Kari Lehtonen withdraws from Olympics

[edd1e]

Way to be completely out to lunch.

Did the Flames force Kiprusoff to withdraw?

Or did they say that Kiprusoff would not be given time during the NHL schedual to rest his injury? You said it above, the Flames influenced, they didn't force. My quote clearly explains (which completely blew over your head) the reasons why the Calgary Flames have an interest in what Mikka Kiprusoff does that will affect their franchise.

You know there's more to life than money.

Who give's a **** how much Flames has put money on kipper.

Finns still needs to prove the IIHF why they have to change Kipper and some others, like some other Finn earlier stated.

It's pointless to argue with some of these Flames fans, they just keep pushing althou this matter is already been dealt.

 

[Rover*]

It's pointless to argue with some of these Flames fans,

Exactly. Flames fans are clueless. Kipper isn't injured..he's started 40+ games this year already.

 

[SwisshockeyAcademy]

Exactly. Flames fans are clueless. Kipper isn't injured..he's started 40+ games this year already.

He is hurt, not injured. There is a difference. He can still play but there is no doubt pain to deal with.

 

[Phanuthier*]

You know there's more to life than money.

Is a 2 week tournament more then a career?

Would you give up YOUR career for a 2 week thing?

Who give's a **** how much Flames has put money on kipper.

How about people who have influence?

It's pointless to argue with some of these Flames fans, they just keep pushing althou this matter is already been dealt.

Replace Flames with Finns and you know how I feel.

 

[Phanuthier*]

Exactly. Flames fans are clueless. Kipper isn't injured..he's started 40+ games this year already.

Well, it looks like you really know what's going on then.

 

[Rover*]

Well, it looks like you really know what's going on then.

I do.

 

[Phanuthier*]

Your right. Kiprusoff and Lehtonen arn't injured. The NHL is just trying to screw over Finland. It's all a conspiracy!

 

[Rover*]

Your right. Kiprusoff and Lehtonen arn't injured. The NHL is just trying to screw over Finland. It's all a conspiracy!

Well Lehtonen's is legit as he missed half the season. Kipper on the other hand has missed 0..count them 0 games due to his "injury."

 

[psycho_dad*]

Your right. Kiprusoff and Lehtonen arn't injured. The NHL is just trying to screw over Finland. It's all a conspiracy!

I think the only ones calling it a conspiracy are you guys who think the flames and thrashers are not doing anything wrong. Why is it that you have to try and change the claim of these people who are only saying that it's clear the teams have influenced in their decision and that it is against the agreement? Simply, it is no conspiracy, it's just a few GM's pissing over a country that is less significant to them, to gain an edge.

You go ahead and ridicule people and come up with these conspiracy etc BS, but that does not change the fact that these decisions have been influenced by the teams.

What murky was saying about other hockey fans being immature pricks to others....you sure are a fine example phanuthier. You have absolutely NO capability to think from another point of view, all you see is your own perspective.

 

[Phanuthier*]

I think the only ones calling it a conspiracy are you guys who think the flames and thrashers are not doing anything wrong.

Yeah, thats really a conspiracy.

Why is it that you have to try and change the claim of these people who are only saying that it's clear the teams have influenced in their decision and that it is against the agreement?

I didn't change anything. I backed up reasons why it is fully within their rights and interests to protect their assets.

What murky was saying about other hockey fans being immature pricks to others....you sure are a fine example phanuthier. You have absolutely NO capability to think from another point of view, all you see is your own perspective.

Haha ok.

Maybe its because I actually understand that the NHL runs as a business, and knows hockey isn't Kiprusoff holding hands with Lehtonen, skipping through the flower fields?

Maybe its also because what I'm defending has already happened, that my arguments have already been proven true, and the points I'm arguing are merely to justify what has already come to pass, rather then your ideal little world that the NHL, its teams and all its players should bend over for Finland and the Olympics.

 

[Phanuthier*]

Well Lehtonen's is legit as he missed half the season. Kipper on the other hand has missed 0..count them 0 games due to his "injury."

Maybe you should contact these guys.

Clearly a conspiracy

 

[jekoh]

He is hurt, not injured. There is a difference. He can still play but there is no doubt pain to deal with.

He should rest before the Olympics.

 

[Rover*]

He should rest before the Olympics.

If he was seriously hurt, then the flames would make him as they wouldn't risk their investment. Since they know the injury is no more worse than a paper cut, they continue to play kipper every game, while throwing sauve to the waiver wolves.

 

[SChan*]

I simply agree with the fins on this one. Where did the olympic spirit go?

Olympics should be one of the finest events you could compete in. Kiprusoff should been allowed to go imo.

