Speculation: Kaliyev trade...

[Schmooley]

He saw plenty of pp time until Jan, but lack of production cost him , then he fell out of favor with the coaches. The most pp TOI was in Dec and had no pp goals, and one assist. He was shooting either high and wide or right into the goalie. He then lost his spot on pp 2.

He fell out of favor with coaches after they moved him off the Danault line onto the PLD line which was a disaster no matter who was on it. They scapegoated Arty and it spiraled from there.
He cant carry a line and has flaws.
But if used properly he will help you win games. He is in the top 10 for goals in his draft class even though he played on the 4th line the whole time and never got more than scrap second pp unit minutes after the vets futz around for nearly a full 2 minutes.

 

[HabsAddict]

Fair enough. I feel like at worst you're going to get a 20/20 guy. He was trending that way until the Kings, for some reason, decided they just didn't want to play him at all. He's been putting up about 15 goals playing with 4th liners and no PP time. It's truly baffling the way they handled him and no one is really explaining why. I mean, the head of their scouting even said the Kings have failed him to some degree.

Is he going to be a 30-goal guy? I wouldn't be shocked honestly, but it's going to depend on where he's placed too. I don't see him as a guy who will do it himself, but there's no reason he CAN'T score 30 in the NHL. If I'm another team I'm not trading for his POTENTIAL 30 goals, but he's going to be a lock for at least 20. I think you're going to get good value for him at this point because the Kings have absolutely destroyed their leverage with him.

Mostly I just don't know enough about Struble to say what would be fair so I'm more or less relying on what you say about him. Asking about the 3rd is just me being greedy and trying to establish what Montreal is giving up. Seems like a swap of players and flipping 1sts might be reasonable...but like you said...no idea really.

Swapping 21 for 26? At that level it's really a crapshoot and no huge value other then if the Habs have some pick they really want. If they did, losing a 3rd rounder amounts to losing a pair of socks. The odds of an NHLer are pretty small.

Back to Kaliyev...I'm always fascinated by kids with immense talent that lack the IQ and desire into improving their skills and making themselves into useful players. Learning to play the 200ft game can make a 20/20 guy into a 4-5 million per and 10-12 year career. Danault was drafted 26th a project at 22 but he made himself useful 5.5 million player, if anything, Kaliyev is bigger then him.

Product of his upbringing? Environment? Attitude? Mental limitations? I don't know but we certainly see this on a constant basis. From my point of view, I don't get it. Born dirt poor and living in slums, there wasn't a choice. Yet some of these kids think they can slide by with what they have, until the next hungrier one eats their career.

 

[Statto]

Fair enough. I feel like at worst you're going to get a 20/20 guy. He was trending that way until the Kings, for some reason, decided they just didn't want to play him at all. He's been putting up about 15 goals playing with 4th liners and no PP time. It's truly baffling the way they handled him and no one is really explaining why. I mean, the head of their scouting even said the Kings have failed him to some degree.

Is he going to be a 30-goal guy? I wouldn't be shocked honestly, but it's going to depend on where he's placed too. I don't see him as a guy who will do it himself, but there's no reason he CAN'T score 30 in the NHL. If I'm another team I'm not trading for his POTENTIAL 30 goals, but he's going to be a lock for at least 20. I think you're going to get good value for him at this point because the Kings have absolutely destroyed their leverage with him.

Mostly I just don't know enough about Struble to say what would be fair so I'm more or less relying on what you say about him. Asking about the 3rd is just me being greedy and trying to establish what Montreal is giving up. Seems like a swap of players and flipping 1sts might be reasonable...but like you said...no idea really.

I don’t disagree it’s perplexing but why would they explain it?

