19. I just pointed out that your description is not true, because the KHL was better-attended than DEL last season. I do hope you have all data & you studied them before writing at this forum. So, I will ask you to provide a reliable source with data where is written "the DEL is 2nd attended league, the KHL is 3rd attended league in Europe for 2018-19" to support your claims.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

@Barclay Donaldson

Let me allow to disagree with your position on media. I study all media - European & Russian, you study just European while ignoring the Russian. That is not a correct approach to the issue.

I remind you once again. You told the DEL is 2nd attended league in Europe & the KHL is 3rd for 2018-19. I just pointed out that your description is not true, because the KHL was better-attended than DEL last season. I do hope you have all data & you studied them before writing at this forum. So, I will ask you to provide a reliable source with data where is written "the DEL is 2nd attended league, the KHL is 3rd attended league in Europe for 2018-19" to support your claims.

Russian media isn’t correct often. European media is correct nearly every time. They were correct on the failure of European expansion and the disinterest in markets, as well as the failure to get new ones. Accept that.

As for the DEL statement, we’ve been over this. It was in the middle of last season and the current numbers weren’t out yet. Because the season wasn’t even over. My claim was from the 2017-18 season, where the DEL was the second highest league. They were obviously displaced. Everyone else agreed with me and you went on a crusade. I don’t make false claims, I provide evidence. Where’s this Swedish, Finnish, and extended Asia East expansion you’ve been guaranteeing for years? You’ve made baseless claims for years. Everyone on here supports up their claims except you.

 

[lindelof]

& negotiations are with other countries. Of course, the KHL may expand to Asia as well (rumours about Japan).

Care to elaborate on this?
Which city and will it be one the teams from the current league in Japan or will it be a Kunlun-sloution?

I think that expansion in Japan (& South Korea) is an obvious next step and one that I feel should already been in place. Especially South Korea prior to the 2018 Olympics.

 

[vorky]

Care to elaborate on this?
Which city and will it be one the teams from the current league in Japan or will it be a Kunlun-sloution?

I think that expansion in Japan (& South Korea) is an obvious next step and one that I feel should already been in place. Especially South Korea prior to the 2018 Olympics.

I do not know about Japanese city. Of course, one likely option is Kunlun-model, so a brand new club. Chernyshenko has said a few times that negotiations with Japanese are ongoing, but no other details. Of course, another option may be that a club will join Japanese or Asian league at first & after a year or so will apply to the KHL. But these two teams (Japanese/Asian league vs KHL) would have just a few things in common - leadership, a few Japanese players, perhaps a name or a venue. If you remember Donbass Donetsk, it was a very similar case, they played in VHL & later joined the KHL.

I have never heard anything serious about South Korea.

There is a rumour about 2nd Chinese club, however, no details are available.

 

[Rigafan]

There is a rumour about 2nd Chinese club, however, no details are available.

I remember such rumours. While a second Chinese team is not overly a bad idea, the situation with BEIJING Kunlun must be sorted out first. Are they a travelling circus or are they a Beijing based team? Enough excuses from them about their Arena, find another arena in or around Beijing and don't transport yourself 2,000 miles away!

 

[vorky]

I remember such rumours. While a second Chinese team is not overly a bad idea, the situation with BEIJING Kunlun must be sorted out first. Are they a travelling circus or are they a Beijing based team? Enough excuses from them about their Arena, find another arena in or around Beijing and don't transport yourself 2,000 miles away!

I do understand your approach, but I get their (Kunlun´s) approach too.

You need to know that the game of hockey is a new thing for Chinese. Even club´s officials have been learning since day one.

All the problem with "not playing in Beining" was the training facilities. They could not train at that big venue, too expensive. Btw, they had the same problem in Shanghai where they needed to share the rink with other sports.

All this has been sorted out, I hope, with that 2022 Olympics training complex in Beijing which was finished this year. They even played their last two regular-season games there in 2018-19.

We still do not know if this complex is their final home. Because as I heard, they are building their own arena, but again, Chinese government paperwork is too long and complicated. Not easy to build something in Beijing, even for them. Btw, Rosneft has the same problem in Moscow with CSKA new venue. And Gazprom has the same problem with the new venue for SKA.

Now, they are playing in Shenzhen. But again, it has nothing to do with the club. China celebrates its anniversary, so flights & public events like games are restricted in September in Beijing. Even the NHL cancelled their China games for that reason. We can not blame Kunlun for it. They will be in Bejing since October and will not move anywhere anymore. No reason for it.

It would be really good for Chinese hockey if they get another KHL club. They could create some rivalry. Now, they have 3 clubs in VHL, one in MHL and one in Women League. The 2nd Chinese club would solve the KHL´s scheduling headache, they would have 5 Far East clubs there - Amur, Admiral, KRS, 2nd CHN and Japanese club. The best scenario for the league.

