News Article: Karlsson and Dorion/Melnyk didn't talk after November

[Tnuoc Alucard]

You bring up McDavid with regards to star players bonus money, yet ignore the fact that Ottawa is a bigger city with similar revenue streams. Edmonton also faces the same currency issues YOU claim is such a problem for Melnyk.

The Population of Edmonton, in 2018 is 966,199

The Population of Ottawa, in 2018 is 938,523
The Population of Gatineau, in 2018 is 301,521

A difference of only 273845

Why do you ignore the fact that corporate bases, in these two markets totally different?

The Ottawa/Gatineau Market's LARGEST employer (roughly 40% of the workforce) cannot (by law) financially support the Senators in any way ... tickets, advertising and luxury suites.

Ottawa is smack in between the two LARGEST hockey markets in the Country, and a high percentage of the market is comprised of Leaf and Hab fans.

Have you ever been to Leaf or Had game (in Ottawa)? Do you thing those fans, probably over 50% are coming from Montreal of Toronto?

Do you think there are any employers in Edmonton that have the same restrictions that the Federal Government has, in Ottawa?



So are you going to stick by your assertion that these two markets have "similar" revenue streams?

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

delete

 

[Sensung]

The Population of Edmonton, in 2018 is 966,199

The Population of Ottawa, in 2018 is 938,523
The Population of Gatineau, in 2018 is 301,521

A difference of only 273845

Why do you ignore the fact that corporate bases, in these two markets totally different?

The Ottawa/Gatineau Market's LARGEST employer (roughly 40% of the workforce) cannot (by law) financially support the Senators in any way ... tickets, advertising and luxury suites.

Ottawa is smack in between the two LARGEST hockey markets in the Country, and a high percentage of the market is comprised of Leaf and Hab fans.

Have you ever been to Leaf or Had game (in Ottawa)? Do you thing those fans, probably over 50% are coming from Montreal of Toronto?

Do you think there are any employers in Edmonton that have the same restrictions that the Federal Government has, in Ottawa?

So are you going to stick by your assertion that these two markets have "similar" revenue streams?

The MARKETS DO HAVE SIMILAR REVENUE STREAMS. Just consult Forbes for the numbers.
The Oilers jumped ahead when they built their new arena. The Sens will catch up with Lebreton.
The Oilers spend more on travel than the Sens as a Western conference team.

The only person who can't seem to grasp these obvious facts and continually attempts to muddy the waters with red herrings is YOU!

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

The MARKETS DO HAVE SIMILAR REVENUE STREAMS. Just consult Forbes for the numbers.
The Oilers jumped ahead when they built their new arena. The Sens will catch up with Lebreton.
The Oilers spend more on travel than the Sens as a Western conference team.

The only person who can't seem to grasp these obvious facts and continually attempts to muddy the waters with red herrings is YOU!

Okay, so just ignore the Federal Government, the largest employer in the Ottawa Gatineau region, that comprises about 40% of the workforce, that is unable to spend one penny, in any way, to benefit the Senators.

 

[Sensung]

Okay, so just ignore the Federal Government, the largest employer in the Ottawa Gatineau region, that comprises about 40% of the workforce, that is unable to spend one penny, in any way, to benefit the Senators.

No one is ignoring that fact. Doesn't change the reality that the Sens and Oilers have similar revenues. If they can ever get it changed (highly doubtful) then our revenues would far outstrip the Oilers.

In spite of that fact, the Sens still have comparable revenues to the Oilers who were able to sign McDavid to a bonus laden market value contract.

Why should Sens fans accept that our owner refuses to compete?

Why should Sens fans be expected to foot the bill for the business model the OWNER chose?

You have still yet to provide a single reason why it is our responsibility to make Eugene's business model work for him.

 

[JD1]

would you as a Sens fan be ok with the situation in Edmonton where taxpayers paid a large portion of the cost of that arena?

don't make it about Melnyk with a not with Eugene as an owner response

would you be ok with taxpayers kicking out say 300M?

you can't on the one hand talk about how another city can do something that we seemingly can't without acknowledging the contributions of edmontonians to their situation.

