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Player Discussion Kevin Shattenkirk

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The thing about Shattenkirk is that his defensive lapses "look" (yes, look, I understand that's not scientific) like they occur because he just doesn't care about playing defense. He is totally saving his effort for when he has the puck. Everyone makes a bad decision positionally every now and then, but what I see with Shattenkirk in the D zone is a guy that is just unwilling to "get dirty" and be hard on the man with the puck.

Remember how much we all hated Tom Poti? Poke checks, allergic to peanut butter, that guy? I feel the same about Shattenkirk when the other team has the puck and is bearing down on him.

The thing is, he is ELITE on the PP. I'm on the record here as saying you CANNOT complain about the guy while he's the leading scorer amongst defenseman. As long as he keeps that up, his deficiencies in the defensive zone are acceptable. Let's hope he keeps it up all season and doesn't fall off a cliff in the playoffs.
 
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More than elite he literally is the best by a huge margin. If you take all dmen with over 500 5v4 PP min since 2014 (44 players) he is

1. 1st in points (1 over Karlsson in 350 less minutes)
2. 4th in goals
3. 2nd in assists
4. 2nd in primary assists
5. 1st in pts/60 by a huge margin (6.78. 2nd is Hedman at 5.19)
6. 1st in primary points/60 by a huge margin (4.4. 2nd is Hedman at 3.53)
7. 3rd in goals/60 behind two guys who just fire away in Weber and Faulk
8. 1st in pimarary assists/60

He's been the best in the league and it's not even close

If you go back to 2010 for his entire career he is still 1st in pts/60 in that time frame. Pretty much no matter what sample you look at he is best or second best at worst.

And this is why we should stop the 5L PP2 and having McDonagh+Skjei on the point and just play him the entire PP. Whoever you put out in his place on the second unit will be a gigantic downgrade.
 
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I wasn't big on Shattenkirk via the usual NYR overbidding for a "star" etc... but, credit where credit is due: Shattenkirk took a hefty discount to play someplace he always wanted to play and I give him major props for doing so (and I would to any athlete that did that regardless of what team it is). Further credit where due: the guy had a bumpy start out of the gate but he's exceeded my expectations so far and that fact that our power play actually looks like a power play most nights makes this season less frustrating for sure.
 
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Synergy27 said:
The thing about Shattenkirk is that his defensive lapses "look" (yes, look, I understand that's not scientific) like they occur because he just doesn't care about playing defense. He is totally saving his effort for when he has the puck. Everyone makes a bad decision positionally every now and then, but what I see with Shattenkirk in the D zone is a guy that is just unwilling to "get dirty" and be hard on the man with the puck.

Remember how much we all hated Tom Poti? Poke checks, allergic to peanut butter, that guy? I feel the same about Shattenkirk when the other team has the puck and is bearing down on him.

The thing is, he is ELITE on the PP. I'm on the record here as saying you CANNOT complain about the guy while he's the leading scorer amongst defenseman. As long as he keeps that up, his deficiencies in the defensive zone are acceptable. Let's hope he keeps it up all season and doesn't fall off a cliff in the playoffs.
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He looks like he "doesn't care" because he doesn't have to chase the puck around half the game.
 
SA16 said:
More than elite he literally is the best by a huge margin. If you take all dmen with over 500 5v4 PP min since 2014 (44 players) he is

1. 1st in points (1 over Karlsson in 350 less minutes)
2. 4th in goals
3. 2nd in assists
4. 2nd in primary assists
5. 1st in pts/60 by a huge margin (6.78. 2nd is Hedman at 5.19)
6. 1st in primary points/60 by a huge margin (4.4. 2nd is Hedman at 3.53)
7. 3rd in goals/60 behind two guys who just fire away in Weber and Faulk
8. 1st in pimarary assists/60

He's been the best in the league and it's not even close

If you go back to 2010 for his entire career he is still 1st in pts/60 in that time frame. Pretty much no matter what sample you look at he is best or second best at worst.