 

[Phanuthier*]

Olympics should be one of the finest events you could compete in. Kiprusoff should been allowed to go imo.

Last time I checked, he's allowed to go and its his decision. He just choose not to.

 

[psycho_dad*]

Last time I checked, he's allowed to go and its his decision. He just choose not to.

And you are lecturing me about living in a fantasy world?

EVERYONE except you and some other yahoo understands the situation...they were pressured, be it mild or hard, it's as clear as day, it could not be any more obvious. I understand that NHL teams are a business, and business protects it's assets if possible. They have a way to keep at least some smaller nations players at bay, because they wont get into too much trouble for it, so they are doing it and the players play along. If a player stood out and said "My team tried to make me skip the olympics" the team would be in trouble but the player would also get a reputation as "not loyal" for blowing the horn on his own team.

This is not a conspiracy, you have admitted there might have been "pressure". So what is the problem? NHL agreed to the terms that players would go to the olympics. There are ways to go around that, you know it, I know it. But you are the one saying it is fine to bend the rules. And I said it was morally and ethically weak, and I do not like it. I guess we just have a very different view of the world...unfair treatment just does not excite me as much as it excites you, quite obviously. You are willing to accept it and you even keep on defending such tactics.

 

[Phanuthier*]

And you are lecturing me about living in a fantasy world?

EVERYONE except you and some other yahoo understands the situation...they were pressured, be it mild or hard, it's as clear as day, it could not be any more obvious.

So then you agree that it was the player's decision, and not the NHL team then.

So I don't know what your disagreeing with

They have a way to keep at least some smaller nations players at bay, because they wont get into too much trouble for it, so they are doing it and the players play along.

Yeah, that's really the reason, I'm sure.

Sure didn't stop Pittsburg from keeping Sidney Crosby from playing for Canada at the WJC, or Columbas keeping Rick Nash from playing at the WJC.

I doubt Darryl Sutter or Don Waddell are afraid of anyone in the IIHF, Team Canada or Team USA when it comes to having an opinion on the matter. Heck, Team Canada is already bending over backwards to try and keep Darryl's brother Brent in the Team Canada program.

This is not a conspiracy, you have admitted there might have been "pressure". So what is the problem? NHL agreed to the terms that players would go to the olympics. There are ways to go around that, you know it, I know it. But you are the one saying it is fine to bend the rules.

Where did I say it was fine to bend the rules?

Where in the rules does it say that an injured player must play in the Olympics?

Where in the rules does it say an NHL team should put Olympic interests instead of their own? In fact, I can provide a direct example of the contrary. Carolina was going to let Arturis Irbe play for Latvia to make it past the qualifying round, but the NHL stepped in and said Carolina must ice the best possible lineup. There you go, the NHL - not teams, but the NHL itself - directly stepping in showing that NHL interests are far more important then Olympic interests.

The NHL agreed to allow NHL players to play in the Olympics, not that they are forced to play. Find me one source where it states that the NHL agreed to force players to play in the Olympics. Please, show me, because that's the only case you've got.

And I said it was morally and ethically weak, and I do not like it. I guess we just have a very different view of the world...unfair treatment just does not excite me as much as it excites you, quite obviously. You are willing to accept it and you even keep on defending such tactics.

I merely just understand the harsh reality of business. Don't bother trying to question me on ethics, my career requires me to take a test on morals and ethics to do my job. It's just business, and it doesn't violate any sanction of society or prove to be detrimental to any sanction of society in any moral, ethical or financial sense.

 

[psycho_dad*]

The moral and ethical line is there when the guy CAN play for your team but CAN'T for the other team. That is double standard. Either they are not in shape to play or they are, choose one and stick with it. Anything else is hypocrisy.

You have to take tests for moral and ethical values, yet you somehow exclude the business life from every moral and ethical responsibility, saying it's ok and fine because it's business? In my world moral and ethical values are there in everything..in business too. You just dismiss them because "it's business"? Yeah, I think I am in a position to question your view on moral and ethics, if you think there are walks of life were they should not apply. We both know the reality, big businesses step on moral and ethics. You even know that it happened here, but for some reason it is too hard for you to admit that your flames might have done something questionable. I can admit when my fav team does something questionable, it's not my shame but theirs.

There is no rule that players HAVE TO play in the olympics, but both Kiprusoff and especially Lehtonen was excited to go. Kipper played the ***** role better, Lehtonen was obviously even more disappointed and let it show in his comments after the decision had been made for him. As he said "we then decided that was my only option". Just a week before he was excited about going, he did not get injured again or nothing like that, and suddenly it's his only option to skip? You really gonna tell me Thrashers had nothing to do with his decision?