 

[Sensung]

would you as a Sens fan be ok with the situation in Edmonton where taxpayers paid a large portion of the cost of that arena?

don't make it about Melnyk with a not with Eugene as an owner response

would you be ok with taxpayers kicking out say 300M?

you can't on the one hand talk about how another city can do something that we seemingly can't without acknowledging the contributions of edmontonians to their situation.

The city of Ottawa will be contributing via Lebreton.

 

[Micklebot]

The city of Ottawa will be contributing via Lebreton.

In the case of Edmonton's arena, the land constituted about 26 mil in funding. The city contributed about 226 mil in funding for the arena, plus what was essentially a 112 mil loan that was repaid by lease payments.

The difference is that the city technically owns the arena and just leases it to Katz for ~3.25 mil a year.

 

[Sensung]

In the case of Edmonton's arena, the land constituted about 26 mil in funding. The city contributed about 226 mil in funding for the arena, plus what was essentially a 112 mil loan that was repaid by lease payments.

The difference is that the city technically owns the arena and just leases it to Katz for ~3.25 mil a year.

Thanks for the info.

How would you compare the impact of owning the arena vs having to rent like Katz?

Seems like a better deal up front for Katz and over the long haul for Eugene.

 

[Micklebot]

Thanks for the info.

How would you compare the impact of owning the arena vs having to rent like Katz?

Seems like a better deal up front for Katz and over the long haul for Eugene.

On the surface, yes. Seems like a better deal for Katz to me. When it comes to comparing the impacts, it would depend on the details of the agreement for rental. It seems Katz has a really favourable one from what I could tell.

 

[Sensung]

On the surface, yes. Seems like a better deal for Katz to me. When it comes to comparing the impacts, it would depend on the details of the agreement for rental. It seems Katz has a really favourable one from what I could tell.

The re-sale value would be much higher for Eugene with the arena, no?

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

The city of Ottawa will be contributing via Lebreton.

Lebreton Flats has been owned by the Federal Government, for decades, via the NCC.

City of Ottawa is contributing nothing along the line of what Edmonton did for the Oilers.

 

[Sensung]

Lebreton Flats has been owned by the Federal Government, for decades, via the NCC.

City of Ottawa is contributing nothing along the line of what Edmonton did for the Oilers.

True, but the NCC and the City will be helping this project along.

 

[Acidrain66]

would you as a Sens fan be ok with the situation in Edmonton where taxpayers paid a large portion of the cost of that arena?

don't make it about Melnyk with a not with Eugene as an owner response

would you be ok with taxpayers kicking out say 300M?

you can't on the one hand talk about how another city can do something that we seemingly can't without acknowledging the contributions of edmontonians to their situation.

Go ask Calgary

 

[Karl Prime]

I'm going to leave this here since it seems as good a place as any to put it....

I don't understand this idea that Karlsson was a bad teammate and was selfish. The truth is that nobody but the guys in the organization know for sure, but just from everything we've seen and heard, it doesn't add up in my view.

He risked his recovery in 2013 to come back from a torn achilles to help the team in the playoffs, and even returned in the regular season to help them get there. In 2017 he came back to help them get to the playoffs, and of course he was playing with a fractured foot and played the best hockey of his life that spring. He showed he was gritty and tough as well as being ultra-talented. The handshake line after being eliminated by Pittsburgh doesn't show a person that has a big ego or isn't anything other than a very classy individual.

And then there's what has been said about him. Right from day one, Boucher praised his professionalism and his work ethic. Dorion said "on the 8th day God created Erik Karlsson." Borowiecki said Erik helped him with stuff in his personal life. Chabot, as a rookie, praised him as a mentor.

