Proposal: Kappo Kakko for Jayden Struble + NJ 3rd

[Prairie Habs]

If MTL didn't pay 1st+ for both Dach and Newhook that would hold a lot more weight

And those comparisons would hold more weight if Kakko was as valuable as those players

 

[pth2]

Not a bad proposal. It comes down to player evaluation - if Struble is seen as a Chiarot type, Montreal don't move him; if NYR still believe Kakko can be a Lehkonen type, they don't move him, either.

Montreal shouldn't be making short term moves and Demidov and Slafkovsky should be the two top RW, long term, so if Montreal gets Kakko, it won't be for a high end kind of price.

 

[FiveTacos]

Lmao no from Rangers.


He’s 23 years old…before last years leg injury he had 40 points in 80 games. We’ll hold him thanks.

At this point the reality is he's not going to bring back much. So yes, better to ride it out and hope his offense comes around. He's not gonna depreciate much more than he already has, but could still raise his stock.

Have to say though, I didn't find his 40 points to be one of those situations that made me think "there's a ton more untapped offense with this dude, he's really dynamic/creative/skilled.". He's starting to remind me a bit of Nik Sundstrom ... good player but had no zip to his game.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

And what would be the right price according to you?

Cause frankly, that's all I'd be ready to pay..

Engstrom and Beck.

 

[samsagat]

Kakko and Groulx for Kidney, Engstrom and F.Xhekaj

I'd do that.

But as far as I'm concerned, Struble +3rd has a better value than this package.


P.S.: I totally understand the concept of keeping Kakko at this point for NYR fans.

His value is actually low and there's still a chance he's gonna become something.

But Struble ain't no shit. He's solid defensively, he's very strong and skates well.
He's just caught in a numbers game in MTL.
Kakko has a higher ceiling but as of now, Struble is a more useful player.

 

[samsagat]

Engstrom and Beck.

Ok, I personally think that at this point, Beck alone is at least worth Kakko.

He might not have a high offensive ceiling, but Beck has the pedigree to become a good middle six center and have good probabilities to reach his potential.

He has a clear identity which Kakko doesn't have.

Kakko was drafted to become a top 6 offensive winger, and failed, he's been drafted 5 years ago (as a top 2 pick).

Furthermore, winger is the easiest position to evaluate and develop when it comes to prospects... and still he's in no man's land in terms of his development.

What is he? What's his role?

He never developed into what he was drafted for, he's not a typical role player with defensive acumen, nor a physical player.

My offer was made because he clearly need a change of scenery.

But as I said in an earlier message, I totally get why NYR fans would prefer to keep him at this point.

As he won't fetch much in a trade, keeping him hoping he sees the light might be the team's best option.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Ok, I personally think that at this point, Beck alone is at least worth Kakko.

He might not have a high offensive ceiling, but Beck has the pedigree to become a good middle six center and have good probabilities to reach his potential.

He has a clear identity which Kakko doesn't have.

Kakko was drafted to become a top 6 offensive winger, and failed, he's been drafted 5 years ago (as a top 2 pick).

Furthermore, winger is the easiest position to evaluate and develop as prospects... and still he's in no man's land in terms of his development.

What is he? What's his role?

He never developed into what he was drafted for, he's not a typical role player with defensive acumen, nor a physical player.

My offer was made because he clearly need a change of scenery.

But as I said in an earlier message, I totally get why NYR fans would prefer to keep him at this point.

As he won't fetch much in a trade, keeping him hoping he sees the light might be the team best option.

You recognize Kakko is a PROVEN (so not anyone thinks) 40 point middle six winger who is very good defensively. The only difference in this is center vs. winger, but again Beck is not proven, and Kakko is.

Kakko also doesn't clearly need a change of scenery. He needs to play better hockey. It doesn't work that you put him on a different team, and he's all of a sudden an NHL all-star. His skillset is what it is. If you think you are getting a player with true 2OA upside, you are probably in for a rude awakening once he gets to Montreal. He's not what he was advertised as.

The Rangers have no reason to trade Kakko while his value is the lowest. He's coming off an injury-riddled season. If you want him, you have to pay a higher price than the "buy low" price. The Rangers aren't trying to trade him, so to "go out and get him", it's going to take somewhere between a "buy high" price and an offer we can't refuse.

