Kevyn Adams GM thread

[Mattilaus]

I might not be explaining my stance properly. My stance is not that Clifton and EJ are bad editions or that replacing players like clague and pulit is a bad thing. Those moves have been described here in way I agree with "they haven't hurt the team". It is good we have two players on the bottom pair who don't hurt us as much as the players they have replaced did.

My stance is that seeing as those were the only moves done, KA seems to think that is all this team really needed to snag a playoff spot. He said the goal was playoffs and these were his only additions to achieve that goal. He did not (to our collective knowledge) strive to bring in good impact players who would improve the roster. He just brought in two players who would hurt us less than the previous ones. Good additions? Yes, but if thats all KA thought we would need to be a playoff team then it seems his evaluation of the roster is somewhat lacking.

To be clear, I predicted playoffs too, but I am not a professional, paid to evaluate talent and construct a team.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

I might not be explaining my stance properly. My stance is not that Clifton and EJ are bad editions or that replacing players like clague and pulit is a bad thing. Those moves have been described here in way I agree with "they haven't hurt the team". It is good we have two players on the bottom pair who don't hurt us as much as the players they have replaced did.

My stance is that seeing as those were the only moves done, KA seems to think that is all this team really needed to snag a playoff spot. He said the goal was playoffs and these were his only additions to achieve that goal. He did not (to our collective knowledge) strive to bring in good impact players who would improve the roster. He just brought in two players who would hurt us less than the previous ones. Good additions? Yes, but if thats all KA thought we would need to be a playoff team then it seems his evaluation of the roster is somewhat lacking.

I agree on the first paragraph. I think with KA's summer moves, he wanted to make some relatively cheap upgrades to the worst part of the roster where some guys had big minutes that clearly didn't belong in the NHL. I don't think any playoff talk was more than lip service to the fans and the players. I think from his end there was hope, but no plan to "make it happen".

I'm not even sure he'll change course next summer either. I think he'll probably rely on changing out pending UFAs with a couple prospects and again hope for the best. Awful but probable.

 

[Chainshot]

I agree on the first paragraph. I think with KA's summer moves, he wanted to make some relatively cheap upgrades to the worst part of the roster where some guys had big minutes that clearly didn't belong in the NHL. I don't think any playoff talk was more than lip service to the fans and the players. I think from his end there was hope, but no plan to "make it happen".

I'm not even sure he'll change course next summer either. I think he'll probably rely on changing out pending UFAs with a couple prospects and again hope for the best. Awful but probable.

I would agree. And at some point the next leap forward is going to have to come from some sort of move to shuffle in someone in the middle of the lineup, either forward or defense, that begins to address the issues they have at either end of the rink. That doesn't seem like it's going to be something that functions by having more smallish, offensive minded players bubbling into the lineup who don't yet know how to play defensive hockey at the NHL level.

 

[Mattilaus]

I agree on the first paragraph. I think with KA's summer moves, he wanted to make some relatively cheap upgrades to the worst part of the roster where some guys had big minutes that clearly didn't belong in the NHL. I don't think any playoff talk was more than lip service to the fans and the players. I think from his end there was hope, but no plan to "make it happen".

I'm not even sure he'll change course next summer either. I think he'll probably rely on changing out pending UFAs with a couple prospects and again hope for the best. Awful but probable.

I can't comment on what he thought unfortunately, only what he said and he said the goal was playoffs.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

I agree on the first paragraph. I think with KA's summer moves, he wanted to make some relatively cheap upgrades to the worst part of the roster where some guys had big minutes that clearly didn't belong in the NHL. I don't think any playoff talk was more than lip service to the fans and the players. I think from his end there was hope, but no plan to "make it happen".

I'm not even sure he'll change course next summer either. I think he'll probably rely on changing out pending UFAs with a couple prospects and again hope for the best. Awful but probable.