Now, as far as his captainship, that may be a different story. But there are many ways to lead and I'm sure he wasn't a "rah rah" kind of guy so much as a lead by example on the ice kind of guy. I remember Phaneuf said in an interview after the 3rd period in Game 2 against Boston, after they came back from two down, that after the 2nd period there wasn't much said, because everyone knew what had to be done. Those type of expectations would have been set by all the leaders (Andy, Methot, Turris, Ryan, Stone, Phaneuf, MacArthur), and EK as captain would have been at the forefront of that.

I don't buy the argument that there was a rift because he had more leeway from Boucher because why wouldn't he? You're going to let Ben Harpur or Cody Ceci try to do the same things that he can? Obviously it was a rough season for Erik (at both ends) with the exception of the last 20 or so games, but it was a rough season for everyone but Stone and Dzingel. Everybody was bad in the defensive zone. I think Erik was very disappointed in his performance and was frustrated that his body couldn't let him do more.

As for the recent discussions that the team looks happier during the preseason than they did last season, well, of course. The team was out of it by Christmas, so having three months left in the season with no meaningful games to play is not exactly a cheerful situation for a hockey team, especially one that had the season they had before. If the Sens are ranked 25th-31st by Christmas, let's see how happy things are. The youth will inject positive energy, but that can only do so much. Besides, the team was such a "team" in 16-17 despite the entire league claiming how boring the team was and how it was possible to have fun playing that style.

Last season went bad in a hurry after the Sweden trip, and it was a result of many things. The turmoil in the dressing room could have been for a number of different reasons that are more complicated than "Karlsson was a bad teammate and leader." I have a theory that some guys weren't happy that Phaneuf refused to be exposed in the expansion draft so they could protect Methot, even though no team was going to take Dion and his contract. Maybe some guys were unhappy that the "go-for-it" move brought in Duchene but removed Turris. I'm sure the EK trade deadline saga and the Hoffman-Karlsson controversy wasn't easy to deal with for the locker room but Karlsson's play the last month tells me he didn't check out mentally after February.

Anyways, all of this is to basically say that without a former teammate coming out and giving details of what the room was like and Erik's role in it, there's certainly a lot of evidence to the contrary that Erik was nothing less than a consummate professional during his time here. Perhaps some teammates had issues with him, perhaps not. But he became captain in the summer of 2014, and none of this stuff came out before now. I don't think any of his teammates minded when he was the best player in hockey the last 3 months of 14-15, or when he carried the team out of a bottom five finish in 15-16, or carried the team on one foot to within a goal of the Stanley Cup final.

 

[JD1]

I'm going to leave this here since it seems as good a place as any to put it....

I don't understand this idea that Karlsson was a bad teammate and was selfish. The truth is that nobody but the guys in the organization know for sure, but just from everything we've seen and heard, it doesn't add up in my view.

He risked his recovery in 2013 to come back from a torn achilles to help the team in the playoffs, and even returned in the regular season to help them get there. In 2017 he came back to help them get to the playoffs, and of course he was playing with a fractured foot and played the best hockey of his life that spring. He showed he was gritty and tough as well as being ultra-talented. The handshake line after being eliminated by Pittsburgh doesn't show a person that has a big ego or isn't anything other than a very classy individual.

And then there's what has been said about him. Right from day one, Boucher praised his professionalism and his work ethic. Dorion said "on the 8th day God created Erik Karlsson." Borowiecki said Erik helped him with stuff in his personal life. Chabot, as a rookie, praised him as a mentor.

Now, as far as his captainship, that may be a different story. But there are many ways to lead and I'm sure he wasn't a "rah rah" kind of guy so much as a lead by example on the ice kind of guy. I remember Phaneuf said in an interview after the 3rd period in Game 2 against Boston, after they came back from two down, that after the 2nd period there wasn't much said, because everyone knew what had to be done. Those type of expectations would have been set by all the leaders (Andy, Methot, Turris, Ryan, Stone, Phaneuf, MacArthur), and EK as captain would have been at the forefront of that.

