Player Discussion Kaapo Kakko

[Harbour Dog]

Yes, that's why I said it doesn't matter. In Wennberg's three years in Seattle his team scored 2.15, 2.36, 2.71 GF60 with Wennberg on the ice. They are great numbers against anyone. 1.75 GF60 is roughly what Ryan Reaves has averaged in his career.

This is a fantastic way to help bridge the understanding gap of exactly how good Kakko is defensively.

 

[SA16]

Well going by what you say shouldn't other teams recognize KKs great play and give us very good trade offers?

Probably not because teams generally overvalue offense and devalue defense from forwards - especially with guys who are perceived as busts because the offense never developed. I wouldn't trade him though. I'd far prefer to re-sign him.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Probably not because teams generally overvalue offense and devalue defense from forwards - especially with guys who are perceived as busts because the offense never developed. I wouldn't trade him though. I'd far prefer to re-sign him.

You don't think it would be unusual that all the professional NHL scouts for 30 plus teams do not see KKs great play?

 

[SA16]

You don't think it would be unusual that all the professional NHL scouts for 30 plus teams do not see KKs great play?

Just look at the contracts around the league for defense first forwards compared to offense first forwards. Guys like Fast get 2.5M. Guys like Strome get 5M.

Here are the salaries of the weaker offense players in the top 10 in Selke votes

Staal 2.9M
Lowry 3.3M

 

[NickyFotiu]

Just look at the contracts around the league for defense first forwards compared to offense first forwards. Guys like Fast get 2.5M. Guys like Strome get 5M.

Well that shows how much teams value them. Fast is a 20-30 point scorer. If Fast was a great player I think NHL teams would value him more.

 

[Peltz]

Just look at the contracts around the league for defense first forwards compared to offense first forwards. Guys like Fast get 2.5M. Guys like Strome get 5M.

Here are the salaries of the weaker offense players in the top 10 in Selke votes

Staal 2.9M
Lowry 3.3M

Lol 5m for Strome!

**looks at Trouba contract**

Nevermind.

 

[SA16]

Well that shows how much teams value them. Fast is a 30 point scorer. If Fast was a great player I think NHL teams would value him more.

Teams are not known for being particularly efficient with how they hand out salaries hence the constant buy outs and cap dumps (with) retention. They always overvalue the one dimensional offensive player and big physical defenseman.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Teams are not known for being particularly efficient with how they hand out salaries hence the constant buy outs and cap dumps (with) retention.

All teams make some salary mistakes but that doesn't mean all are inefficient. No risk no reward. If expecting no salary mistakes than expect no high end. Safe money doesn't make money. With that said contracts are not the only players are valued. If KK and Fast are great players on small contracts other teams would break down doors with trade offers for them.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

You don't think it would be unusual that all the professional NHL scouts for 30 plus teams do not see KKs great play?

It's funny, isn't it?

 

[The New Russian Five]

Really? Because then he should have been that way in pre season too. It wasn’t about his stats, it’s that he didn’t show the improvement people wanted. He trained with the same guy for years in the off season. That trainer said Laf worked hard EVERY off season. It wasn’t that he just decided to work hard last off season. He physically matured, and the coaches acted in a way to boost his CONFIDENCE. Unlike previous coaches.
The bottom line is that it doesn’t matter what physical tools you have if you don’t have the confidence to use them. This is so basic I can’t believe I have to keep saying it.

Pre-season doesn't freaking count. Are you joking with this shit. Any NHL scout will tell you there is very little you can glean from pre-season, let alone 3 games.

And I never said confidence wasn't a factor. He definitely got better and better as the season kept going, and that's definitely because of the confidence. But he had jump in his step from game 1 of the season. Note that Lafreniere has been in the top 6 multiple times in prior years and still did very little with it. The biggest difference this year was his baseline physical abilities. The coaching staff recognized it and were confident he could succeed, and in turn, gave him confidence. But without the baseline physical tools it doesn't matter how confident you are, you aren't going to do much.

Do you actually think that if you staple Kakko to the top line for a whole season, that he's suddenly going to be a 50 point player, without any improvement in his current physical tools?

 

[NickyFotiu]

It's funny, isn't it?

I'm not pushing to trade KK but its illogical to say KK has been playing at a certain level but no other NHL teams professional scouts would see it and value him accordingly imo.

 

[Harbour Dog]

I'm not pushing to trade KK but its illogical to say KK has been playing at a certain level but no other NHL teams professional scouts would see it and value him accordingly imo.

I think we learned from the Vegas expansion draft that teams aren't any better at evaluating talent than attentive fans are. Kakko is exactly the type of player they loaded up on.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

Needed a lot more from him.

Disappointing year

 

[bhamill]

Pre-season doesn't freaking count. Are you joking with this shit. Any NHL scout will tell you there is very little you can glean from pre-season, let alone 3 games.

