Player Discussion Kaiden Guhle

[Mrb1p]

That's funny because, the way Matheson is playing, what he brings the rebuild as a good veteran with the kids, etc., Ihaven't once caught myself thinking,"What's frustrating about Matheson..."

No frustrations with, or because of this guy. None whatsoever.

Wasted energy complaining about this player.


So, basically, reading all the posts in every thread, you're outraged about everything Montreal does?

This rebuild must be Shangrila to you?

Im not outraged about everything, just having Slaf in the NHL, passing on Michkov, not having Guhle on the PP and maybe also hanging on to Matheson and Monahan for too long.

Unsure about the Newhook trade.
Oh also passing on Cristall and Firkus, yikes.
The Mesar pick, too.

Thats about it. Are you happy about everything they do ? I wonder what's more realistic, having a weighted view and liking some things or loving everything!

 

[tooji]

No nitpick about this. He shouldnt be on the PK and he should be used as a PP and ES D like every other 1D in the league.

Its only in MTL that we try to reinvent the fkn wheel. So annoying.

1D are often used on PK. Weber and Markov were often our best PKers

 

[ChesterNimitz]

So in other words you find he's a flawless player and should be spared of any critique?

I don’t think he should be traded as many have advanced, I'm a fan of the player and think he brings way more positive than negative to this team.

I just find he's guilty of trying to do too much at times and he needs to find a better balance between being aggressive and knowing when to be aggressive.

Sometimes less is more, he himself has been on record as saying thats something he needs to constantly work on. He tends to over complicate things on the ice when often time, the simple play is the best play.

Seems reasonable to me. I’m not quite sure how you took that post of mine that you quoted as me “complaining”, but it is sensitive times round’ these parts…

I am curious, for those so eager to trade Matheson, who exactly is going to replace the 25-26 minutes that Matheson now plays? I have been a fan of this team for many decades and each era brings the need for a segment of our turbulent fanbase to have a convenient whipping boy to complain about and serve as a player that can be the focus of their frustrations. The very first example of this regrettable phenomenon that I remember was Bernard Geoffrion. Some (many) fans were upset that he was able to win the scoring championship in the 1954-1955 season because of local hero Maurice Richard's suspension. Some fans never forgave him and ragged on him until he was traded. Matheson is an excellent player who is probably being over used due to the current state of our roster. The fact that MSL uses him so often is a good reflection of his comparative value. A reflection that I would trust more than the fans who continue to gripe about this player's level of play.

 

[Mrb1p]

1D are often used on PK. Weber and Markov were often our best PKers

Yes the were, in a winning scenario, sure. In a lost season where were trying to develop players, it matters a lot less.

I think most 1Ds should be used 17-18 minutes at ES, 3-4 minutes on PP1 and about 1 or 2 on the PK. I just want to see ES then PP then PK in the time column, just like every other 1D out there.

Theres no reason why Guhle should be on the PK and not Xehkaj and Xehkaj on the PP but not the PK.
Since 2021-2022:
McAvoy plays 3 minutes of pp and 2 of SH.
Dahlin plays 3:19 of PP and 1 of SH.
Makar plays 4 of PP and 2 of SH.
Werenski plays 3:30 of PP and 1:30 of SH.
Heiskanen plays 2:48 and 1:38
Seider plays 3:00 and 2:48
Ekblad plays 3:28 and 2:48
Douhgty plays 3:13 and 2:15
Josi plays 3:28 and 0:47
Luke Hughes plays 3 minutes of PP and none of SH.
Dobson plays 3 of PP and 0:38 of SH.
Fox plays 3:18 and 2:06
Sanderson plays 2:37 and 3:18 (Its gone up since 2023, this year hes at 3:44 of pp and 3:25 of PK.)
Vince Dunn plays 2:33 and 0:35
Hedman plays 3:07 and 1:56 (Sergachev is even)
Hughes plays 3:49 and 1:16
Pietrangelo plays about even 2:25 each
Morrissey plays 3:17 and 35 seconds
Guhle plays 0:32 and 2:15


PK played 4 minutes and 2 minutes of SH over his career with the Habs
Markov played 4:12 and 2:43 over his career with the Habs
Weber played 2:43 and 2:59 over his career with the habs (3:21 and 1:54 with Nashville.)