And this is why we should stop the 5L PP2 and having McDonagh+Skjei on the point and just play him the entire PP. Whoever you put out in his place on the second unit will be a gigantic downgrade.
Click to expand...

That almost sounds elite level. I was told the Rangers gave no elite level players.
 
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to be honest I think most of his defensive mistakes are from being too aggressive or taking a poor position defensively. If he chilled a bit and let the play come to him better he'd probably avoid a fair number of mistakes, but whatever
 
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At this level, I think, if a player is dogging it it is simply too obvious for debate. So I don't see Shattenkirk's defensive struggles as him being less engaged in his own zone--as if he could brute force better results if he simply cared more about that aspect of his game. No, defense is footwork, vision, and to a degree confidence. Some guys are just flat better in the offensive zone. Some guys are just flat better in the defensive zone. That trajectory, I find, is really locked in by bantams--maybe earlier.
 
SnowblindNYR said:
True Blue is part of the old school crowd that thinks Dale Purinton is a good solid defenseman because he hits and fights.
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Yes, however did you guess?

Wow. So now asking your defenseman to play defense is akin to pining for Dale Purinton. Amazing.
 
Synergy27 said:
The thing is, he is ELITE on the PP. I'm on the record here as saying you CANNOT complain about the guy while he's the leading scorer amongst defenseman. As long as he keeps that up, his deficiencies in the defensive zone are acceptable. Let's hope he keeps it up all season and doesn't fall off a cliff in the playoffs.
Click to expand...
No one is minimizing what he has meant for the PP. But come the playoffs, hiding him from the oppositions not players gets harder. Let's pretend that the pairings stay the same. Aren't you going to want Skej on the ice a lot? Sheltering him in the playoffs becomes more difficult.

Essentially, what he is is a 4th forward on the ice who can QB the PP. At some point, not playing a lick of defense is going to hurt.
 
We should all be happy we had-have Shattenkirk doing his magic on daily basis. And the same thing retired Dan Boyle or Keith Yandle was trying to do for us previous seasons, but it did not work out very well.
 
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I loved the signing from the start. When he had a rough start, its like most people gave up on him and said he was a bad signing. I never gave up on him and look at him now. What a beast.
 
Ori said:
We should all be happy we had-have Shattenkirk doing his magic on daily basis. And the same thing retired Dan Boyle or Keith Yandle was trying to do for us previous seasons, but it did not work out very well.
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Agreed.

Yandle didn't work because he was left-handed and that caused issues on the depth chart.

Boyle...just didn't work. Not sure why. Probably just age. He was trying, but his legs just couldn't do it anymore. But being a righty worked well with our depth chart.

Shattenkirk is basically a young Dan Boyle. And that's a great thing.
 
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True Blue said:
No one is minimizing what he has meant for the PP. But come the playoffs, hiding him from the oppositions not players gets harder. Let's pretend that the pairings stay the same. Aren't you going to want Skej on the ice a lot? Sheltering him in the playoffs becomes more difficult.

Essentially, what he is is a 4th forward on the ice who can QB the PP. At some point, not playing a lick of defense is going to hurt.
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Is he actually being hidden at the moment? Anyone have stats to show he's being sheltered?

He's not a fourth forward either, if you've realistically ever watched a forward try to play defense you'd realize that. He plays defense, he just makes mistakes at times

He's almost a point per game and while he's not going to keep that up most likely I'm seriously not going to start complaining that my top offensive defenseman needs to have his icetime limited

Boyle didn't quite have the legs and skills left in him to play the rover style he really wanted to. He was in a lot of ways worse than Shattenkirk because Boyle wanted to just do whatever the hell he wanted out there while at least Shattenkirk tends to play a little more structured gam
 
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Machinehead said:
If he wasn't all that into getting the puck back, he wouldn't have it so much.
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I can't even tell if you're disagreeing with me. Are you saying that Shattenkirk is good in his zone when he doesn't have the puck? How much he has the puck is irrelevant to that question.