I don't think Adams has a clue as to what to do or how to do it. He's a rookie GM who actually is prey for all the veteran GMs out there to feast upon.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

I don't think Adams has a clue as to what to do or how to do it. He's a rookie GM who actually is prey for all the veteran GMs out there to feast upon.

Well I don't know that he's THAT bad...at least I hope not.

 

[MOGlLNY]

I don't think Adams has a clue as to what to do or how to do it. He's a rookie GM who actually is prey for all the veteran GMs out there to feast upon.

lol this is an exaggeration and hyperbole if i've ever seen it. Adams isnt getting preyed upon. The issue is he's afraid to get preyed upon and won't make any moves because of it. You're a better poster than this.

Well I don't know that he's THAT bad...at least I hope not.

He's not. massive exaggeration.

 

[Irie]

I agree on the first paragraph. I think with KA's summer moves, he wanted to make some relatively cheap upgrades to the worst part of the roster where some guys had big minutes that clearly didn't belong in the NHL. I don't think any playoff talk was more than lip service to the fans and the players. I think from his end there was hope, but no plan to "make it happen".

I'm not even sure he'll change course next summer either. I think he'll probably rely on changing out pending UFAs with a couple prospects and again hope for the best. Awful but probable.

I honestly believe that Adams tried to address the top 4 D issue, but quickly realized that every team in the league is looking for a top 4 RHD upgrade, and there really aren't options available unless you are willing to sell the farm. Adams was not willing to do that so he fell back on plan B - "overpaying short-term UFAs to entice them to come to Buffalo and provide defensive depth while kicking the larger issue of finding a longterm top 4 solution down the road."

He got lucky that R Johnson and Jokiharju have stepped up the way they have, or the optics on that front would look so much worse.

 

[Tatanka]

lol this is an exaggeration and hyperbole if i've ever seen it. Adams isnt getting preyed upon. The issue is he's afraid to get preyed upon and won't make any moves because of it. You're a better poster than this.


He's not. massive exaggeration.

You realize you are saying the same thing. Coach wrote he is prey…i.e. he will be eaten. You wrote he is afraid to be eaten. You are both right.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

lol this is an exaggeration and hyperbole if i've ever seen it. Adams isnt getting preyed upon. The issue is he's afraid to get preyed upon and won't make any moves because of it. You're a better poster than this.


He's not. massive exaggeration.

Of course it is.......... He's just another Chiarelli, Or that doofus in Ottawa.

I mean let's all make excuses for poor Kevin and convince ourselves he's not that bad of a GM. Especially compared to who we've had in the role the past 2 decades.... GMTM, Big Head Botts, Darcy Afraid To Make A Move, Medicine Man Larry Quinn.....

Where is efing Gerry Meehan when you really need him? lol

 

[Irie]

lol this is an exaggeration and hyperbole if i've ever seen it. Adams isnt getting preyed upon. The issue is he's afraid to get preyed upon and won't make any moves because of it.

I don't even believe he is afraid of being preyed upon. We saw him hold his cards and wait for the right deal in the Eichel mess.

I just think he and Granato are not ready to move on from any of the players or prospects yet.

They are suffering from "analysis paralysis" - who do you give up on? Savoie? Rosen? Kulich? UPL? Jokiharju? Krebs? R. Johnson?

The guys we all want to get rid of have zero value. Upgrading this team is going to require giving up several guys we don't want to see moved. That is why I say I believe they are still in the evaluation phase.

 

[Ace]

Well I don't know that he's THAT bad...at least I hope not.

Four off-seasons and his team is behind the one he took over.

Every contract here except Skinners was either acquired by or signed by him. He picked the coach. It’s his team. And they’re behind the one that got Botterill fired coached by Ralph Krueger.

It doesn’t take long to list all of his additions to the roster in the last two years since the Eichel trade. It takes longer to point to the move that has helped.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Four off-seasons and his team is behind the one he took over.