It makes no sense to develop Guhle like he's Slavin. Hes not Slavin, he has a very potent offensive tool set.

I am curious, for those so eager to trade Matheson, who exactly is going to replace the 25-26 minutes that Matheson now plays? I have been a fan of this team for many decades and each era brings the need for a segment of our turbulent fanbase to have a convenient whipping boy to complain about and serve as a player that can be the focus of their frustrations. The very first example of this regrettable phenomenon that I remember was Bernard Geoffrion. Some (many) fans were upset that he was able to win the scoring championship in the 1954-1955 season because of local hero Maurice Richard's suspension. Some fans never forgave him and ragged on him until he was traded. Matheson is an excellent player who is probably being over used due to the current state of our roster. The fact that MSL uses him so often is a good reflection of his comparative value. A reflection that I would trust more than the fans who continue to gripe about this player's level of play.

Why do we need someone to replace him in a losing season ? Isn't that a better question ?

I've raised the idea of trading Matheson to Vancouver for Lekkerimaki a 2nd and Myers, Myers could eat up 19 minutes ish and be bad like he is and we wouldn't miss a beat. Savard just went down, who's replacing his 22 minutes a game ? It doesn't matter as much as you think it does.

Unless you think were competing right now, which by all means is a different debate, maybe you need new glasses

 

[417]

I am curious, for those so eager to trade Matheson, who exactly is going to replace the 25-26 minutes that Matheson now plays? I have been a fan of this team for many decades and each era brings the need for a segment of our turbulent fanbase to have a convenient whipping boy to complain about and serve as a player that can be the focus of their frustrations. The very first example of this regrettable phenomenon that I remember was Bernard Geoffrion. Some (many) fans were upset that he was able to win the scoring championship in the 1954-1955 season because of local hero Maurice Richard's suspension. Some fans never forgave him and ragged on him until he was traded. Matheson is an excellent player who is probably being over used due to the current state of our roster. The fact that MSL uses him so often is a good reflection of his comparative value. A reflection that I would trust more than the fans who continue to gripe about this player's level of play.

I'm not sure, I've never advanced wanting to trade Matheson.

There seems to be a fan tendency that when one player is doing well (Guhle), it automatically means another one has to leave.

I don't want him traded (though everyone has a price IMO) but i’m also not going to act like he’s flawless either.

 

[ChesterNimitz]

I'm not sure, I've never advanced wanting to trade Matheson.

There seems to be a fan tendency that when one player is doing well (Guhle), it automatically means another one has to leave.

I don't want him traded (though everyone has a price IMO) but i’m also not going to act like he’s flawless either.

There are few players that are flawless. Matheson is cost effective, brings great mobility and wants to play in Montreal. With a team striving to become relevant, what more can you want from this player. The failings of this team don't rest on Matheson's shoulders. The finger of responsibility for the past 30 years of futility are properly and correctly pointed to other usual and acknowledged suspects.

 

[417]

There are few players that are flawless. Matheson is cost effective, brings great mobility and wants to play in Montreal. With a team striving to become relevant, what more can you want from this player. The failings of this team don't rest on Matheson's shoulders. The finger of responsibility for the past 30 years of futility are properly and correctly pointed to other usual and acknowledged suspects.

I'm not sure where you saw in my posts that I've blamed the failings of this organization in Matheson’s shoulders.

I made ONE comment where I said “he's frustrating because the same things that make him good also make him bad” and I further elaborated that he can be guilty of trying to do too much.

Thats a fair criticism on HIS play, that's not an indictment on his standing on this team.

Put down the pitchfork. I'm a big Matheson fan.

 

[ChesterNimitz]

I'm not sure where you saw in my posts that I've blamed the failings of this organization in Matheson’s shoulders.

I made ONE comment where I said “he's frustrating because the same things that make him good also make him bad” and I further elaborated that he can be guilty of trying to do too much.