I don't buy the argument that there was a rift because he had more leeway from Boucher because why wouldn't he? You're going to let Ben Harpur or Cody Ceci try to do the same things that he can? Obviously it was a rough season for Erik (at both ends) with the exception of the last 20 or so games, but it was a rough season for everyone but Stone and Dzingel. Everybody was bad in the defensive zone. I think Erik was very disappointed in his performance and was frustrated that his body couldn't let him do more.

As for the recent discussions that the team looks happier during the preseason than they did last season, well, of course. The team was out of it by Christmas, so having three months left in the season with no meaningful games to play is not exactly a cheerful situation for a hockey team, especially one that had the season they had before. If the Sens are ranked 25th-31st by Christmas, let's see how happy things are. The youth will inject positive energy, but that can only do so much. Besides, the team was such a "team" in 16-17 despite the entire league claiming how boring the team was and how it was possible to have fun playing that style.

Last season went bad in a hurry after the Sweden trip, and it was a result of many things. The turmoil in the dressing room could have been for a number of different reasons that are more complicated than "Karlsson was a bad teammate and leader." I have a theory that some guys weren't happy that Phaneuf refused to be exposed in the expansion draft so they could protect Methot, even though no team was going to take Dion and his contract. Maybe some guys were unhappy that the "go-for-it" move brought in Duchene but removed Turris. I'm sure the EK trade deadline saga and the Hoffman-Karlsson controversy wasn't easy to deal with for the locker room but Karlsson's play the last month tells me he didn't check out mentally after February.

Anyways, all of this is to basically say that without a former teammate coming out and giving details of what the room was like and Erik's role in it, there's certainly a lot of evidence to the contrary that Erik was nothing less than a consummate professional during his time here. Perhaps some teammates had issues with him, perhaps not. But he became captain in the summer of 2014, and none of this stuff came out before now. I don't think any of his teammates minded when he was the best player in hockey the last 3 months of 14-15, or when he carried the team out of a bottom five finish in 15-16, or carried the team on one foot to within a goal of the Stanley Cup final.

you're really trying hard here

you used the word evidence and you had all kinds of stuff most of which was either hockey speak or anecdotal.

tell you what....if you want evidence....Google quotes from Duchene and Stone since that trade....if you can find an audio track of the drive listen to the Sept 19th show at about 430 and what Mendes said after an interview with Anderson

the most logical inference from what's been said since the trade is these three guys in particular are happy he's gone. why? idk. but it seems pretty damn clear they are happy about it.

 

[Micklebot]

The re-sale value would be much higher for Eugene with the arena, no?

He'd have the resale value of the arena, but who covers the cost of upkeep? Presumably, the city of Edmonton covers cost of maintenance, but idk for sure. I recall Leeder saying they budgeted 3-5 mil per year in maintenance and upgrades. Even at half that, it's 50 mil over the 35 years of lease. By owning a building, you take on additional risks.

 

[JD1]

@Sensung

I asked you about the financial contributions of the two cities.

do you understand the difference? I'm thinking not very well given our past private conversation.

you don't understand what you're into here....you are looking at one side only because it enables you to spew your standard nonsense. ...

explain the advantage Katz has in Edmonton....it's there in the public domain. ... you just need to read and understand it

like I saw you do this week to a poster....I want you to admit your posting about something you don't understand

 

[Micklebot]

the most logical inference from what's been said since the trade is these three guys in particular are happy he's gone. why? idk. but it seems pretty damn clear they are happy about it.

Are they happy he's gone, or happy the circus is over? Karlsson admitted he felt that the writing was on the wall since January, I'm sure everybody felt the same way.

 

[Sensung]

you're really trying hard here

you used the word evidence and you had all kinds of stuff most of which was either hockey speak or anecdotal.

tell you what....if you want evidence....Google quotes from Duchene and Stone since that trade....if you can find an audio track of the drive listen to the Sept 19th show at about 430 and what Mendes said after an interview with Anderson

the most logical inference from what's been said since the trade is these three guys in particular are happy he's gone. why? idk. but it seems pretty damn clear they are happy about it.

