Player Discussion Kaapo Kakko

[LOFIN]

You cannot criticize “not in position to succeed” when he’s playing PP1 and first line mins. You can’t hand a player more than that.

he should be taking advantage of this opportunity with Panarin out and he looks awful.

lafreniere on the other hand has looked very good with Panarin out

If you put Pavel Datsuyk in front of the net on the PP, can you say he's in a position to succeed?

And yes, Kakko is not Datsuyk and probably never will be. But he is a playmaker, not a guy who should be shovelling in pucks from the middle.

But I agree, he should do better with the minutes given. At least 5v5.

 

[SA16]

If you put Pavel Datsuyk in front of the net on the PP, can you say he's in a position to succeed?

And yes, Kakko is not Datsuyk and probably never will be. But he is a playmaker, not a guy who should be shovelling in pucks from the middle.

But I agree, he should do better with the minutes given. At least 5v5.

He's not in front of the net. He's in the slot. Tons of good players succeed in that role. Point, Scheifele, Bergeron, Zibanejad, Kadri to name a few.

 

[LOFIN]

He's not in front of the net. He's in the slot. Tons of good players succeed in that role. Point, Scheifele, Bergeron, Zibanejad, Kadri to name a few.

Sure they do. But Kakko is not a player like them. We are coming back to the fact that are trying to force players become a player they have not been previously in the careers. Kakko has a poor shot, we all know that. So why is he in the slot?

 

[DanielBrassard]

He's not in front of the net. He's in the slot. Tons of good players succeed in that role. Point, Scheifele, Bergeron, Zibanejad, Kadri to name a few.

To be fair with the way the Rangers run their PP he's not really in a position to shoot off the pass, not like he actually would if they did but he's not being utilized in the bumper properly.

 

[SA16]

Sure they do. But Kakko is not a player like them. We are coming back to the fact that are trying to force players become a player they have not been previously in the careers. Kakko has a poor shot, we all know that. So why is he in the slot?

You don't need a great shot from there. You just need to get the shot off quickly and accurately. He would need a better shot if he played on the right wall than if he plays in the middle.

 

[LOFIN]

You don't need a great shot from there. You just need to get the shot off quickly and accurately. He would need a better shot if he played on the right wall than if he plays in the middle.

I disagree. He has looked very good on PP on the right side whenever the 2PP has actually managed to get time to settle down.

But in all honesty, this is nitpicking and at this moment he has no excuses to play like he has for the last stretch. That's on himself.

 

[hockeyplayer999]

10 years from now people will still be making the same excuse for kaako and Laf. People will not admit they are not that good. First season kaako was a rookie. He will light it up next year Second season oh it’s only his second season wait till next year and he will be a star. Third season. He is only in his third season next year he will break out. Every year will be the same excuse just new season.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

10 years from now people will still be making the same excuse for kaako and Laf. People will not admit they are not that good. First season kaako was a rookie. He will light it up next year Second season oh it’s only his second season wait till next year and he will be a star. Third season. He is only in his third season next year he will break out. Every year will be the same excuse just new season.

Who the f*** is Kaako?

 

[Synergy27]

Both Laf and Kakko have an uphill battle ahead of them because of their skating. They are not good enough skaters. There are very few top offensive players in this league who aren’t top tier skaters.

A game like tonight amplifies it. Zegras, and for f***’s sake Drysdale, look like much more dynamic offensive players because they can skate better than everyone else. It’s such a critical skill in today’s league.

 

[LOFIN]

Both Laf and Kakko have an uphill battle ahead of them because of their skating. They are not good enough skaters. There are very few top offensive players in this league who aren’t top tier skaters.

A game like tonight amplifies it. Zegras, and for f***’s sake Drysdale, look like much more dynamic offensive players because they can skate better than everyone else. It’s such a critical skill in today’s league.

The good thing is, skating can be improved.

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

Despite the assist tonight I thought Kakko was terrible. He's still way too weak on the puck and his first step with the puck is non existent. The way opposing players close in on him when he gets the puck is killing whatever time and space he has essentially every time he touches the puck. He has not yet been able to adapt to the North American game and the smaller ice, it's blatantly obvious.

That being said, I'm still not worried about him. But I think we would be lucky to get 25-25 a year out of KK until he hits his mid 20s or later, kind of like Kreiders development. Unfortunate for a 2OA, but I think this is kind of what he is. A good top 6 player for us in the long term, but far from generational or a perennial superstar

 

[CLW]

Despite the assist tonight I thought Kakko was terrible. He's still way too weak on the puck and his first step with the puck is non existent. The way opposing players close in on him when he gets the puck is killing whatever time and space he has essentially every time he touches the puck. He has not yet been able to adapt to the North American game and the smaller ice, it's blatantly obvious.

