Player Discussion Kaapo Kakko

[mas0764]

I wouldn’t move Kakko

He really does need to play with talent though. He’s a compliment winger imo

You look at a guy like Mark Stone, he produces 30-40pts 5v5. Kakko had an off year but he also was playing with bad centers for a large portion of the season. He needs a Tro or Chytil imo.

Hopefully he can work hard this offseason and improve his first few steps which will go a long way

Yeah it seems clear he's not the "neck and neck with Jack Hughes," prospect he was touted as coming out.

That doesn't mean he still can't be a first line or top 6 caliber player. He's just not gonna be the main offensive producer on a top 6 line. I think he can get to a spot where he's helping other offensive-driving players.

He has to get to a spot where he's not killing offense. But he's been jostled around and injured so much, and has never played extensively with talented players.

Sorry, that matters. Lafreniere didn't take off till he got stapled to Panarin and Trocheck for an extended time. I get that you have to "earn it," but sometimes you also need coddling for development, and Kakko has rarely gotten it.

Re-evaluating Kakko you have to set your sights on 25-25-50 with good defense. Given that he was already 18-22-40 a year ago at age 22, that goal isn't out of the question.

I get that this year year he's been so bad offensively that you'd have to force feed him minutes to get to 40 points and that anyone can do it with a big enough role (Barclay Goodrow scored 33 points two years ago), so yes I agree Kakko has to get better.

But at 22 he put some good work on film. At 22, Chris Kreider was 17-20-37. I think a Kreider like caliber player, at least before Kreider's late-career surge to 40 goal scorer, is still in there. I mean the 25-25-50 Kreider. That caliber player. A support scorer in the top 6.

Now obviously that means he's not untouchable anymore. Can you flip him for a young up and coming possible first pair defender? Could you package him and a first if it meant you move up enough to get another Gabe Perrault caliber forward? I'm listening.

But I wouldn't cut bait or dump him for a rental or trade him for less than a top 6 caliber young forward with great upside. Otherwise I think they should tweak their approach and keep trying.

 

[dshea19]

Every line he plays with this season has great underlying metrics and doesn't produce results. We are also in the midst of the second playoff round where the underlying metrics for the team are less than the results on the scoreboard. Results are ultimately the bottom line. The real challenge with Kakko is the sunken cost fallacy temptation. "Laf took off, maybe Kakko will next?" Very possibly, or they hold onto to him too long and he loses his value and what you can get in a return. I don't know what the answer is, but right now Kakko is the Hurricanes of players. Lots of good metrics but ultimately isn't getting the job done. If the offense never comes, I think you can improve on him for the 3rd line with someone like Berard. He is a better skater, better forechecker, arguably better hockey IQ. If Kakko can get the offense going, then it is a win. I think a very telling thing is that he has every opportunity to be an absolute difference maker in the playoffs right now and he is largely invisible. He is doing a lot of little things well, but he comes off as a competent bottom 6 player, not a budding top forward. He could be/have been the X factor that teams have no answer for because they are focusing on the top 6. Now is really the ideal time to show who he is...and I am afraid that is exactly what is happening. I am leaning towards getting the best offer for him this offseason and running. Maybe he does a Kreider and gets it together in his late 20's, but you are gambling in either direction. The safest bet is to get something you know you can utilize vs hoping for some change that hasn't been hinted at yet. It really is a tough call.

 

[bhamill]

The problem is that he's unfortunately done nothing to even warrant getting a bigger role. It's like a chicken or the egg scenario, I guess.

That's fair, but before they trade this guy they better be sure... that means giving him a bigger role and just sticking with him there for 30 games or so, like they did with Laf, to see what he can do with it. If he didn't get injured last year I think they would have. They should next season. Hopefully they don't trade him before they KNOW what he is unless they get get an offer they can't say no to...