Thats a fair criticism on HIS play, that's not an indictment on his standing on this team.

Put down the pitchfork. I'm a big Matheson fan.

It was not my intent to signal that you are among the unreasoning critics of Matheson, but there is a segment here who are. At $4.5 million per year and for what he brings to this team, Matheson provides great value. There are a lot of teams out there that eye him covetously.

 

[417]

It was not my intent to signal that you are among the unreasoning critics of Matheson, but there is a segment here who are. At $4.5 million per year and for what he brings to this team, Matheson provides great value. There are a lot of teams out there that eye him covetously.

Oh 100% that's why I think how Hughes finessed the Pens into trading him for Petry was grand larceny.

He's the perfect bridge for what we currently need, while also allowing guys like Guhle, Barron to continue to mature without shouldering all of the responsibility.

Now, that doesn't mean I would not ever trade him, as you wrote, teams eye him covetuously (great word btw) and you should always be listening for opportunities to improve your team if your Hughes.

But he's not a player I would be actively shopping either.

 

[Bomatane]

I am curious, for those so eager to trade Matheson, who exactly is going to replace the 25-26 minutes that Matheson now plays? I have been a fan of this team for many decades and each era brings the need for a segment of our turbulent fanbase to have a convenient whipping boy to complain about and serve as a player that can be the focus of their frustrations. The very first example of this regrettable phenomenon that I remember was Bernard Geoffrion. Some (many) fans were upset that he was able to win the scoring championship in the 1954-1955 season because of local hero Maurice Richard's suspension. Some fans never forgave him and ragged on him until he was traded. Matheson is an excellent player who is probably being over used due to the current state of our roster. The fact that MSL uses him so often is a good reflection of his comparative value. A reflection that I would trust more than the fans who continue to gripe about this player's level of play.

You watched Bernard Geoffrion. Wow! You must have begun to watch hockey when you were -15 ... Thanks for sharing your long experience. It is very appreciated.

 

[ChesterNimitz]

You watched Bernard Geoffrion. Wow! You must have begun to watch hockey when you were -15 ... Thanks for sharing your long experience. It is very appreciated.

I'm old, and I feel it. But the alternative, as many of my friends now know, is not particularly attractive.

What's really interesting is that my father, who was a noted builder in Montreal, actually built the Boomer's home. My dad used to say that he was a great guy. My father didn't have the same opinion of Scotty Bowman. Let's leave it at that.

 

[HuGo Burner Acc]

Why not? He can gain the zone better than any of these. He shoots as good as RB and a bit worse than Mailoux. He can playmake, and he can stickhandle.

He should 100% be on the PP. None of the guys you mentioned are even close to the NHL.

I agree in the short term. Im with you 100%. But just giving my take on what will probably happen not what should

 

[Team_Spirit]

This reminded me of Guhle.

Must be the hair and the dedication to make the play.

 

[Gillings]

Don’t worry guys, we have our own “Cooley” in Gaiden Chule

 

[Scriptor]

So in other words you find he's a flawless player and should be spared of any critique?

I don’t think he should be traded as many have advanced, I'm a fan of the player and think he brings way more positive than negative to this team.

I just find he's guilty of trying to do too much at times and he needs to find a better balance between being aggressive and knowing when to be aggressive.

Sometimes less is more, he himself has been on record as saying thats something he needs to constantly work on. He tends to over complicate things on the ice when often time, the simple play is the best play.

Seems reasonable to me. I’m not quite sure how you took that post of mine that you quoted as me “complaining”, but it is sensitive times round’ these parts…

No player is perfect, not even McDavid. I'm just saying that Matheson is being overly examined with expectations that aren't even suited for him, especially at this point in the rebuild.

 

[Scriptor]

Im not outraged about everything, just having Slaf in the NHL, passing on Michkov, not having Guhle on the PP and maybe also hanging on to Matheson and Monahan for too long.

Unsure about the Newhook trade.
Oh also passing on Cristall and Firkus, yikes.
The Mesar pick, too.