That being said, I'm still not worried about him. But I think we would be lucky to get 25-25 a year out of KK until he hits his mid 20s or later, kind of like Kreiders development. Unfortunate for a 2OA, but I think this is kind of what he is. A good top 6 player for us in the long term, but far from generational or a perennial superstar

You mean the kid who set up Zib for three glorious chances, including one goal, who almost scored himself and sprung Barron on a two on one etc. LOL

 

[ThirdEye]

He needs to start believing in himself. When he does he’s borderline dominant.

His skating has improved but it’s still just average. I don’t agree though that’s what’s holding him back. It’s indecisiveness and overthinking

Also, lack of PP time will continue to hold the kids back. They’re not getting the confidence boost a lot of young players get by becoming fixtures on there. Unfortunately unless Strome is let go that won’t change because they ain’t overtaking any of the other guys on there.

 

[WojtekWolski86]

10 years from now people will still be making the same excuse for kaako and Laf. People will not admit they are not that good. First season kaako was a rookie. He will light it up next year Second season oh it’s only his second season wait till next year and he will be a star. Third season. He is only in his third season next year he will break out. Every year will be the same excuse just new season.

And people still haven't learned that each player is different and no one progresses on the same linear path.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

What are we supposed to do as fans? Give up hope? KK was the highest draft pick this team has seen, in like forever. Ditto for Laf.

We can either try to look for positives and say he will develop with time and hopefully get there one day - or be inpatient, nitpick his game and settle on the fact that he will never live up to his draft position.

Regardless of either stance, its not like the Rangers had any other realistic choices at #2 in 2019 or #1 in 2020. They were the consensus picks.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

What are we supposed to do as fans? Give up hope? KK was the highest draft pick this team has seen, in like forever. Ditto for Laf.

We can either try to look for positives and say he will develop with time and hopefully get there one day - or be inpatient, nitpick his game and settle on the fact that he will never live up to his draft position.

Regardless of either stance, its not like the Rangers had any other realistic choices at #2 in 2019 or #1 in 2020. They were the consensus picks.

Yup. Can't blame scouting or drafting for these ones.

 

[IDvsEGO]

He needs to start believing in himself. When he does he’s borderline dominant.

His skating has improved but it’s still just average. I don’t agree though that’s what’s holding him back. It’s indecisiveness and overthinking

Also, lack of PP time will continue to hold the kids back. They’re not getting the confidence boost a lot of young players get by becoming fixtures on there. Unfortunately unless Strome is let go that won’t change because they ain’t overtaking any of the other guys on there.

Kakkos skating is absolutely "fine" for the type of offensive game he plays in the offensive zone.
He actually relies on defenseman closing a gap on him, and using his edges to gain space.
He has moves when he has tons of space, but what sets him apart from alot of players is that he does better in heavy pressure.

The issue is his neutral zone speed with the puck, if he focuses on his burst and acceleration (not his top end as thats likely not changing), he'll get through the neutral zone faster and be able to do a little bit more with it.

He also needs to be used on the power play to his benefit, not just fitting in a spot because someone else is hurt.
Kakko was playing in the slot on the PP, even though thats not his spot. Laf would do fantastic in that spot, because he can rip the puck.
Kakko needs to be on that left bumper position because he needs to have possession of the puck to be effective, he's not a one touch player.

 

[CupSeeker]

You mean the kid who set up Zib for three glorious chances, including one goal, who almost scored himself and sprung Barron on a two on one etc. LOL

Exactly. Less than a minute into the game he put one on a platter for Zib and Stolarz stopped him. if that goes in does the perception change? He made the play, Zib didn't finish; at least not on that one.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

Yup. Can't blame scouting or drafting for these ones.

So the next thing is for fans to get on the Rangers franchise for failing to develop top prospects.

What evidence can we bring to the table in regards to these two players? We dont have enough day to day insight to speak on it. You want to get on Quinn for how he managed them in his time? Fine. But he isn't here any more.

This team provides more to each individual player off the ice than almost every other franchise in the league. The only possible issue there is if they are coddled too much.

To me, it's mostly about the makeup of the roster with star forwards taking the top PP time, but I really can't point to an organizational issue. Fox has taken off. Miller has had a fantastic development, as has Lindgren. Igor transitioned seamlessly.

It is what it is. I'll add Chytil to this as well. How much better would these three players be on any other team in the league? Other than some more PP time maybe affecting their numbers, not much imo. They are what they are and they will develop into what they will be.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

So the next thing is for fans to get on the Rangers franchise for failing to develop top prospects.

What evidence can we bring to the table in regards to these two players? We dont have enough day to day insight to speak on it. You want to get on Quinn for how he managed them in his time? Fine. But he isn't here any more.

This team provides more to each individual player off the ice than almost every other franchise in the league. The only possible issue there is if they are coddled too much.

To me, it's mostly about the makeup of the roster with star forwards taking the top PP time, but I really can't point to an organizational issue. Fox has taken off. Miller has had a fantastic development, as has Lindgren. Igor transitioned seamlessly.