 

[Rigafan]

I do understand your approach, but I get their (Kunlun´s) approach too.

You need to know that the game of hockey is a new thing for Chinese. Even club´s officials have been learning since day one.

All the problem with "not playing in Beining" was the training facilities. They could not train at that big venue, too expensive. Btw, they had the same problem in Shanghai where they needed to share the rink with other sports.

All this has been sorted out, I hope, with that 2022 Olympics training complex in Beijing which was finished this year. They even played their last two regular-season games there in 2018-19.

We still do not know if this complex is their final home. Because as I heard, they are building their own arena, but again, Chinese government paperwork is too long and complicated. Not easy to build something in Beijing, even for them. Btw, Rosneft has the same problem in Moscow with CSKA new venue. And Gazprom has the same problem with the new venue for SKA.

Now, they are playing in Shenzhen. But again, it has nothing to do with the club. China celebrates its anniversary, so flights & public events like games are restricted in September in Beijing. Even the NHL cancelled their China games for that reason. We can not blame Kunlun for it. They will be in Bejing since October and will not move anywhere anymore. No reason for it.

It would be really good for Chinese hockey if they get another KHL club. They could create some rivalry. Now, they have 3 clubs in VHL, one in MHL and one in Women League. The 2nd Chinese club would solve the KHL´s scheduling headache, they would have 5 Far East clubs there - Amur, Admiral, KRS, 2nd CHN and Japanese club. The best scenario for the league.

I understand the problem isn't as simple as we write on here and they have faced some issues. It they were simply named HC KUNLUN it wouldn't bother me so much but the fact they stick to the Beijing name yet based themselves out of Shanghai was very odd. I don't think we'd have seen massive attendances in Shanghai even with a neutral name but it would have felt better organised.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I do understand your approach, but I get their (Kunlun´s) approach too.

You need to know that the game of hockey is a new thing for Chinese. Even club´s officials have been learning since day one.

All the problem with "not playing in Beining" was the training facilities. They could not train at that big venue, too expensive. Btw, they had the same problem in Shanghai where they needed to share the rink with other sports.

All this has been sorted out, I hope, with that 2022 Olympics training complex in Beijing which was finished this year. They even played their last two regular-season games there in 2018-19.

We still do not know if this complex is their final home. Because as I heard, they are building their own arena, but again, Chinese government paperwork is too long and complicated. Not easy to build something in Beijing, even for them. Btw, Rosneft has the same problem in Moscow with CSKA new venue. And Gazprom has the same problem with the new venue for SKA.

Now, they are playing in Shenzhen. But again, it has nothing to do with the club. China celebrates its anniversary, so flights & public events like games are restricted in September in Beijing. Even the NHL cancelled their China games for that reason. We can not blame Kunlun for it. They will be in Bejing since October and will not move anywhere anymore. No reason for it.

It would be really good for Chinese hockey if they get another KHL club. They could create some rivalry. Now, they have 3 clubs in VHL, one in MHL and one in Women League. The 2nd Chinese club would solve the KHL´s scheduling headache, they would have 5 Far East clubs there - Amur, Admiral, KRS, 2nd CHN and Japanese club. The best scenario for the league.

The country needs to solidify the team they already have before they deserve a second. They broke the KHL record for lowest attendance - 550 people. Expanding for the sake of expanding, or trying to figure out a permanent home, or not being able to accomplish things off the ice, or to create some rivalry is how the European KHL voyage got started. And we all know how that has turned out. The KHL needs to wait for this current round of arenas to be built and then exclusively waiting for markets with the finances, infrastructure, and support to sustain a team. Tashkent, St. Peterburg 2.0, and 5 other places are much more worthy expansion choices over a second Chinese team.

 

[vorky]

I understand the problem isn't as simple as we write on here and they have faced some issues. It they were simply named HC KUNLUN it wouldn't bother me so much but the fact they stick to the Beijing name yet based themselves out of Shanghai was very odd. I don't think we'd have seen massive attendances in Shanghai even with a neutral name but it would have felt better organised.

Again, I understand you.

I do not want to be nitpicking, but do you really know their official name? Does its name include really the city of Beijing?

According to wiki, it is just Kūnlún Hóngxīng, no Beijing. Even the logo does not include the city name.

Of course, they have their office in Beijing, they need to have their official HQ somewhere. But they present themselves as a team of all Chinese, not just Beijingers.

But I agree, they did not predict such problems with a venue in Beijing when launching the project. Thank God, all problems are the past, lets us hope.

Btw, since speaking about Japan. They may be a similar problem with an arena. Do they have any 10k venue for winter sports somewhere in Japan? What about venues for the Tokyo Summer Games? Can they be used for hockey?

 

[vorky]

@Barclay Donaldson

You are not the KHL official. Your opinion has no influence on the league´s decision. I care about the KHL´s position, not yours.