 

[tny760]

Back to Kaliyev...I'm always fascinated by kids with immense talent that lack the IQ and desire into improving their skills and making themselves into useful players. Learning to play the 200ft game can make a 20/20 guy into a 4-5 million per and 10-12 year career. Danault was drafted 26th a project at 22 but he made himself useful 5.5 million player, if anything, Kaliyev is bigger then him.

who says he lacks IQ or desire? all we know is he doesn't play LA's system right

maybe he doesn't want to play hockey that way, and thus he asked to be traded somewhere they play differently

not everyone wants to or is capable of being this prototypical 200ft player

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

who says he lacks IQ or desire? all we know is he doesn't play LA's system right

maybe he doesn't want to play hockey that way, and thus he asked to be traded somewhere they play differently

not everyone wants to or is capable of being this prototypical 200ft player

I also think this is the lazy explanation made by out of towners based on juniors

he doesn't dig in the corners, he doesn't check is just a meme

he's a big guy who uses his body like Dwight King did, he's not fast but it's not a lack of effort or 'heart' or whatever nebulous bullshit criticism we want to keep heaping at the player instead of the org here

Yeah he's one dimensional, big whoop. he's not a flat out liability unless your'e playing him as a 4th line checking winger and starting him in the defensive zone with Englund repeatedly then going surprised pikachu when he's not scoring...brought to you by the same big brain org that put Kovalchuk on the 3rd line wing with hard dzone starts and the front of the net on the PP and then got shocked, or moved all their centers to wing and went out to get more centers that will likely end up on wing.

like why are we really doing this after years and years of puzzling big brain decisions by an org that thinks they're smarter than everyone else. Blaming Kaliyev against mountains and mountains of evidence is misguided AND f***ing lazy.

 

[AbsentMojo]

Since Blake isnt concerned about building character or cohesion in the lineup.. why not get Laine for Kaliyev as proposed here. Implies not signing Roy or RV and Clodumbus retaining... fills the role they thought Kaliyev would fill (goal scoring).. Poor Arty got the brunt of the Blucoala idiocy.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10124988-4-win-win-trade-packages-for-blue-jackets-forward-patrik-laine

 

[AbsentMojo]

I also think this is the lazy explanation made by out of towners based on juniors

he doesn't dig in the corners, he doesn't check is just a meme

he's a big guy who uses his body like Dwight King did, he's not fast but it's not a lack of effort or 'heart' or whatever nebulous bullshit criticism we want to keep heaping at the player instead of the org here

Yeah he's one dimensional, big whoop. he's not a flat out liability unless your'e playing him as a 4th line checking winger and starting him in the defensive zone with Englund repeatedly then going surprised pikachu when he's not scoring...brought to you by the same big brain org that put Kovalchuk on the 3rd line wing with hard dzone starts and the front of the net on the PP and then got shocked, or moved all their centers to wing and went out to get more centers that will likely end up on wing.

like why are we really doing this after years and years of puzzling big brain decisions by an org that thinks they're smarter than everyone else. Blaming Kaliyev against mountains and mountains of evidence is misguided AND f***ing lazy.

And blowing their wad and extending a 1 dimensional player in the last offseason as their crowning achievement after holding such a hard line with Kaliyev - more evidence (not that we needed any) of disorganization.

Urban Dictionary: Crowning

 

[tny760]

Since Blake isnt concerned about building character or cohesion in the lineup.. why not get Laine for Kaliyev as proposed here. Implies not signing Roy or RV and Clodumbus retaining... fills the role they thought Kaliyev would fill (goal scoring).. Poor Arty got the brunt of the Blucoala idiocy.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10124988-4-win-win-trade-packages-for-blue-jackets-forward-patrik-laine

i must be missing where one half of "win" in "win-win" on that trade is

laine probably needs to go to some basement team where he regains his confidence then gets deadlined to a better team

 

[Brownie to Pancakes]

i must be missing where one half of "win" in "win-win" on that trade is

laine probably needs to go to some basement team

Have you seen the kings roster

 

[Sol]

He fell out of favor with coaches after they moved him off the Danault line onto the PLD line which was a disaster no matter who was on it. They scapegoated Arty and it spiraled from there.
He cant carry a line and has flaws.
But if used properly he will help you win games. He is in the top 10 for goals in his draft class even though he played on the 4th line the whole time and never got more than scrap second pp unit minutes after the vets futz around for nearly a full 2 minutes.