 

[Michoulicious]

I'd not trade Struble.

I think the guy is a 2nd pair D all day a soon as next year.

 

[samsagat]

Un

You recognize Kakko is a PROVEN (so not anyone thinks) 40 point middle six winger who is very good defensively. The only difference in this is center vs. winger, but again Beck is not proven, and Kakko is.

Kakko also doesn't clearly need a change of scenery. He needs to play better hockey. It doesn't work that you put him on a different team, and he's all of a sudden an NHL all-star. His skillset is what it is. If you think you are getting a player with true 2OA upside, you are probably in for a rude awakening once he gets to Montreal. He's not what he was advertised as.

The Rangers have no reason to trade Kakko while his value is the lowest. He's coming off an injury-riddled season. If you want him, you have to pay a higher price than the "buy low" price. The Rangers aren't trying to trade him, so to "go out and get him", it's going to take an offer we cant refuse.

Yeah, just like Josh Anderson is a proven 27 g 47 pts player.

And very good defensively?

He might be ok, but not the type his coaches put against opposition's best players, in key moments...

As for the change of scenery thing, no, I don't dream about him suddenly becoming the next A. Ovechkin if he came to MTL.

But maybe being on a team that doesn't have a win now mentality, being used differently and being given opportunities he didn't have with NYR, with all their star players occupying the good spots on the PP and cie, yeah maybe he could take a step up... or not...

MTL have been good lately to maximize the development of acquired young players, that were stuck in a lower role with their former team...

But that don't mean they'd be 100% successful doing so neither.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Un


Yeah, just like Josh Anderson is a proven 27 g 47 pts player.

And very good defensively?

He might be ok, but not the type his coaches put against opposition's best players, in key moments...

As for the change of scenery thing, no, I don't dream about him suddenly becoming the next A. Ovechkin if he came to MTL.

But maybe being on a team that doesn't have a win now mentality, being used differently and being given opportunities he didn't have with NYR, with all their star players occupying the good spots on the PP and cie, yeah maybe he could take a step up... or not...

MTL have been good lately to maximize the development of acquired young players, that were stuck in a lower role with their former team...

But that don't mean they'd be 100% successful doing so neither.

I think you have a very warped idea of what Kakko is.

He's never been a talented offensive player at any point in his NHL career. He doesn't have a few magic moments every few games and contributes nothing aside from that. That's not what he is. We never see this player he was advertised.

He's a different player. He's a boring, vanilla defensive winger who has pretty average offensive capabilities. He can't shoot or pass. He has tunnel vision. He's not a smart offensive player. He doesn't skate that well. He has good puck control, puck protection, he's strong in board battles, and positions himself well in relation to the puck when his team doesn't have the puck, but the actual scoring skills are nearly zilch.

He consistently registers good defensive numbers, but he also consistently registers bad offensive analytics, especially the actual scoring, not expected. Literally nothing happens when he's on the ice. His analytics pretty much show he's a deterrent to his teammates offense, but also good for their defense. He's boring, vanilla hockey. A coach's dream grinder middle six player, but obviously not what you hope for out of a 2OA.

 

[dgibb10]

And those comparisons would hold more weight if Kakko was as valuable as those players

Kakko's 22-23 season clears any year of Dach or Newhooks career, especially pre trade.

Just curious, do highly drafted underperforming players magically skyrocket in value retroactively in your mind immediately after your favourite team acquires them, or do you wait until they've actually played a game?

 

[GAGLine]

You won't get much more than this for Kakko.

He had 19 pts in 61 games last year and he's not seen as a young prospect anymore.

I don't care. I'd rather get nothing for him than risk trading him for peanuts and him figuring it out somewhere else.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Don’t let NYR fans come in here with their false outrage and convince you this is somehow unfair to the NYR side. Kakko isn’t worth anything more than a player like Struble at this point, but they have to believe he is due to him being a former 2nd overall pick and the sunk cost fallacy.

This would be a nothing trade for both sides, if we’re being realistic. Kakko is a youngish bottom-six forward and Struble is a youngish bottom-pairing defenseman. I literally would not care one way or the other whether this trade happened or not, and I don’t think it moves the needle in any direction for either side.