Every contract here except Skinners was either acquired by or signed by him. He picked the coach. It’s his team. And they’re behind the one that got Botterill fired coached by Ralph Krueger.

It doesn’t take long to list all of his additions to the roster in the last two years since the Eichel trade. It takes longer to point to the move that has helped.

Another speech regurgitating the same stuff. I don't disagree with all of this, but your response has nothing to do with what my comment was about. You're just using it to get on your well worn soapbox.

 

[Irie]

Of course it is.......... He's just another Chiarelli, Or that doofus in Ottawa.

I mean let's all make excuses for poor Kevin and convince ourselves he's not that bad of a GM. Especially compared to who we've had in the role the past 2 decades.... GMTM, Big Head Botts, Darcy Afraid To Make A Move, Medicine Man Larry Quinn.....

Where is efing Gerry Meehan when you really need him? lol

I think there is a big difference between an overly patient GM and a Chaos agent GM.

Chiarelli in Edmonton was pure Chaos, trading all their futures away for questionable help now. Francis in Carolina stockpiled assets and wouldn't make a trade unless it was the perfect deal.

The situation Chiarelli left Holland in Edmonton vs the situation Francis left Waddell in Carolina are very different. Adams has been more like Francis than Chiarelli. While Adams may not be making shrewd GM moves, he also is not destroying the future.

It could be worse. If I knew Terry would hire an upgrade, I would be onboard with replacing Adams, but given Pegula's track record, holding on to Adams a bit longer seems much safer.

 

[Deep Blue Metallic]

I honestly believe that Adams tried to address the top 4 D issue, but quickly realized that every team in the league is looking for a top 4 RHD upgrade, and there really aren't options available unless you are willing to sell the farm. Adams was not willing to do that so he fell back on plan B - "overpaying short-term UFAs to entice them to come to Buffalo and provide defensive depth while kicking the larger issue of finding a longterm top 4 solution down the road."

He got lucky that R Johnson and Jokiharju have stepped up the way they have, or the optics on that front would look so much worse.

Massively lucky on R Johnson. Nobody envisioned him being top-4 this season. (When Don decides to play him there.)

I had high hopes for Clifton, partner for Power even, but both the term and $ have proven to be beyond what he's worth, which is a contract like Lyubushkin's. Not a huge overpayment, just not great value. Your can-kicking speculation certainly applies to EJ's 1-year deal, but less so for Clifton's 3-year term.

It's more likely to me that Adams thought he had landed an undervalued player with upside in Clifton. Which brings me to questions I've been wondering about for a while.

Our vaunted analytics team surely has input into potential acquisitions. Did they contribute to the overvaluation on Clifton? Are they meeting expectations generally with respect to league scouting? I see no evidence of it.

 

[Gras]

Massively lucky on R Johnson. Nobody envisioned him being top-4 this season. (When Don decides to play him there.)

I had high hopes for Clifton, partner for Power even, but both the term and $ have proven to be beyond what he's worth, which is a contract like Lyubushkin's. Not a huge overpayment, just not great value. Your can-kicking speculation certainly applies to EJ's 1-year deal, but less so for Clifton's 3-year term.

It's more likely to me that Adams thought he had landed an undervalued player with upside in Clifton. Which brings me to questions I've been wondering about for a while.

Our vaunted analytics team surely has input into potential acquisitions. Did they contribute to the overvaluation on Clifton? Are they meeting expectations generally with respect to league scouting? I see no evidence of it.

Clifton is playing his offhand which is probably not when they envisioned when they signed him, he was supposed to battle with Joker for the 2nd pair and Joker won. Next season if they roll then he probably plays a different game and gets closer to living up to his contract.

Sammy/RyJo-Dahlin
Power-Joker/UFA/Trade
Sammy/RyJo-Clifton

 

[Irie]

Massively lucky on R Johnson. Nobody envisioned him being top-4 this season. (When Don decides to play him there.)