It's truly unbelievable that there are people on our boards who think Kaliyev has gotten a fair shake when he's been routinely shafted. And despite all his awful deployments, he's produced. He could have cratered.

 

[MonkeysUncle]

who says he lacks IQ or desire? all we know is he doesn't play LA's system right

maybe he doesn't want to play hockey that way, and thus he asked to be traded somewhere they play differently

not everyone wants to or is capable of being this prototypical 200ft player

That is one or if not with the Kings. They draft players with a certain skill set and then bear down that skill set and make them play a system the is not conducive to them. "Square peg round hole" I firmly believe Kaliyev will become a 25/25 minimum on a team that will utilize him. Just look at how the Kings used Pld, didn't use him the way he was used in Winnipeg and put him with a rookie who is just 3rd line at this point

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

My lasting memory of Arty with this org will be when they finally allowed him some PP time after riding the bench for 7 years and he shanked a one-timer, and promptly broke his stick over the bench knowing it was the last shift he would ever get.

And then he got to watch PLD go out there and take as many strides in 18 minutes as arty did in 3 while they call Arty's efforts out

 

[AbsentMojo]

That is one or if not with the Kings. They draft players with a certain skill set and then bear down that skill set and make them play a system the is not conducive to them. "Square peg round hole" I firmly believe Kaliyev will become a 25/25 minimum on a team that will utilize him. Just look at how the Kings used Pld, didn't use him the way he was used in Winnipeg and put him with a rookie who is just 3rd line at this point

It speaks to the severe lack of talent and vision at the coach and GM level. Koala's ossified, vet centric, martinet culture in an era when you need production from cheap contracts... made it nearly impossible for a young guy to gain traction. No one has thrived in this system or organization... esp not draftees.

 

[MonkeysUncle]

It speaks to the severe lack of talent and vision at the coach and GM level. Koala's ossified, vet centric, martinet culture in an era when you need production from cheap contracts... made it nearly impossible for a young guy to gain traction. No one has thrived in this system or organization... esp not draftees.

One of the reasons I was so pumped when they hired Wrobo a few years back, but as soon as I saw how they played, up tempo, really trying to develop skill, I knew he would not mesh with the Kings and their outdated philosophy. Not sure what happened.

 

[AbsentMojo]

One of the reasons I was so pumped when they hired Wrobo a few years back, but as soon as I saw how they played, up tempo, really trying to develop skill, I knew he would not mesh with the Kings and their outdated philosophy. Not sure what happened.

Me either.. ive never heard the explanation of his departure.. I thought it was very odd - like he had some kind of personal problem to deal with.. but maybe its as simple as he wasnt meshing w their imbecility as u stated

 

[BaileyFan]

Since Blake isnt concerned about building character or cohesion in the lineup.. why not get Laine for Kaliyev as proposed here. Implies not signing Roy or RV and Clodumbus retaining... fills the role they thought Kaliyev would fill (goal scoring).. Poor Arty got the brunt of the Blucoala idiocy.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10124988-4-win-win-trade-packages-for-blue-jackets-forward-patrik-laine

Talk about a lose-lose trade.

 

[bland]

I also think this is the lazy explanation made by out of towners based on juniors

he doesn't dig in the corners, he doesn't check is just a meme

he's a big guy who uses his body like Dwight King did, he's not fast but it's not a lack of effort or 'heart' or whatever nebulous bullshit criticism we want to keep heaping at the player instead of the org here

Yeah he's one dimensional, big whoop. he's not a flat out liability unless your'e playing him as a 4th line checking winger and starting him in the defensive zone with Englund repeatedly then going surprised pikachu when he's not scoring...brought to you by the same big brain org that put Kovalchuk on the 3rd line wing with hard dzone starts and the front of the net on the PP and then got shocked, or moved all their centers to wing and went out to get more centers that will likely end up on wing.

like why are we really doing this after years and years of puzzling big brain decisions by an org that thinks they're smarter than everyone else. Blaming Kaliyev against mountains and mountains of evidence is misguided AND f***ing lazy.

Please tell me that you didn't compare Kaliyev's boardwork to Dwight King's.