And I never said confidence wasn't a factor. He definitely got better and better as the season kept going, and that's definitely because of the confidence. But he had jump in his step from game 1 of the season. Note that Lafreniere has been in the top 6 multiple times in prior years and still did very little with it. The biggest difference this year was his baseline physical abilities. The coaching staff recognized it and were confident he could succeed, and in turn, gave him confidence. But without the baseline physical tools it doesn't matter how confident you are, you aren't going to do much.

Do you actually think that if you staple Kakko to the top line for a whole season, that he's suddenly going to be a 50 point player, without any improvement in his current physical tools?

And I have clearly said several times that I’m sure Laf has been putting in the off season work and developing.
Of COURSE pre season counts when you are talking about how a player, especially a young player trying to win a bigger role, looks.
And the detractors were saying he looked EXACTLY the same. No speed, no skill, “his next contract should be a PTO.” Without confidence you will just not see the off season improvements a young player makes. And Lavi went out of his way to give him that. Best decision he made all year was to staple Laf to Bread and live with any growing pains.
As far as Kakko, different players get confidence different ways. I’ve said he’s NEVER going to be on Laf’s level, what I’m saying is with confidence he’ll be a very valuable player. Could I be wrong? Of course I could. But we can’t tell yet. I cannot say that stapling KK to the top line will bring that out, but stapling him to the bottom of the lineup sure won’t… personally I think integrating him into the PK would be a good step.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I think we learned from the Vegas expansion draft that teams aren't any better at evaluating talent than attentive fans are. Kakko is exactly the type of player they loaded up on.

I do not think many players given up in the expansion draft were thought not to have talent. If so Vegas would have passed on them as well. I do not believe that fans are better at evaluating talent than full time scouts. If that was the case teams would just start hiring fans. Fans on this board with their alternative scouts raved about Brandon Pirri, Adam Clendening and Jacob Trouba before they became Rangers.

 

[bhamill]

I'm not pushing to trade KK but it’s illogical to say KK has been playing at a certain level but no other NHL teams professional scouts would see it and value him accordingly imo.

That’s the argument for holding on to him though. We probably aren’t going to get reasonable value for him this off-season. Of course he’s not untouchable, but he’s not a throwaway either.

 

[Atax]

Time to move him for whatever value is left. Feels like the dude is going to end up out of the NHL in a few years. Cant score and doesnt PK. Will be surprised if we even get a 2nd for him.

 

[bhamill]

Just look at the contracts around the league for defense first forwards compared to offense first forwards. Guys like Fast get 2.5M. Guys like Strome get 5M.

Here are the salaries of the weaker offense players in the top 10 in Selke votes

Staal 2.9M
Lowry 3.3M

Fair, but
Lowry 31 years of age.
Eric Staal 39 years of age.

 

[Harbour Dog]

I do not think many players given up in the expansion draft were thought not to have talent. If so Vegas would have passed on them as well. I do not believe that fans are better at evaluating talent than full time scouts. If that was the case teams would just start hiring fans. Fans on this board with their alternative scouts raved about Brandon Pirri, Adam Clendening and Jacob Trouba before they became Rangers.

No, but every player taken by Vegas was handed over by a team that could have protected them. Then a bunch of "bottom six" players had break out seasons when given the opportunity to do so, and they were immediately one of the best teams in the league.

A single attentive fan vs a scout? Sure I'll take the scout. An opinion formed from the discourse of hundreds of attentive fans vs. a few scouts on a team? I bet the fans opinion would end up being right more often in the long term.

 

[SA16]

I do not think many players given up in the expansion draft were thought not to have talent. If so Vegas would have passed on them as well. I do not believe that fans are better at evaluating talent than full time scouts. If that was the case teams would just start hiring fans. Fans on this board with their alternative scouts raved about Brandon Pirri, Adam Clendening and Jacob Trouba before they became Rangers.

The average salary for a scout is very low. I don't think it necessarily attracts the best people.

 

[NickyFotiu]

That’s the argument for holding on to him though. We probably aren’t going to get reasonable value for him this off-season. Of course he’s not untouchable, but he’s not a throwaway either.

Definitely not a throwaway. We should be realistic though. His value is what it is based on his play. In fact ot is probably a bit higher than his actual play just based on draft position.

 

[NickyFotiu]

The average salary for a scout is very low. I don't think it necessarily attracts the best people.

I have seen the fan scouts on this board saying how great Brandon Pirri and Adam Clendening were before we got them.

 

[Albatros]

Time to move him for whatever value is left. Feels like the dude is going to end up out of the NHL in a few years.

In such situation you can give him a cool mil and he'll be fantastic value. Not going to happen though.

 

[Ruggs225]

If i trade him. Its for a young 2nd pair dman, or a top 15 pick. Nothing less.

He is at worst a middle six forward, who still has some potential.

He is by no means a dump like some peoplw think.

 

[Baby Punisher]

Needed a lot more from him.

Disappointing year

It's ANOTHER disappointing year. I have seen enough off the often injured Kappo Kakko. It's not going to happen for him in NY. He should be traded.