 

[SA16]

Every line he plays with this season has great underlying metrics and doesn't produce results. We are also in the midst of the second playoff round where the underlying metrics for the team are less than the results on the scoreboard. Results are ultimately the bottom line. The real challenge with Kakko is the sunken cost fallacy temptation. "Laf took off, maybe Kakko will next?" Very possibly, or they hold onto to him too long and he loses his value and what you can get in a return. I don't know what the answer is, but right now Kakko is the Hurricanes of players. Lots of good metrics but ultimately isn't getting the job done. If the offense never comes, I think you can improve on him for the 3rd line with someone like Berard. He is a better skater, better forechecker, arguably better hockey IQ. If Kakko can get the offense going, then it is a win. I think a very telling thing is that he has every opportunity to be an absolute difference maker in the playoffs right now and he is largely invisible. He is doing a lot of little things well, but he comes off as a competent bottom 6 player, not a budding top forward. He could be/have been the X factor that teams have no answer for because they are focusing on the top 6. Now is really the ideal time to show who he is...and I am afraid that is exactly what is happening. I am leaning towards getting the best offer for him this offseason and running. Maybe he does a Kreider and gets it together in his late 20's, but you are gambling in either direction. The safest bet is to get something you know you can utilize vs hoping for some change that hasn't been hinted at yet. It really is a tough call.

Every line he plays with has produced results. They just produce boring results of low GF and low GA. The net result is no different than lots of goals scored and lots of goals allowed.

 

[mas0764]

The thing about trading Kakko is that if it's for a second, or seconds, that's basically nothing. The near certain best outcome is Will Cuylle. Sure you find a Sebastian Aho in the second sometimes, but you find a Hall of Fame Swedish Goalie in the 7th round sometimes too, but that's just winning the lottery.

If the overwhelmingly most likely "best" outcome is Will Cuylle, Kakko is already that.

You keep Kakko unless it's for something clearly better. A young top 4 D with first pair potential, an underachieving top 6 center prospect swap out, a package to trade up in the first to get another Gabe Perrault, etc.

 

[Cuckoo4Kakko]

Every line he plays with this season has great underlying metrics and doesn't produce results. We are also in the midst of the second playoff round where the underlying metrics for the team are less than the results on the scoreboard. Results are ultimately the bottom line. The real challenge with Kakko is the sunken cost fallacy temptation. "Laf took off, maybe Kakko will next?" Very possibly, or they hold onto to him too long and he loses his value and what you can get in a return. I don't know what the answer is, but right now Kakko is the Hurricanes of players. Lots of good metrics but ultimately isn't getting the job done. If the offense never comes, I think you can improve on him for the 3rd line with someone like Berard. He is a better skater, better forechecker, arguably better hockey IQ. If Kakko can get the offense going, then it is a win. I think a very telling thing is that he has every opportunity to be an absolute difference maker in the playoffs right now and he is largely invisible. He is doing a lot of little things well, but he comes off as a competent bottom 6 player, not a budding top forward. He could be/have been the X factor that teams have no answer for because they are focusing on the top 6. Now is really the ideal time to show who he is...and I am afraid that is exactly what is happening. I am leaning towards getting the best offer for him this offseason and running. Maybe he does a Kreider and gets it together in his late 20's, but you are gambling in either direction. The safest bet is to get something you know you can utilize vs hoping for some change that hasn't been hinted at yet. It really is a tough call.

There were MULTIPLE pro Laf people on this site before the season saying "Kakko took off, maybe Laf will next?"

I'd rather Kakko be a bust here than be a breakout somewhere else. That's how I will feel about our prospects no matter who they are. Not gonna get rid of him unless it's worthwhile.

 

[mas0764]

There were MULTIPLE pro Laf people on this site before the season saying "Kakko took off, maybe Laf will next?"

I'd rather Kakko be a bust here than be a breakout somewhere else. That's how I will feel about our prospects no matter who they are. Not gonna get rid of him unless it's worthwhile.

The narration not even one year ago was that Kakko had arrived, was about to have a 50+ point campaign, and that Laf was trade bait.

 

[LOFIN]

I think he will be traded offseason, and that's because he probably himself wants to have an opportunity somewhere else. But if he wants to stay, you absolutely keep him because his contract ought to be cheap. He is a useful player.

But we'll cross that bridge when we get there. There's a Cup to be won first.

 

[dshea19]

There were MULTIPLE pro Laf people on this site before the season saying "Kakko took off, maybe Laf will next?"