I had high hopes for Clifton, partner for Power even, but both the term and $ have proven to be beyond what he's worth, which is a contract like Lyubushkin's. Not a huge overpayment, just not great value. Your can-kicking speculation certainly applies to EJ's 1-year deal, but less so for Clifton's 3-year term.

It's more likely to me that Adams thought he had landed an undervalued player with upside in Clifton. Which brings me to questions I've been wondering about for a while.

Our vaunted analytics team surely has input into potential acquisitions. Did they contribute to the overvaluation on Clifton? Are they meeting expectations generally with respect to league scouting? I see no evidence of it.

I believe that Granato felt like the team needed more physicality on the blueline, and I think Clifton was probably at least partially his idea.

Lyubushkin was supposed to provide that, but he was always battling injury and really was only a physical difference in a handful of games last year. It was pretty clear with Granato only playing him 8 minutes in back to back games with the playoffs on the line at the end of the season that he was not a trusted option.

Boosh's inability to break the puck out when he had time last season and holding it too long leading to turnovers quite often likely led to the decision. I think Adams and Granato felt they could get a physical D in Clifton that could PK and work the breakout better for nearly the same cap cost.

I think a few posters on this board anointed Clifton the next top-4 savior, I am not sure the front office felt the same way. I believe he was realistically viewed as a #5 that can play in the #4 role in a pinch around the league. My guess is that he was mainly brought in to be an upgraded Boosh replacement.

I was not a huge fan of the signing over the summer, as I stated I did not think he was a top 4 option, but I also admitted that I liked the depth it gave the team and how it increased the D pairing options. Not the worst signing, and it did look better after the Lyubushkin trade.

 

[BFLO]

They are not concerned with the history of the organization or the length of the playoff drought. As far as Adams and company are concerned, the plan started when Granato was named fulltime coach and the roadmap was established, presumably with Pegulas blessing.

3 years ago

 

[HOOats]

Massively lucky on R Johnson. Nobody envisioned him being top-4 this season. (When Don decides to play him there.)

Appreciate this conversation, just one thought. While almost every coin flip regression/progression of our young guys has gone the wrong way, at least a few were always going to hit. RyJo and to some extent Joki are among those few, even if they might have been the longer shots.

If we're going to call Adams lucky that those guys are progressing, then he's been way more unlucky that so many of the other youngsters haven't. Sure the FO/staff has some influence on how the progress goes, but much of it is relatively random too. They could have reduced their exposure to that randomness by plugging in a few more proven guys, but that wasn't their plan. It's the blessing/curse of the youngest team in hockey, surprises/disappointments.

 

[TehDoak]

They are not concerned with the history of the organization or the length of the playoff drought. As far as Adams and company are concerned, the plan started when Granato was named fulltime coach and the roadmap was established, presumably with Pegulas blessing.

He was as big of a part of the Krueger dive bomb as anyone. Adams has had 4 full offseasons, ther result is an poorly constructed roster with a shit ton of forward prospects, probably the most expensive defense in the league next year that can't defend. and a hope that goaltending will figure itself out. It doesn't matter what the front offices is concerned with, the reality of the situation is what it is.

I'm not moving any goalposts. My words were the same two years ago and the same this last offseason. I said this team was not a playoff team and that it looked to me like they were still a year away from seriously addressing the holes and roster balance because it looked like they still had evaluation yet to do on the group of players I listed.

Only in this bizarro world do player evaluations take entire seasons. If they don't know who these guys are by now, I simply don't know what to say.

6.5 added while moving out Hinostroza's 1.7. Bjork's 1.8, Lyubushkin's 2.75 and dropping Okposo from 6 to 2.5.

There still is a cap floor, and they didn't want to have injuries crush the team like they did last year, so spending some of the money they jettisoned on temp D depth was a safety net, not a playoff guarantee.