It is what it is. I'll add Chytil to this as well. How much better would these three players be on any other team in the league? Other than some more PP time maybe affecting their numbers, not much imo. They are what they are and they will develop into what they will be.

This isn't true. They pay for everything despite players getting a per diem, which is nice but also not unique. But this organisation doesn't have the same approach as for instance the Maple Leafs. There was an interesting article about Meg Popovic on The Athletic which I have shared before.

The main concern that has been echoed by several people in or close to the organisation is that they treat players like assets, rather than treating them like humans. I'm just relaying what I've been told here. Whatever it is, it needs to be fixed. We can't go through a rebuild and expect to win a Cup if our 1st rounders aren't contributing to the level they are expected to.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

This isn't true. They pay for everything despite players getting a per diem, which is nice but also not unique. But this organisation doesn't have the same approach as for instance the Maple Leafs. There was an interesting article about Meg Popovic on The Athletic which I have shared before.

The main concern that has been echoed by several people in or close to the organisation is that they treat players like assets, rather than treating them like humans. I'm just relaying what I've been told here. Whatever it is, it needs to be fixed. We can't go through a rebuild and expect to win a Cup if our 1st rounders aren't contributing to the level they are expected to.

I'm talking mainly about top-notch facilities, nutrition, off-season training, travel amenities, access to world class whatever you want in the capital of the world and its surrounding areas...

I can't speak to how they are treated as an individual entity. If what you say is the case, that is discouraging and should be addressed.

But how have other young players like Fox, Miller, Lindgren, Shesty, etc all have succeeded in their development? Not to mention others in the past? Why are we just citing this stuff for Kakko, Laf, Chytil, Kravy, Andersson, etc? Why would they treat forwards any differently?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I'm talking mainly about top-notch facilities, nutrition, off-season training, travel amenities, access to world class whatever you want in the capital of the world and its surrounding areas...

I can't speak to how they are treated as an individual entity. If what you say is the case, that is discouraging and should be addressed.

But how have other young players like Fox, Miller, Lindgren, Shesty, etc all have succeeded in their development? Not to mention others in the past? Why are we just citing this stuff for Kakko, Laf, Chytil, Kravy, Andersson, etc? Why would they treat forwards any differently?

The difference is that all those guys developed somewhere else for a couple of years before joining the Rangers or Wolf Pack:

2 years:
Miller
Staal
Stepan
Lindgren
Callahan
Dubinsky

3 years:
Kreider
Fox
Buchnevich
Skjei
Fast
McDonagh

4 years:
Hayes
Vesey

5 years:
Shestyorkin
Lundqvist
Hagelin
Fast

The difference between an 18-year old and a player in his early 20s is huge at that age. And I think a lot of people understimate that.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

The difference is that all those guys developed somewhere else for a couple of years before joining the Rangers or Wolf Pack:

2 years:
Miller
Staal
Stepan
Lindgren
Callahan
Dubinsky

3 years:
Kreider
Fox
Buchnevich
Skjei
Fast
McDonagh

4 years:
Hayes
Vesey

5 years:
Shestyorkin
Lundqvist
Hagelin
Fast

The difference between an 18-year old and a player in his early 20s is huge at that age. And I think a lot of people understimate that.

I see your point.

However, they brought in Quinn who is well known for working well with youngsters, right?. His pre-development worked out just fine with Jack Eichel. Wasn't Kravstov given plenty of time developing in Russia as well? He's still there in fact. It's hard for me to be sold on this idea that the Rangers are doing something to screw up only the extremely young. Everyone develops at a different rate.

 

[IDvsEGO]

I see your point.

However, they brought in Quinn who is well known for working well with youngsters, right?. His pre-development worked out just fine with Jack Eichel. Wasn't Kravstov given plenty of time developing in Russia as well? He's still there in fact. It's hard for me to be sold on this idea that the Rangers are doing something to screw up only the extremely young. Everyone develops at a different rate.

A serious question is was Quinn well known for working with youngsters? He was the head coach of a major college program, his job was 90% recruiting.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I see your point.

However, they brought in Quinn who is well known for working well with youngsters, right?. His pre-development worked out just fine with Jack Eichel. Wasn't Kravstov given plenty of time developing in Russia as well? He's still there in fact. It's hard for me to be sold on this idea that the Rangers are doing something to screw up only the extremely young. Everyone develops at a different rate.

Was he? Or was he a guy who just recruited the best talent every year and still fell short?

Eichel, Keller, Tkachuk, Fabbro, Oettinger etc. If they really wanted a development coach, they should have hired Madigan, Leaman, Carvel, Bazin for instance. Those are coaches who turn late rounders and undrafted kids into NHL players. That's development.

Also, Kravtsov came over after 1 year and the issues started right away with him being called a quitter at age 19 by the assistant GM.