Kaliyev is terrible along the wall, it is a totally legitimate criticism of his game. He glides into the proximity of a battle then waves his stick in the fray, he never uses his body for leverage, and very, very rarely wins 50/50 battles. It's the single biggest deficiency in his play - he is a winger who can neither forecheck well or support the forecheck. He likes to hide in the weeds and wait for others to do the work before his skill set kicks in. It's why he (and Fiala for that matter) was most effective with Danault and Moore, they specialized in the forecheck and support

He deserved more opportunities on the PP to show off that skill set, but at the same time it was perfectly understandable why the coaches struggled to find opportunities for him since the rest of his game didn't meet the requirements of a winger in their system.

 

[HabsAddict]

Please tell me that you didn't compare Kaliyev's boardwork to Dwight King's.

Kaliyev is terrible along the wall, it is a totally legitimate criticism of his game. He glides into the proximity of a battle then waves his stick in the fray, he never uses his body for leverage, and very, very rarely wins 50/50 battles. It's the single biggest deficiency in his play - he is a winger who can neither forecheck well or support the forecheck. He likes to hide in the weeds and wait for others to do the work before his skill set kicks in. It's why he (and Fiala for that matter) was most effective with Danault and Moore, they specialized in the forecheck and support

He deserved more opportunities on the PP to show off that skill set, but at the same time it was perfectly understandable why the coaches struggled to find opportunities for him since the rest of his game didn't meet the requirements of a winger in their system.

That wont fly with our coach. Even 5'8" Caufield had to learn to get his nose bruised and to fly back for team defense.

One of our prospects thought we can get by on "skill" but soon found himself on the dog list.

I'm a huge believer of hard work. Four lines of talented furry beats a line or two of fluffy ice queens.

To my delight, MSL and Hughes are building that.

Does Kaliyev fit in that? I don't know...but i do know that he wont have a choice.

 

[HabsAddict]

I also think this is the lazy explanation made by out of towners based on juniors

he doesn't dig in the corners, he doesn't check is just a meme

he's a big guy who uses his body like Dwight King did, he's not fast but it's not a lack of effort or 'heart' or whatever nebulous bullshit criticism we want to keep heaping at the player instead of the org here

Yeah he's one dimensional, big whoop. he's not a flat out liability unless your'e playing him as a 4th line checking winger and starting him in the defensive zone with Englund repeatedly then going surprised pikachu when he's not scoring...brought to you by the same big brain org that put Kovalchuk on the 3rd line wing with hard dzone starts and the front of the net on the PP and then got shocked, or moved all their centers to wing and went out to get more centers that will likely end up on wing.

like why are we really doing this after years and years of puzzling big brain decisions by an org that thinks they're smarter than everyone else. Blaming Kaliyev against mountains and mountains of evidence is misguided AND f***ing lazy.

I always saw the Kings as a big body, hard working team.

We like to blame coaching and sometimes, they deserve to be blamed. But if they are asking a player to back check and put in an effort to cover their man or position, if they don't or wont, bench warming is in the cards.

My biggest pieve is that coaches tend to play safe and play the vets or their favorites. For thst they should be blamed and called out.

We had a situation with X, (Xhekaj). He got drawn into fights and checks, costing the team. He was sent down to the AHL and then back up to play basic defense first, mutilations second. Surprisingly, Struble took his place and did exactly that. Nowhere near the menace X is, but basic defense that won games.

That to me is fair coaching that puts all the emphasis on the player to work on what is needed...and movehis career forward.

Sooo...sometimes it's the coaching, but....too many times it's the players who need to fit into the system.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Please tell me that you didn't compare Kaliyev's boardwork to Dwight King's.

Kaliyev is terrible along the wall, it is a totally legitimate criticism of his game. He glides into the proximity of a battle then waves his stick in the fray, he never uses his body for leverage, and very, very rarely wins 50/50 battles. It's the single biggest deficiency in his play - he is a winger who can neither forecheck well or support the forecheck. He likes to hide in the weeds and wait for others to do the work before his skill set kicks in. It's why he (and Fiala for that matter) was most effective with Danault and Moore, they specialized in the forecheck and support

He deserved more opportunities on the PP to show off that skill set, but at the same time it was perfectly understandable why the coaches struggled to find opportunities for him since the rest of his game didn't meet the requirements of a winger in their system.