Thats about it. Are you happy about everything they do ? I wonder what's more realistic, having a weighted view and liking some things or loving everything!

I definitely don't love everything done so far by HuGo or St-Louis, for that matter and, no, the team isn't beyond critiquing.

Every GM will make mistakes. Some moves will appear that way early on and prove not to be so later on, as some moves will appear good on the surface, but develop into something bad over time.

I just find there is too much micro-analysis to hammer points on these boards/discussion forums and it just comes across as blind bias rather than actual critiques.

I guess it's just insecurity from posters who don't actually routinely engage in nuanced views.

Sounds like posters feel they need to pulverize other opinions to establish their own as remotely worthwhile.

Doesn't lead to discussion, but, rather, empty, meaningless arguments.

Social media as therapy. Unfortunately, we don't get paid to treat other posters' insecurities, even if we get dragged into their treatment process.

I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, so don't get personally offended, but it routinely falls within those parameters on fan boards.

 

[Mrb1p]

I definitely don't love everything done so far by HuGo or St-Louis, for that matter and, no, the team isn't beyond critiquing.

Every GM will make mistakes. Some moves will appear that way early on and prove not to be so later on, as some moves will appear good on the surface, but develop into something bad over time.

I just find there is too much micro-analysis to hammer points on these boards/discussion forums and it just comes across as blind bias rather than actual critiques.

I guess it's just insecurity from posters who don't actually routinely engage in nuanced views.

Sounds like posters feel they need to pulverize other opinions to establish their own as remotely worthwhile.

Doesn't lead to discussion, but, rather, empty, meaningless arguments.

Social media as therapy. Unfortunately, we don't get paid to treat other posters' insecurities, even if we get dragged into their treatment process.

I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, so don't get personally offended, but it routinely falls within those parameters on fan boards.

Nothing like a dude telling another dude how he should appreciate a sub-par product.

 

[Scriptor]

Yes the were, in a winning scenario, sure. In a lost season where were trying to develop players, it matters a lot less.

I think most 1Ds should be used 17-18 minutes at ES, 3-4 minutes on PP1 and about 1 or 2 on the PK. I just want to see ES then PP then PK in the time column, just like every other 1D out there.

Theres no reason why Guhle should be on the PK and not Xehkaj and Xehkaj on the PP but not the PK.
Since 2021-2022:
McAvoy plays 3 minutes of pp and 2 of SH.
Dahlin plays 3:19 of PP and 1 of SH.
Makar plays 4 of PP and 2 of SH.
Werenski plays 3:30 of PP and 1:30 of SH.
Heiskanen plays 2:48 and 1:38
Seider plays 3:00 and 2:48
Ekblad plays 3:28 and 2:48
Douhgty plays 3:13 and 2:15
Josi plays 3:28 and 0:47
Luke Hughes plays 3 minutes of PP and none of SH.
Dobson plays 3 of PP and 0:38 of SH.
Fox plays 3:18 and 2:06
Sanderson plays 2:37 and 3:18 (Its gone up since 2023, this year hes at 3:44 of pp and 3:25 of PK.)
Vince Dunn plays 2:33 and 0:35
Hedman plays 3:07 and 1:56 (Sergachev is even)
Hughes plays 3:49 and 1:16
Pietrangelo plays about even 2:25 each
Morrissey plays 3:17 and 35 seconds
Guhle plays 0:32 and 2:15


PK played 4 minutes and 2 minutes of SH over his career with the Habs
Markov played 4:12 and 2:43 over his career with the Habs
Weber played 2:43 and 2:59 over his career with the habs (3:21 and 1:54 with Nashville.)


It makes no sense to develop Guhle like he's Slavin. Hes not Slavin, he has a very potent offensive tool set.


Why do we need someone to replace him in a losing season ? Isn't that a better question ?

I've raised the idea of trading Matheson to Vancouver for Lekkerimaki a 2nd and Myers, Myers could eat up 19 minutes ish and be bad like he is and we wouldn't miss a beat. Savard just went down, who's replacing his 22 minutes a game ? It doesn't matter as much as you think it does.