 

[Albatros]

Again, I understand you.

I do not want to be nitpicking, but do you really know their official name? Does its name include really the city of Beijing?

According to wiki, it is just Kūnlún Hóngxīng, no Beijing. Even the logo does not include the city name.

Of course, they have their office in Beijing, they need to have their official HQ somewhere. But they present themselves as a team of all Chinese, not just Beijingers.

In fact the Kunlun mountains are in Tibet and Xinjiang (Uyghuristan) of all places.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

@Barclay Donaldson

You are not the KHL official. Your opinion has no influence on the league´s decision. I care about the KHL´s position, not yours.

And you aren't a KHL official either, although you are an unofficial media mouthpiece for them. Your opinion has no influence on the league's decisions. If it did, there would be a dozen dead KHL teams scattered throughout West Europe and East Asia. I care about sustainably growing hockey in Europe and Asia, not your plan to put a KHL team everywhere but on the moon. You're trying to give a country a second team when they can't support one team. You've been preaching KHL expansion for how many years now? How many times have you been correct with your KHL teams going to Sweden, Germany, France, UK? Just as correct as your assertion that China should get a second team.

 

[vorky]

[Mod]

Your problem is that you want everything to happen within a year. It does not work like that. The KHL plans for a much longer period of time.

As you correctly said, I can not influence the league to expand somewhere. And that is just fine! I can just analyse what is happening right now. And I am doing it very well.

"Скорее всего, в ближайшее время в Китае появится еще один клуб уровня КХЛ. Также интерес проявляют и японцы", - сказал Чернышенко.

Ранее Чернышенко говорил про возможное появление в лиге команд из Франции и Германии. "Их появление реально", - отметил он.

Most likely, the second Chinese club will join the KHL soon. And Japanese have also been showing their interest, said Chernyshenko.

Chernyshenko said earlier about possible expansion with French & German clubs. "Their joining is realistic," he said.

You need to know that Chernyshenko will tell all the details when the process of negotiation is finished.

You misunderstand me, I would say. All I do is to describe the process of negotiations. Or do you claim there are no negotiations behind the closed doors?

It is not really my fault that the Chinese want the second team, Japanese wanting a team as well, French & Germans are active in negotiations. Really, I can not influence them. We need to wait for Chernyshenko´s statement that the negotiations are finished and their results. Meantime we can discuss the process of negotiations.

 

[Rigafan]

Again, I understand you.

I do not want to be nitpicking, but do you really know their official name? Does its name include really the city of Beijing?

According to wiki, it is just Kūnlún Hóngxīng, no Beijing. Even the logo does not include the city name.

Of course, they have their office in Beijing, they need to have their official HQ somewhere. But they present themselves as a team of all Chinese, not just Beijingers.

But I agree, they did not predict such problems with a venue in Beijing when launching the project. Thank God, all problems are the past, lets us hope.

Btw, since speaking about Japan. They may be a similar problem with an arena. Do they have any 10k venue for winter sports somewhere in Japan? What about venues for the Tokyo Summer Games? Can they be used for hockey?

If I'm wrong then by all means nit-pick and call it out. I'm sure, like 100% sure that they used to be HC Kunlun Beijing? and their logo/branding, especially when they were in Shanghai also said Beijing? Maybe its just some Mandela effect moment for me.

Either way its nice to see they are just HC Kunlun. Their new website is also positive and has a decent online store (Chinese only but its better than most teams, looking at your Riga!)

 

[Rcknrollkillnmachine]

Regarding Asian expansion the island of Sakhalin has been mentioned since it is part of Russia (north of Japan).

 

[Section Netherlands]

Regarding Asian expansion the island of Sakhalin has been mentioned since it is part of Russia (north of Japan).

I feel like this would be a short term solution, where it's an Asian expansion in name only. Not big enough for KHL. They are better off in AIHL

 

[Jussi]

And you aren't a KHL official either, although you are an unofficial media mouthpiece for them. Your opinion has no influence on the league's decisions. If it did, there would be a dozen dead KHL teams scattered throughout West Europe and East Asia. I care about sustainably growing hockey in Europe and Asia, not your plan to put a KHL team everywhere but on the moon. You're trying to give a country a second team when they can't support one team. You've been preaching KHL expansion for how many years now? How many times have you been correct with your KHL teams going to Sweden, Germany, France, UK? Just as correct as your assertion that China should get a second team.

Funny thing, he was actually called out for it by a Finnish ACTUAL journalist, who is known to have have sources in hockey circles. It's not quite the same as Bob McKenzie calling HFBoards posters ass clowns at HFBoards but close enough.

Edit: He's actually saying vorky is on KHL's payroll.



"I couldn't have thought the KHL could go to these lengths. It's one thing to silence one annoying Finnish journalist, but it's a whole different thing to create a fake journalist to manipulate the fans and media."