I agree with your evaluation of the job they did last year, but disagree that they thought it was enough to make the playoffs. Playoffs, playoffs playoffs was all we heard from the front office staff and coaching staff and players during training camp.

They accumulated 91 points last season.

Expecting to get into the playoffs with 92 points is usually wishful thinking. The year before it would have taken them 101 points to make the playoffs in the east. The difference between a 91 point season and a 101 point season is so much more than 10 points. The Quality of season a team has to put up to break the 100 point threshold is large. Every point above 90 is 10 times more difficult to get than the 10 points above 80, because with the limited amount of available points, the more you get means the more nights during the season you have to perform.


That is exactly why he would never say that, even if the reality was that they were still evaluating Mitts, Krebs, Joker, Jost, UPL, Peterka and Quinn and making decisions on who was expendable.

They obviously thought they would be better so far this year than they have been, but GMs are always going to overstate expectations on upcoming seasons. There was never any presser where I got the feeling Adams was saying "we have to make the playoffs". He was actually very careful with his words, and was pressed by reporters in every interview. His canned response was always, Playoffs are the goal this season. If playoffs were the bare minimum, his words would have been completely different.

Low standards and aspiring to mediocrity is a hallmark of this front office.

 

[Irie]

Only in this bizarro world do player evaluations take entire seasons. If they don't know who these guys are by now, I simply don't know what to say

You obviously never played hockey yourself.

You have obviously never coached or been involved in player development.

You frankly do not understand the process of development.

These are 19, 20, 21, 22 year old kids here. Many of them won't reach their potential until their mid 20s or later. Development is never linear. Organizations give up on prospects too soon all the time and they go on to become great players with other teams.

Adams and Granato are still trying to evaluate what they have in the young players, along with guys like Kulich, Savoie, Ostlund, etc.

They are going to have to move a bunch of assets to bring in the quality required to make this team a contender. Who do you move, who do you keep?

This is not like football, where players peak a few years after being drafted. It is a time consuming process that takes years, and even then, it is easy to get wrong.

 

[Chainshot]

I believe that Granato felt like the team needed more physicality on the blueline, and I think Clifton was probably at least partially his idea.

Lyubushkin was supposed to provide that, but he was always battling injury and really was only a physical difference in a handful of games last year. It was pretty clear with Granato only playing him 8 minutes in back to back games with the playoffs on the line at the end of the season that he was not a trusted option.

Boosh's inability to break the puck out when he had time last season and holding it too long leading to turnovers quite often likely led to the decision. I think Adams and Granato felt they could get a physical D in Clifton that could PK and work the breakout better for nearly the same cap cost.

I think a few posters on this board anointed Clifton the next top-4 savior, I am not sure the front office felt the same way. I believe he was realistically viewed as a #5 that can play in the #4 role in a pinch around the league. My guess is that he was mainly brought in to be an upgraded Boosh replacement.

I was not a huge fan of the signing over the summer, as I stated I did not think he was a top 4 option, but I also admitted that I liked the depth it gave the team and how it increased the D pairing options. Not the worst signing, and it did look better after the Lyubushkin trade.

I would agree on the Clifton thing - Granato used to talk about that element that Fitz brought that they needed in their mix too. Same with Stillman later in the season, getting someone who had even a modicum of bite in their game is something Granato wanted.

The Clifton thing has been made worse by putting him on his off-hand side to start the year opposite EJ who has had separate issues. It messed with his confidence as he himself described. Some guys aren't comfortable with it - Avs fans have pointed out that EJ struggled there as well in Colorado when asked to do it. Since the Power-Clifton duo doesn't get much run though it does seem to sort of work offensively (positive xGF stuff, positive shots for) and not defensively (that save % on ice is among the worst on the team, outscored 8-4), that shuffles things into two LD and two RD each being on a pair if they aren't willing to use Dahlin or Power with EJ or Clifton.

I think Don gets that not all of his defense can be PMD's.