Same with Kipper...he had a whole different deal with team Finland, and once it got public, it took him a day to do a 180 turn, despite the deal he had with team finland. Sure...of course there wasn't any interference there by flames...

 

[SChan*]

has any canadian been pressured to not go to olympics?

 

[helicecopter]

Or did they say that Kiprusoff would not be given time during the NHL schedual to rest his injury? You said it above, the Flames influenced, they didn't force. My quote clearly explains (which completely blew over your head) the reasons why the Calgary Flames have an interest in what Mikka Kiprusoff does that will affect their franchise.

LOL, i guess you would expect the Flames to go out and announce: "we are using every weapon we have to discourage Kiprusoff from playing in the Olympics! " IF that was case, right?

I didn't change anything.

You have changed what people have been saying. As psycho_dad explained we were not talking about conspiracy.

I backed up reasons why it is fully within their rights and interests to protect their assets.

The fact you don't understand or don't care about the other people's posts where they explained why you are wrong doesn't mean you have backed up reasons why it would be fully within their rights and interests to protect their assets (going against a contract they agreed before.)

..that my arguments have already been proven true.

yeah, by the Flames saying they didn't put any pressure on Kiprusoff right?

Where in the rules does it say that an injured player must play in the Olympics?

It's clear we are talking with a deaf or with someone who is not listening. Whatever the case, the result is the same..we are losing our time.

So, enjoy your Flames and hope Kiprusoff isn't going to choke in the playoffs after playing 80 regular season games through injury!

 

[Phanuthier*]

The moral and ethical line is there when the guy CAN play for your team but CAN'T for the other team. That is double standard. Either they are not in shape to play or they are, choose one and stick with it. Anything else is hypocrisy.

That was not tested in either situation. The Calgary Flames and Atlanta Thrashers made a suggestion to Kiprusoff and Lehtonen, they didn't force anything on anyone. That's no different from a family doctor or a father giving a suggestion. The ultimate decision came to Kiprusoff and Lehonenn.

Thus, no moral or ethical issues come into question.

You have to take tests for moral and ethical values, yet you somehow exclude the business life from every moral and ethical responsibility, saying it's ok and fine because it's business? In my world moral and ethical values are there in everything..in business too. You just dismiss them because "it's business"? Yeah, I think I am in a position to question your view on moral and ethics, if you think there are walks of life were they should not apply. We both know the reality, big businesses step on moral and ethics. You even know that it happened here, but for some reason it is too hard for you to admit that your flames might have done something questionable. I can admit when my fav team does something questionable, it's not my shame but theirs.

Wrong. The reality of the world is that moral and ethical values are not just personal, they are standards used to protect either an individual from a business, a society from a business or business from a business. In this case, the first point does not apply because that issue has not been crossed. Should it have been, and lets say the Flames FORCED Kiprusoff to stay, Kiprusoff could file suite against the Calgary Flames on the backing of the players union, because he is protected. That avenue has not been breached. The point you are arguing is not one of which we are dealing with an individual and a business, but a business and a business - the Olympics in the NHL. You are questioning should the NHL have an impact on the Olympics? Well considering that one business (The NHL and the Calgary Flames) are protecting an investment and an asset, it is fully within their rights as the investor. The other business can cry and moan all they like, but the reality of the situation is that they hold no power.

I know and understand this, because I know and understand that in industries where morals and ethics are an issue, associations are formed to protect the profession from society/business and vis versa, and in it simply does not apply in this case. In industiries where it does become an issue, standards are put forth, and this simply is not the case.

There are no moral or ethical issues called into question for investors making recommendations to protect their assets. So you have no argument here.

The only thing happened here is that your country took a hit when a very good player withdrew, and you find a need to place blame somewhere. I simply realize that it is the nature of the beast, and understand how the NHL runs its business.

You have to take tests for moral and ethical values, yet you somehow exclude the
There is no rule that players HAVE TO play in the olympics, but both Kiprusoff and especially Lehtonen was excited to go.

Really? Wasn't he a 3rd man last time, and something happened where he withdrew from the tournament? Or made a remark about unfair treatment?

Yeah, I guess he was real excited to go there.

he did not get injured again or nothing like that, and suddenly it's his only option to skip? You really gonna tell me Thrashers had nothing to do with his decision?

Of coarse they did. As an employer and a big part of his life and career, Lehtonen talks with the Atlanta Thrashers and their team's doctors. No difference from talking to his father for advice.