I'd rather Kakko be a bust here than be a breakout somewhere else. That's how I will feel about our prospects no matter who they are. Not gonna get rid of him unless it's worthwhile.

Depending on what kind of offers are out there, that may well be the best option. I have no idea what the best path forward is. I would need to know the options on the table to have an opinion on what the best move is. If the best option is to keep him as a solid top 9 forward, then you do it and don't look back. It really just depends on how other teams value him. I am in agreement with some that draft picks are not worth the trade. Keep a known quantity over a potential nothing.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Depending on what kind of offers are out there, that may well be the best option. I have no idea what the best path forward is. I would need to know the options on the table to have an opinion on what the best move is. If the best option is to keep him as a solid top 9 forward, then you do it and don't look back. It really just depends on how other teams value him. I am in agreement with some that draft picks are not worth the trade. Keep a known quantity over a potential nothing.

The thing is he does positive things.
95% of the time he’s a really positive defensive player, and is good at forechecking, even with his lack of foot speed.

 

[haohmaru]

I’m not cutting bait with Kakko just like I didn’t want to trade LaF. Too young, too talented to give away for what you’ll get - next to nothing. Put him in a position to succeed next year and don’t look back the whole year.

 

[dshea19]

The thing is he does positive things.
95% of the time he’s a really positive defensive player, and is good at forechecking, even with his lack of foot speed.

All of that is true. The question is this: Does another team value him to the point where they will give a very enticing offer that you wouldn't normally get for a solid 3rd line winger? He does good things, but you can find players to be good defensively and forecheck. If someone is offering a package equivalent to the value of a top 6 player and he isn't producing at that level, you have to at least consider it. I'm not saying that he needs to be traded at all. I am saying that this is a difficult situation considering there is no real knowledge of what kind of player Kakko is going to be. The conundrum arises if another team is offering something that could be hard to turn down. Berard may end up being a better potential fit for the 3rd line than Kakko due to his speed and skating. Time will tell and I hope Kakko breaks out and makes all of this conversation moot. It would be far better for the Rangers if he pulls a Laf next year and takes off. Depending on the potential offers out there, this could be a really big and difficult decision for them to make. I would be really curious to know what the internal management thoughts on Kakko are.

 

[IDvsEGO]

All of that is true. The question is this: Does another team value him to the point where they will give a very enticing offer that you wouldn't normally get for a solid 3rd line winger? He does good things, but you can find players to be good defensively and forecheck. If someone is offering a package equivalent to the value of a top 6 player and he isn't producing at that level, you have to at least consider it. I'm not saying that he needs to be traded at all. I am saying that this is a difficult situation considering there is no real knowledge of what kind of player Kakko is going to be. The conundrum arises if another team is offering something that could be hard to turn down. Berard may end up being a better potential fit for the 3rd line than Kakko due to his speed and skating. Time will tell and I hope Kakko breaks out and makes all of this conversation moot. It would be far better for the Rangers if he pulls a Laf next year and takes off. Depending on the potential offers out there, this could be a really big and difficult decision for them to make. I would be really curious to know what the internal management thoughts on Kakko are.

I think sykora is the better fit but yeah.
Berard is too small last I saw.

But you’ve got a valid point.
I think the offense can be there with him, and last seasons 40 Points was a good sign.

The problem is that he does go quite easily, when he’s engaged and physical he’s fantastic.
When he’s passive, he’s not.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Think he needs a bigger role to ever be a good fit. It is just a different job description between (a) a role where you have to do as much as possible with little to work with and (b) be someone that plays with the puck on his stick on the PP, on a scoring line with more regular ice time, and so forth.

He can definitely take steps on a 3rd or 4th line, but if we are waiting for him to set the world on fire 5 on 5 in a smaller role we are waiting in vain. But that doesn't mean that he couldn't break out -- if he improved as much as he can and also gets a bigger role. Kakko is 23, history is full of examples of players who had done very little at the age of 23, in leagues below the NHL, that then break out later on.

What I think is the most problematic is that while Kakko of course has a lot of natural talent, there is always a risk that if a player like him plays in a smaller role for several years, when they get a shot in a bigger role they are not just prepared to take it on, while another 24 y/o who had played outside of the NHL running a PP every game might be able to do it better.