It was just a stylistic similarity--shielding the puck, leveraging the wall, not throwing monster hits. I literally right after that said he's one-dimensional just that people are overfocusing on his defensive play to find something 'wrong' since we weren't given much of an explanation otherwise.

and no, i disagree that it's perfectly understandable as you pointed out one of the easiest, most perfect opportunities for him.

I always saw the Kings as a big body, hard working team.

We like to blame coaching and sometimes, they deserve to be blamed. But if they are asking a player to back check and put in an effort to cover their man or position, if they don't or wont, bench warming is in the cards.

My biggest pieve is that coaches tend to play safe and play the vets or their favorites. For thst they should be blamed and called out.

We had a situation with X, (Xhekaj). He got drawn into fights and checks, costing the team. He was sent down to the AHL and then back up to play basic defense first, mutilations second. Surprisingly, Struble took his place and did exactly that. Nowhere near the menace X is, but basic defense that won games.

That to me is fair coaching that puts all the emphasis on the player to work on what is needed...and movehis career forward.

Sooo...sometimes it's the coaching, but....too many times it's the players who need to fit into the system.

But that's my thing here.

There's 'is player coachable/fitting the system'

And then there's "we are putting this one dimensional sniper on the 4th line wing with 3rd pairing d for 6 minutes a game and wondering why he's not effective"

Kaliyev is suffering SO MUCH MORE from the latter than the former and that's why I'm taking such umbrage with it.

 

[HabsAddict]

And then there's "we are putting this one dimensional sniper on the 4th line wing with 3rd pairing d for 6 minutes a game and wondering why he's not effective"

Kaliyev is suffering SO MUCH MORE from the latter than the former and that's why I'm taking such umbrage with it.

Chicken and egg...

Unless his name is Brett Hull and can score 50 from his one dimensional play, Kaliyev will need to do more. Be more.

You can have a legitimate argument that he wasn't shown what was expected from him. Then all failure is on coaching. But if Kaliyev did not WANT to play a more complete game, it's all on him.

As an outsider, I don't know which version is true and to what extend. I do know that he's going to get a fair shake and lots of coaching, but if he does not respond, he's going to learn how to make paper airplanes from the stands.

 

[DoktorJeep]

Kaliyev is a distressed asset, so he might not be traded. Blake has been gun shy in most historically similar situations. He needs to be qualified to retain his rights. And afaik he’s not arbitration eligible.

It’s easy to qualify him, which kicks the can down the road very nicely. By December, you can find some team willing to spend a second or third round pick for his rights. His value can only go up regardless if he’s playing games, scratched or not reporting.

Anything at this point is a win as long as he’s not on waivers. So Blake’s hand will be forced. He just will try to push it to the latest possible date, since he’s a hack and that’s par for the course.

 

[tny760]

Have you seen the kings roster

meh, in the process of being sucked into the black hole

maybe it leads to the basement but they aren't there

 

[SmytheKing]

I don’t disagree it’s perplexing but why would they explain it?

Oh I don't think that they would. It's just an observation. Typically we hear something from the coaches or the staff that would at least let us know "he's not competing hard enough" "he's not going to the difficult places" "he's got the talent but he's still putting things together" or some other sort of thing that would give us some insight into it. When Byfield wasn't playing well we heard things like that. With AK it's just been basically radio silence from what I recall. I could be wrong though.

 

[All The Kings Men]

Oh I don't think that they would. It's just an observation. Typically we hear something from the coaches or the staff that would at least let us know "he's not competing hard enough" "he's not going to the difficult places" "he's got the talent but he's still putting things together" or some other sort of thing that would give us some insight into it. When Byfield wasn't playing well we heard things like that. With AK it's just been basically radio silence from what I recall. I could be wrong though.

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