But again, NYR fans will tell you otherwise because he was drafted 2nd overall, and in their mind they “lose value” if they trade him for a player like Struble, even though that’s all he’s worth now. Let them pretend. Also, if this deal were to go down, the Habs don’t add anything; it would be a 1-for-1.

 

[UnSandvich]

There are 470 players who've played at least 2000 minutes over the last 3 seasons. Kakko's GA/60 of 1.95 is T-16th. The team doesn't give up goals when he's on the ice.

 

[GAGLine]

Don’t let NYR fans come in here with their false outrage and convince you this is somehow unfair to the NYR side. Kakko isn’t worth anything more than a player like Struble at this point, but they have to believe he is due to him being a former 2nd overall pick and the sunk cost fallacy.

This would be a nothing trade for both sides, if we’re being realistic. Kakko is a youngish bottom-six forward and Struble is a youngish bottom-pairing defenseman. I literally would not care one way or the other whether this trade happened or not, and I don’t think it moves the needle in any direction for either side.

But again, NYR fans will tell you otherwise because he was drafted 2nd overall, and in their mind they “lose value” if they trade him for a player like Struble, even though that’s all he’s worth now. Let them pretend. Also, if this deal were to go down, the Habs don’t add anything; it would be a 1-for-1.

It has nothing to do with value. It's about risk vs reward. If Kakko figures it out, the Rangers lose this trade. If he doesn't, they break even at best. There's no upside for the Rangers.

 

[Garbageyuk]

It has nothing to do with value. It's about risk vs reward. If Kakko figures it out, the Rangers lose this trade. If he doesn't, they break even at best. There's no upside for the Rangers.

You can say the same thing about Struble. What if he “figures it out” and becomes a rock solid 2nd pairing D? Then the Habs lose this trade. He’s excellent defensively on a shit team, rarely makes mistakes, and plays with polish and poise. He showed quite a lot in his first NHL season - hit the ground running in a tough situation and came through 56 games looking sterling, like a seasoned pro, not like a guy who’d never played in the NHL before. There’s risk here for MTL too. It’s an even trade and I wouldn’t be excited for it. I wouldn’t necessarily be mad either, but like I said, it’s kind of a lateral move from all angles, and a gamble, for both sides. An unnecessary one, imo.

 

[dgibb10]

You can say the same thing about Struble. What if he “figures it out” and becomes a rock solid 2nd pairing D? Then the Habs lose this trade. He’s excellent defensively on a shit team, rarely makes mistakes, and plays with polish and poise. He showed quite a lot in his first NHL season - hit the ground running in a tough situation and came through 56 games looking sterling, like a seasoned pro, not like a guy who’d never played in the NHL before. There’s risk here for MTL too. It’s an even trade and I wouldn’t be excited for it. I wouldn’t necessarily be mad either, but like I said, it’s kind of a lateral move from all angles.

Struble ranked 206th/217 qualifying players in xGoals against/60 while on the ice. (by far the worst on the habs btw).

In what world are we pretending he's "excellent defensively".

 

[Garbageyuk]

Struble ranked 206th/217 qualifying players in xGoals against/60 while on the ice. (by far the worst on the habs btw).

In what world are we pretending he's "excellent defensively".

He was a rookie playing bottom-pairing minutes on one of the worst defensive teams in the league. That’s going to skew things in certain areas. I love how you took a single obscure metric and used it as evidence against his entire game and potential. Also, given the context of the post, I was quite obviously speaking in relative terms, but I think you knew that and decided to pretend otherwise for the sake of your quippy little response.

 

[dgibb10]

He was a rookie playing bottom-pairing minutes on one of the worst defensive teams in the league. That’s going to skew things in certain areas. I love how you took a single obscure metric and used it as evidence against his entire game and potential. Also, given the context of the post, I was quite obviously speaking in relative terms, but I think you knew that and decided to pretend otherwise for the sake of your quippy little response.

What part of "by far the worst on the habs" did you miss?

Bottom pairing minutes are generally easier, not harder, especially given how Guhle and Matheson eat most of the tough minutes for MTL.