In an extreme case, let's say a guy was so good with the puck that he had it 90% of the time he was on the ice, it wouldn't matter at all how good or bad he was the other 10% of the time. When you're talking 55/45, or even 60/40 (is anyone even that good, I doubt it), your separate skillets with and without the puck are absolutely important.
 
Synergy27 said:
I can't even tell if you're disagreeing with me. Are you saying that Shattenkirk is good in his zone when he doesn't have the puck? How much he has the puck is irrelevant to that question.

In an extreme case, let's say a guy was so good with the puck that he had it 90% of the time he was on the ice, it wouldn't matter at all how good or bad he was the other 10% of the time. When you're talking 55/45, or even 60/40 (is anyone even that good, I doubt it), your separate skillets with and without the puck are absolutely important.
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He's better in his zone than people claim. And he would look more "interested" if he was chasing and blocking shots but then he would suck.

And if a player actually was a 60% possession player, I honestly wouldn't care if he was an AHL player the other 40%. Neither is the case here, though.
 
Crease said:
At this level, I think, if a player is dogging it it is simply too obvious for debate. So I don't see Shattenkirk's defensive struggles as him being less engaged in his own zone--as if he could brute force better results if he simply cared more about that aspect of his game. No, defense is footwork, vision, and to a degree confidence. Some guys are just flat better in the offensive zone. Some guys are just flat better in the defensive zone. That trajectory, I find, is really locked in by bantams--maybe earlier.
Click to expand...

I may have worded my post a bit differently than intended. I don't think he's dogging it, I just think that he lacks a bit of intensity that is required to be a good defensive zone player.

When players are near equal in most attributes, and I argue that this is the case in the NHL, positioning and sheer will are what make good defensive guys. You have to want the puck more than the guy that has it and be willing to sacrifice your body a bit (with a hit, or a hard play on the boards, etc.) in order to make that happen. Shattenkirk does not seem to have that in him.

But again, as was expectedly ignored in my post, you can't complain about this while he's putting up this many points.
 
Machinehead said:
He's better in his zone than people claim. And he would look more "interested" if he was chasing and blocking shots but then he would suck.

And if a player actually was a 60% possession player, I honestly wouldn't care if he was an AHL player the other 40%. Neither is the case here, though.
Click to expand...

There's a difference between "chasing and blocking shots" and making hard, positionally sound plays on the puck carrier in an effort to either separate him from the puck or keep him out of dangerous areas.
 
Synergy27 said:
There's a difference between "chasing and blocking shots" and making hard, positionally sound plays on the puck carrier in an effort to either separate him from the puck or keep him out of dangerous areas.
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Shattenkirk does make hard positionally sound plays on defense.

I don't think defense is an issue at all. He gets in trouble with turnovers trying to play offense. He's not exactly Tom Poti.

If his defense was as bad as advertised, he'd be on the ice for an above average amount of shots and goals against somewhere over the course of his 7+ year career. Must be the luckiest guy in the world sucking defensively and not even trying and still not getting scored on more than his teammates.
 
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Machinehead said:
Shattenkirk does make hard positionally sound plays on defense.

I don't think defense is an issue at all. He gets in trouble with turnovers trying to play offense. He's not exactly Tom Poti.

If his defense was as bad as advertised, he'd be on the ice for an above average amount of shots and goals against somewhere over the course of his 7+ year career. Must be the luckiest guy in the world sucking defensively and not even trying and still not getting scored on more than his teammates.
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hes below average to poor at handling one on ones, particularly with wingers who have speed....he gets turned inside out a LOT.
 
Inferno said:
hes below average to poor at handling one on ones, particularly with wingers who have speed....he gets turned inside out a LOT.
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You know who else had had that problem ? Dan Girardi, a “defensive’ defenseman. But, he ‘cared’ about playing defense, right?
 
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