 

[sabremike]

You obviously never played hockey yourself.

You have obviously never coached or been involved in player development.

You frankly do not understand the process of development.

These are 19, 20, 21, 22 year old kids here. Many of them won't reach their potential until their mid 20s or later. Development is never linear. Organizations give up on prospects too soon all the time and they go on to become great players with other teams.

Adams and Granato are still trying to evaluate what they have in the young players, along with guys like Kulich, Savoie, Ostlund, etc.

They are going to have to move a bunch of assets to bring in the quality required to make this team a contender. Who do you move, who do you keep?

This is not like football, where players peak a few years after being drafted. It is a time consuming process that takes years, and even then, it is easy to get wrong.

So how many more development years are acceptable? How many more seasons as the league doormat are acceptable? How many more seasons that are over before New Years Day are acceptable? How long before all the losing and failure poisons them all just like the guys we ended up getting rid of who went on to great success elsewhere?

And the bigger problem is the idea guys are developing when anyone watching this team can see the exact opposite happening with guys who are regressing badly throughout the roster. Watch this team try and play it's way out of it's own end when facing a forecheck, they should play Yakety Sax over the PA system every time it happens.

 

[Irie]

So how many more development years are acceptable? How many more seasons as the league doormat are acceptable? How many more seasons that are over before New Years Day are acceptable? How long before all the losing and failure poisons them all just like the guys we ended up getting rid of who went on to great success elsewhere?

And the bigger problem is the idea guys are developing when anyone watching this team can see the exact opposite happening with guys who are regressing badly throughout the roster. Watch this team try and play it's way out of it's own end when facing a forecheck, they should play Yakety Sax over the PA system every time it happens.

You misunderstand

I am not defending the state of this team. I am just giving my perspective on the where *I* think Adams and Granato are at in terms of their timeline and plan.

Personally I would have done a lot of things differently. Less kids, more vets and moved on from some of the longer tenured players.

What I can say, (from my perspective), is that this team is actually in a decent place, all things considered. I feel strongly that coaching is letting this team down right now. As I have said from day one, Granato is a players coach, but he is a minor league system coach. He does not have the tools in his toolbag to make the adjustments to break the trap this team is facing night in and night out. The players are always running the same schemes, and they flat out are not effective. There are only a couple other coaches in the league that would continue to keep trying the exact same plan over and over again and think that changing lines may solve the problem without making adjustments. They are also minor league coaches.

A strong match-up line to take tough minutes, and a new coaching philosophy, and I think this team is a lock for a wild card. A couple more years of progress from all these young players, and this team should be challenging for the division title, but the philosophy has got to change, and for that to happen, the coaching has to be addressed. Full assistant overhaul at the bare minimum, and possibly a full staff change if Granato is too loyal to his staff to make the required changes. This current group is not up to this challenge.

As for Adams, I think he is an ok manager that lets his people do their jobs. Not ideal, but way better than someone who is hellbent on change and thinks they know more than they do. This team is close, but a few bad trades could prevent it from ever reaching it's potential,

 

[toddkaz]

You obviously never played hockey yourself.

You have obviously never coached or been involved in player development.

You frankly do not understand the process of development.

These are 19, 20, 21, 22 year old kids here. Many of them won't reach their potential until their mid 20s or later. Development is never linear. Organizations give up on prospects too soon all the time and they go on to become great players with other teams.

Adams and Granato are still trying to evaluate what they have in the young players, along with guys like Kulich, Savoie, Ostlund, etc.

They are going to have to move a bunch of assets to bring in the quality required to make this team a contender. Who do you move, who do you keep?

This is not like football, where players peak a few years after being drafted. It is a time consuming process that takes years, and even then, it is easy to get wrong.

How many years will that take?

So they are trying to evaluate guys that aren't in the NHL and haven't played in the NHL and aren't NHL ready? Sounds about right for the Buffalo Sabres.