Unless you think were competing right now, which by all means is a different debate, maybe you need new glasses

"..and be bad like he is ..."

It's not a question of being competitive for the playoffs, or much less a Cup, but having a reasonable D-Corps is, IMO, essential to the development of the younger forwards. Having a veteran D who can handle some of the larger responsibilities also enables younger Ds (even more talented Ds than the veteran) to take their seat in due time and not be rushed unnecessarily.

Your goal must be blind tanking and creating a losing environment more important to you than developing youngsters? If it isn't, it surrounds like.

Nothing like a dude telling another dude how he should appreciate a sub-par product.

Great take. As usual.

 

[Mrb1p]

"..and be bad like he is ..."

It's not a question of being competitive for the playoffs, or much less a Cup, but having a reasonable D-Corps is, IMO, essential to the development of the younger forwards. Having a veteran D who can handle some of the larger responsibilities also enables younger Ds (even more talented Ds than the veteran) to take their seat in due time and not be rushed unnecessarily.

Your goal must be blind tanking and creating a losing environment more important to you than developing youngsters? If it isn't, it surrounds like.

Great take. As usual.

A losing environment doesnt exist, only bad management does. You can surely have loser players like Matthews and Marner, but thats a different thing and also on management to figure out a way to win with them.

Matheson cannot handle the duties hes been given and that should be evident, lol.

The Habs finished 5th last the season prior and last in the league in the other one, what is it, if not a losing environment? All you brought is an erroneous statement that directly clashes with your opinion.

Regardless, Im not interested in this conversation, I have better things to do, enjoy the cheerleading, as youve did with Bergevin.

 

[Scriptor]

A losing environment doesnt exist, only bad management does. You can surely have loser players like Matthews and Marner, but thats a different thing and also on management to figure out a way to win with them.

Matheson cannot handle the duties hes been given and that should be evident, lol.

The Habs finished 5th last the season prior and last in the league in the other one, what is it, if not a losing environment? All you brought is an erroneous statement that directly clashes with your opinion.

Regardless, Im not interested in this conversation, I have better things to do, enjoy the cheerleading, as youve did with Bergevin.

Enjoy bashing everything Hab-related, as you've always done. Your refusal to discuss anything intelligent is definitely honouring you at your fullest.

I would have agreed -- as I've previously stated -- that, ideally, Matheson is better suited for a second pairing role with a shutdown D as a partner, as Petry was better suited for such a role with a similar pairing partner.

What you refuse to acknowledge is context -- ergo all the micro-analysis that just seek to find fault with everything.

Guhle will likely end up being the Habs' first pairing LHD. He's only 21 and coming along fine in the way he has been reared so far. No need to rush him into more responsibilities as they had been forced to do last season because of injuries. It was a stated goal to reduce his exposure to such responsibilities and his ice time this season with a healthy Matheson in the fold.

I agree with this approach, for the long term benefit of Guhle's development.

Next year, or as the season progresses this year, he should get an accrued share of responsibilities. I am much less concerned about the effects on Matheson if he is outmatched or overplayed on some nights. I'm much happier if his increased ice time and prime game situations actually lead to a higher point production that can be parlayed into a greater return via the trade route in a year or two.

I don't see Matheson being a Hab when we are competing for a Cup again (not before 2027-2028, IMO), but I see him playing a valuable role in the meantime, until the final year of his current contract, by which time, IMO, Guhle will have properly matured into a genuine 1st pairing LHD and Matheson should be traded at full value if he stays healthy.

Your refusal to have a discussion with someone who doesn't intrinsically share your views is just admitting you are unable to have a nuanced exchange and need to be reassured that your position isn't flawed by avoiding any dissension.

I agree with some of the things you suggest, but rarely agree with your conclusions that are either lacking in perspective or overly simplistic, usually as a means to justify a disparaging view of the overall situation involving our team, it's players, the management and the owner.

Your posts do not have the quality of a constructive critique. Whining is not that, even if your posts are exemplary in this art form.