He had the worst xGoals share among habs dmen (an atrocious group), and gives up more and higher quality chances than any other habs dman. So relative to WHO?

These same excuses about every single one (until they leave the team in which case the narrative immediately shifts)

Xhekaj is actually good he just has no help.
Guhle and Matheson are actually great they just play too many tough minutes.
Savard is still a top 4 dman just in a terrible situation.
Struble is excellent defensively
etc, etc etc.

And then when it comes to the forwards, suddenly its back to being the fault of the dmen.

 

[Garbageyuk]

What part of "by far the worst on the habs" did you miss?

Bottom pairing minutes are generally easier, not harder, especially given how Guhle and Matheson eat most of the tough minutes for MTL.

He had the worst xGoals share among habs dmen (an atrocious group), and gives up more and higher quality chances than any other habs dman. So relative to WHO?

These same excuses about every single one (until they leave the team in which case the narrative immediately shifts)

Xhekaj is actually good he just has no help.
Guhle and Matheson are actually great they just play too many tough minutes.
Savard is still a top 4 dman just in a terrible situation.
Struble is excellent defensively
etc, etc etc.

And then when it comes to the forwards, suddenly its back to being the fault of the dmen.

How does it feel to know Kakko isn’t worth any more than that?

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

How does this make any sense for the Rangers? Fix a hole by making another hole?

Struble doesn't come anywhere close to replacing Lindgren. And if they really needed someone to fill in there will be better defensemen on waivers in the next 2 weeks

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Don’t let NYR fans come in here with their false outrage and convince you this is somehow unfair to the NYR side. Kakko isn’t worth anything more than a player like Struble at this point, but they have to believe he is due to him being a former 2nd overall pick and the sunk cost fallacy.

This would be a nothing trade for both sides, if we’re being realistic. Kakko is a youngish bottom-six forward and Struble is a youngish bottom-pairing defenseman. I literally would not care one way or the other whether this trade happened or not, and I don’t think it moves the needle in any direction for either side.

But again, NYR fans will tell you otherwise because he was drafted 2nd overall, and in their mind they “lose value” if they trade him for a player like Struble, even though that’s all he’s worth now. Let them pretend. Also, if this deal were to go down, the Habs don’t add anything; it would be a 1-for-1.

Brutal take. They are from the same draft class (Struble is even 5 months older as he was one of the oldest players in that 2019 draft class). One of them is an NHL regular in the top 9 for a contending team and the other is a healthy scratch or AHLer on one of the worst d-cores in the league. Even if you don't value Kakko highly he's worth far more than a guy who isn't NHL an caliber player.

 

[HabzSauce]

Why are the Habs as a bottom team trying to plug holes in the present team by trading futures. This is nonsense.

Habs want to start competing. And they have surplus of LD. Struble is too good to be 7th D and I don't see him beating out Guhle/Hutson/Xhekaj

 

[ottawa]

I think it's safe to say that what you see is what you get with Kakko, which imo is a 3rd line two-way winder, and unfortunately it's not pretty considering his draft position and perceived value to Rangers fans here based on that draft position.

He's turning 24 in February, and he's only had one good season and a few injury filled ones.

Not a knock on Kakko, he is probably exactly what the Rangers need but I don't believe he's what the habs need right now, and we have prospects that can step in and fill the role of a 3rd line winger either right now or when we need one in a year or two.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Brutal take. They are from the same draft class (Struble is even 5 months older as he was one of the oldest players in that 2019 draft class). One of them is an NHL regular in the top 9 for a contending team and the other is a healthy scratch or AHLer on one of the worst d-cores in the league. Even if you don't value Kakko highly he's worth far more than a guy who isn't NHL a caliber player.

Meanwhile, Kakko could only muster 9 more points than “a healthy scratch or AHLer on one of the worst d-cores in the league” in more games played. When your guy can barely outscore a rookie defensive dman on a 28th place team, it’s time to take step back and think things through before trashing the other team’s player. Struble was actually out scoring Kakko for the majority of the season - 13 of Kakko’s points were after Feb. 9th lmao. The league better watch out this year if Kakko can continue his hot streak that got him to 19 points