Same with Kipper...he had a whole different deal with team Finland, and once it got public, it took him a day to do a 180 turn, despite the deal he had with team finland. Sure...of course there wasn't any interference there by flames...

Finland reports the Calgary Flames forced him to withdraw. North America reports that Kiprusoff did not want to be chosen, and told Kurri he did not want to play, but Kurri named him anyways hoping he'd play and Kiprusoff was very suprised. Kurri said he talked to Kiprusoff and said they would decide at the time, while Kiprusoff said he had met with doctors that morning and they said it would take 3-4 weeks to heal that injury, and when Kiprusoff went to Sutter and asked, Sutter said he would not be given time off during the regular season to heal his injury.

Take what you want from that. Personally, I see a bigger issue such as medication that may be banned by the IOC, that doctors had told Kiprusoff after he had been named - it wasn't an issue before, but was now - and that's why Kiprusoff withdrew. Or maybe it was a combination of that and Sutter saying he Kiprusoff would not be given a chance to rest during the regular season.

All in all, no morals or ethics are called into question here.

 

[helicecopter]

I think the only ones calling it a conspiracy are you guys who think the flames and thrashers are not doing anything wrong. Why is it that you have to try and change the claim of these people who are only saying that it's clear the teams have influenced in their decision and that it is against the agreement? Simply, it is no conspiracy, it's just a few GM's pissing over a country that is less significant to them, to gain an edge.

You go ahead and ridicule people and come up with these conspiracy etc BS, but that does not change the fact that these decisions have been influenced by the teams.

What murky was saying about other hockey fans being immature pricks to others....you sure are a fine example phanuthier. You have absolutely NO capability to think from another point of view, all you see is your own perspective.

 

[Phanuthier*]

The fact you don't understand or don't care about the other people's posts where they explained why you are wrong doesn't mean you have backed up reasons why it would be fully within their rights and interests to protect their assets (going against a contract they agreed before.)

I have fully explained with logic and reason, and it has been shown as it has come to pass.

The difference is that Finland posters are *****ing and moaning and basing their arguments on emotion, not logic. Some (ie. you) so far as to believe there is even a conspiracy or ethical issues come into question. They don't

The agreement - which you have clearly showed that you know nothing about - merely states that NHL players may be released to participate in Olympic competition. I know in Calgary, the only issue is that Kiprusoff was paid $3.5 million to play 65-70 games for the Calgary Flames, and would not be given rest or detract from the plan just so Kiprusoff can pursue personal interests. There is no agreement in the deal with the IIHF by which NHL teams must bend over and do whatever they must do to ensure the interests of the Olympics. NHL teams also have no right to keep a player from joining Olympic competition, which they agreed to, but that issue is not called into question here. The only issue is what advice NHL teams give to Kiprusoff and Lehtonen that you disagree with, and there is no sanction in the IIHF that would suggest that anything has been breached here.

It's clear we are talking with a deaf or with someone who is not listening.

No, you are dealing with someone who argues with logic and understanding, rather then emotion. Point and case?

So, enjoy your Flames and hope Kiprusoff isn't going to choke in the playoffs after playing 80 regular season games through injury!

Petty spite

 

[psycho_dad*]

You claim you argue with logic and reasoning, yet you fail to see the logical connection in a "strong suggestion from your employer" and "moral and ethic issues".

Once you have some sort of influence on someone, you have some sort of control over them too. Just like if I told my wife not to go to a bar with her friends because I wanted her to stay home to "avoid possible problems". She would know, that my suggestion is a loaded one, if she does not comply, there will be trust issues, there will be me "getting back at her" in different ways, forcing my own will and stepping over her wishes because she decided not to listen to mine. See that is control, and employers have the similar control over their assets, especially in a very highly paying job like professional athlete. If you are paid 3 million a year, you probably listen to the hand that feeds you. Now here comes a moral issue. If the team says, "you better rest during the olympics", it's not as simple as you have tried to water it down...it's not a situation where you can just go "sorry but NHL has a rule that I can go". Of course you CAN do that, but you know it will come back to haunt you.

When there is control, there is a moral issue. If you really used logic and reasoning, you would know this, and you would not deny it.

 

[Phanuthier*]

You claim you argue with logic and reasoning, yet you fail to see the logical connection in a "strong suggestion from your employer" and "moral and ethic issues".

You honestly think there's a moral issue in a team making a recommendation to its player?

When there is control, there is a moral issue. If you really used logic and reasoning, you would know this, and you would not deny it.

No there isn't. I have taken coarses and have to take tests on morals and ethics as required by my profession, and this is simply not true. Just because its unfair, don't mean there is a ethical question here. This is a business decision, and you are mixing it up with personal morals.