 

[Mrb1p]

Enjoy bashing everything Hab-related, as you've always done. Your refusal to discuss anything intelligent is definitely honouring you at your fullest.

I would have agreed -- as I've previously stated -- that, ideally, Matheson is better suited for a second pairing role with a shutdown D as a partner, as Petry was better suited for such a role with a similar pairing partner.

What you refuse to acknowledge is context -- ergo all the micro-analysis that just seek to find fault with everything.

Guhle will likely end up being the Habs' first pairing LHD. He's only 21 and coming along fine in the way he has been reared so far. No need to rush him into more responsibilities as they had been forced to do last season because of injuries. It was a stated goal to reduce his exposure to such responsibilities and his ice time this season with a healthy Matheson in the fold.

I agree with this approach, for the long term benefit of Guhle's development.

Next year, or as the season progresses this year, he should get an accrued share of responsibilities. I am much less concerned about the effects on Matheson if he is outmatched or overplayed on some nights. I'm much happier if his increased ice time and prime game situations actually lead to a higher point production that can be parlayed into a greater return via the trade route in a year or two.

I don't see Matheson being a Hab when we are competing for a Cup again (not before 2027-2028, IMO), but I see him playing a valuable role in the meantime, until the final year of his current contract, by which time, IMO, Guhle will have properly matured into a genuine 1st pairing LHD and Matheson should be traded at full value if he stays healthy.

Your refusal to have a discussion with someone who doesn't intrinsically share your views is just admitting you are unable to have a nuanced exchange and need to be reassured that your position isn't flawed by avoiding any dissension.

I agree with some of the things you suggest, but rarely agree with your conclusions that are either lacking in perspective or overly simplistic, usually as a means to justify a disparaging view of the overall situation involving our team, it's players, the management and the owner.

Your posts do not have the quality of a constructive critique. Whining is not that, even if your posts are exemplary in this art form.

MrB1P: Kaiden Guhle is already one of the best defender in the league, with one of the highest ceiling and should be used as such.
Scriptor: EnjOy HAtiNG eVerYtHiNG hABs RelATeD.

Okay lad, enjoy your day as Ill enjoy mine.

 

[417]

No player is perfect, not even McDavid. I'm just saying that Matheson is being overly examined with expectations that aren't even suited for him, especially at this point in the rebuild.

Agreed he's not in the chair he should be in, but he is. He plays the most minutes, I get that given he plays so much and handles the puck so much, there's going to be times when he turns it over.

He just needs to manage those situations better, that's all.

Other, I don't have an issue with Matheson, he's a very good player when he's playing within himself.

 

[Scriptor]

MrB1P: Kaiden Guhle is already one of the best defender in the league, with one of the highest ceiling and should be used as such.
Scriptor: EnjOy HAtiNG eVerYtHiNG hABs RelATeD.

Okay lad, enjoy your day as Ill enjoy mine.

A little premature, your PR operation to get Guhle into the Hall-of-Fame.

I'm excited he's a Hab, but he's only 21 and isn't half as dominant as you make him out to be yet.

Needs to grow into his body, still, to be more difficult to face and, while he makes the right decisions on most occasions, as with all young players, he needs to find better consistency.

Your insistence that he should be thrown into the ring and left to handle things just shows your failure to understand how he is being handled -- which, IMO, is the more appropriate way.

Your impatience is natural as a fan, but it betrays you are not an NHL coach and lack that experience to see things clearly.

BTW, I'm enjoying my day fine because your take on things doesn't phase me in the least.

I'm just glad you're not running the team. Small blessings in another season where we shouldn't make the playoffs. At least, without you at the rudder, the youngsters will continue to progress.

 

[Jaynki]

I think he has a case as our best player so far this season.

 

[Naslund]

Kind of funny seeing Mrb1p over-praising Guhle after being so down on him when we drafted him. Was never going to be as good as his wonderboy Josh Brook...

Aside from that, Guhle is a good young player who is developing very nicely. Hoping that him and Slafkovsky play a full season this year. Injuries and impatience are the only things that could really derail things with these talented young guys.