You've tried this horseshit before. Once again, I'll call you out on it and you'll run and hide.

Stone was golfing with EK and Chabot the week before training camp. Stone GF tweeted to Melinda and EK about how sad they were to lose such amazing people and how much they would miss them. There is ZERO evidence of a rift between Stone and EK. If you have a shred of evidence, please bring it forward.

Since you are such a fan of telling other posters to do your work, why don't you research how well liked Duchene was in Colorado and the reaction to his leaving.

While you're at it, look up Anderson's track record from anywhere he's played...prickly doesn't even begin to capture the charming personality of this very unpopular teammate in every dressing room he's been in.

 

[Sensung]

@Sensung

I asked you about the financial contributions of the two cities.

do you understand the difference? I'm thinking not very well given our past private conversation.

you don't understand what you're into here....you are looking at one side only because it enables you to spew your standard nonsense. ...

explain the advantage Katz has in Edmonton....it's there in the public domain. ... you just need to read and understand it

like I saw you do this week to a poster....I want you to admit your posting about something you don't understand

JD1, if you have evidence, do the research yourself and present it to the board. I'm not your errand boy to be sent running to do your bidding. Micklebot did present some facts surrounding the difference between Edmonton and Ottawa and a worthwhile exchange occurred. Note that I'm happy to view new information and willing to learn from it.

I have never claimed to be a financial expert. However, one doesn't need to be to grasp the overall picture. If you can help further the discussion and increase my understanding, then please do so. YOU will need to do the research and present your evidence to the board, not demand that others do your work for you.

Since @mysens post was deleted along with my response I'll post the questions here.

Does a poster need to be an accountant/financial expert to ask why it is Sens fans responsibility to make sure every portion of Eugene's operation post a paper profit?

I get why Eugene wants the low risk option of using other people's money while the value of his asset skyrockets, but why should fans be expected to support a model that sees us unable to compete?

Simply saying it is his prerogative is true, but it is also true that it is the fans prerogative to reject that style of ownership.

Other markets with similar revenues have chosen different models. Until Eugene changes his, it won't work in Ottawa.

 

[BatherSeason]

you're really trying hard here

you used the word evidence and you had all kinds of stuff most of which was either hockey speak or anecdotal.

tell you what....if you want evidence....Google quotes from Duchene and Stone since that trade....if you can find an audio track of the drive listen to the Sept 19th show at about 430 and what Mendes said after an interview with Anderson

the most logical inference from what's been said since the trade is these three guys in particular are happy he's gone. why? idk. but it seems pretty damn clear they are happy about it.

Where is your evidence?? The local media have been given their marching orders in that everything any player says, to spin it to make it seem like they are happy Karlsson is gone. TGOR did it this morning. Funny that people keep ignoring the fact that the guys who do not play the game of hockey for this organization are the real ones that brought the chaos to this organization.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Where is your evidence?? The local media have been given their marching orders in that everything any player says, to spin it to make it seem like they are happy Karlsson is gone. TGOR did it this morning. Funny that people keep ignoring the fact that the guys who do not play the game of hockey for this organization are the real ones that brought the chaos to this organization.

So are you saying that Eugene issues directives, talking points and instructions to the local Media as to how to cover the Senators?

 

[Acidrain66]

you're really trying hard here

you used the word evidence and you had all kinds of stuff most of which was either hockey speak or anecdotal.

tell you what....if you want evidence....Google quotes from Duchene and Stone since that trade....if you can find an audio track of the drive listen to the Sept 19th show at about 430 and what Mendes said after an interview with Anderson

the most logical inference from what's been said since the trade is these three guys in particular are happy he's gone. why? idk. but it seems pretty damn clear they are happy about it.

I've listened to it and can't seem to confirm your B.S...but nice try

 

[Acidrain66]

So are you saying that Eugene issues directives, talking points and instructions to the local Media as to how to cover the Senators?

Oh geez stop being so naive...