You are right. Some guys break out later than others. With that said the league has been littered with guys with great talent that never broke out. Look at Rozi on our own team. Great skater. Good shot. Can even handle the puck. Does KK have better talent than Rozi? What is holding Rozi back?

 

[The New Russian Five]

Laf's breakout can be attributed to him working on his lower body foot speed in the off-season. He is much faster than he was prior seasons. Kakko for some reason can't seem to get any faster. If he can devote himself this off-season to just getting faster, he will make the jump. Problem is, with such a deep playoff run he isn't going to get a lot of time to train.

 

[duhmetreE]

Laf's breakout can be attributed to him working on his lower body foot speed in the off-season. He is much faster than he was prior seasons. Kakko for some reason can't seem to get any faster. If he can devote himself this off-season to just getting faster, he will make the jump. Problem is, with such a deep playoff run he isn't going to get a lot of time to train.

Could also try putting Kakko with Panarin and Tro. Maybe Laffy has graduated and can help carry the puck with Zibs.

 

[The New Russian Five]

Could also try putting Kakko with Panarin and Tro. Maybe Laffy has graduated and can help carry the puck with Zibs.

Again, I don't think Kakko's issue is his line mates. It's his speed. Once he fixes that, he will start looking like Laffy is right now.

 

[duhmetreE]

Again, I don't think Kakko's issue is his line mates. It's his speed. Once he fixes that, he will start looking like Laffy is right now.

He would benefit playing with a center/linemates that can carry the puck imo

yes, improving his explosiveness will help in every aspect. He also needs to get off the boards and attack the middle

 

[The New Russian Five]

He would benefit playing with a center/linemates that can carry the puck imo

yes, improving his explosiveness will help in every aspect. He also needs to get off the boards and attack the middle

The Panarin-Trockeck line is very effective because they score off the rush. Kakko is probably the worst player on the rush, because... he doesn't have foot speed. Putting him on a line with those two is a bandaid. You need to go to the source of the problem.

 

[JCProdigy]

His offensive output for a former 2OA pick is disappointing.

His offensive output is fine for a middle six player (last year and after he came back from injury this year).

Goal of a hockey game is to score more goals than your opponent. Over the past four years, when Kakko is on the ice, that objective is consistently met.

NHL is a capped league so getting rid of a net positive player while they are cost-controlled is how you end up eventually overpaying (in draft capital and money) for somebody else who ends up offering the same in the end while hamstringing your franchise's future.

 

[bicboi64]

Sens fan here, after y'all win the cup (do it for Zibby), would you guys consider Kakko for Chychrun? Some draft picks thrown here and there to balance it out?

 

[NickyFotiu]

Sens fan here, after y'all win the cup (do it for Zibby), would you guys consider Kakko for Chychrun? Some draft picks thrown here and there to balance it out?

KK aside if we were to trade for a Dman we might want a RH Dman since we have Jones as our 7th Dman.

 

[bhamill]

Again, I don't think Kakko's issue is his line mates. It's his speed. Once he fixes that, he will start looking like Laffy is right now.

Laf worked on his skating every off season. And yes it did pay off. But don’t discount confidence being the biggest difference. “He finally worked on his skating this off-season” is a false narrative. In pre season people were still screaming bust and saying he looked no different than last year. Then regular season started and Lavi stapled him to Pan’s line. Laf got confidence from it and took off. Suddenly he could do everything faster. Because that’s what confidence does for a young player. He didn’t do a whole lot of work on his skating between pre season and regular season, it was confidence.

 

[mas0764]

Laf worked on his skating every off season. And yes it did pay off. But don’t discount confidence being the biggest difference. “He finally worked on his skating this off-season” is a false narrative. In pre season people were still screaming bust and saying he looked no different than last year. Then regular season started and Lavi stapled him to Pan’s line. Laf got confidence from it and took off. Suddenly he could do everything faster. Because that’s what confidence does for a young player. He didn’t do a whole lot of work on his skating between pre season and regular season, it was confidence.

It was at least in part confidence.

 

[bhamill]

It was at least in part confidence.

Right. I’m not discounting the off season work he put in, but it clearly wasn’t that simple.