Player Discussion Kaapo Kakko

[NickyFotiu]

People want to call him a bust. People want to compare him to stars. People want to blame coaches. All I can say is there is no way to know what we have yet but he is going to have to show something this season or next. This will be his 4th season. If guys like Oth or Cylle pass him then he will probably not stay a Ranger next year. I hope he realizes that he really needs to step it up this upcoming season. I hope he works really hard in this offseason and rewards everyone with at least a 20-20 season.

 

[Off Sides]

Before anyone gets too upset with low production, should it happen again with any of the non PP forwards,

Last regular season

91 forwards had 40 or more even points.

50 forwards had 50 or more even points.

I'd love to see it happen, yet my expectations for non PP forwards (or those who get the last 30 seconds of clean up) are set a little lower.

 

[Chaels Arms]

They could, but they won't, make it more like a top 9 where those players get about equal amounts of ice time. Like if some majority of a line plays the PP or PK the others get a little more 5on5 time.

They have 3 LWs, 3 centers, and lots of RW candidates, I don't see why, other than stubbornness, they can't make a top 9 in earnest and just reduce the 4th lines ice time as they are not going to likely be very good anyway.

This makes boatloads of sense but I don't see Gallant doing it. It made lots of sense to go this route in the playoffs as well with Panarin getting hammered at even strength and the kid line doing well but he still never did it.

 

[bleedblue94]

Holy moly. Where did I say you said I was complaining, I merely stated that I am not complaining after you brought up the complaining... hahaha.
You think he didn't improve in the playoffs? Fine. We disagree.
You think 6'3 205 isn't big? Fine. We disagree. (And when he actually is mature I'd expect 215.) He's sure not small.
Yes I think his pre draft game did somewhat rely on size and strength. You disagree. Fine.
You think it's not a strength game, using your body to shield the puck or get to tight areas unless you are also throwing hits? Fine. We disagree.
I think he will get more confidence than he had in a season he started at 20 years old. You seem to think he won't. Fine. we disagree.
Hahaha.
I don't care if we don't agree. We are both speculating and we will get to see what happens starting in a couple of short months.
This has been fun. Anything else you want to disagree on? Hahaha.
In all seriousness, I'm clearly giving MY opinions, I'm not expecting you or anyone else to share all of them. But if anyone expects me to just accept THEIR opinion that Kakko is a bust and likely never more than a third liner that is not going to pan out

"I'm not complaining about ANYTHING, including his treatment by the team, I think he's going to be fine."

A defense doesnt exist unless you are defending from something, right?
(maybe just chalk this up to stupidity by both of us reading and interpreting message board stuff ha)

I dont think he really improved in the playoffs, i think he was the same player that he has been showing spurts of acceptable play but generally being moved off the puck and playing a finesse game at the time of the year that requires the grit. laffy and chytil carried that line during the honeymoon period of the playoffs.

his size to me is in line with acceptable norms for modern day athletes. talking about size slowing development doesnt really apply to the kids 5'10"-6'3" as much as it use to bc those are the sizes for a lot of these kids now, it's normal, unless they go through a sudden growth spurt and are adjusting to it. that isnt the case with kakko. these kids are doing all sort of training that involves (directly or indirectly) body awareness so you rarely have the awkward gangly kid coming in who doesnt have a sense for his body. the exception to that are your obvious ones like a chara, but i struggle seeing stuff about kakko's size as to why he is struggling. there are younger and bigger players excelling in the league. this seems to me like another excuse for him. if he was in an awkward growth state with his body then he shouldnt have been in the league in D+1 and he should be growing out of that three years later. i just havent seen growth in his game, he looks like the same player during his rookie year.

as for confidence i think he needs to be actually excelling at something to gain the confidence. what has he excelled at? you dont just get confident bc you are older, you get confident bc you do better. plenty of old people are super lacking in confidence. professional athletes without confidence are damned, you have to have the FU i am better confidence to feed the beast inside. i just havent seen that with him. what in his game breeds confidence at this point?

i have never called kakko a bust (that term is used so stupidly and it doesnt apply) but he is absolutely a disappointment. he should be an nhl player for a long time but he may very well not be the caliper of nhl player that gets picked at 2oa, especially in this day and age of enhanced scrutiny of picks. it's funny bc he was the obvious 2oa pick at the time so it isnt revisionist or complaining about the pick. i am looking strictly at what his body of work is today since he has been drafted. i just havent seen anything to really get excited about for what we hoped to be an impact player. if you are happy with a complimentary player than that is another lens to view him through, but my expectations were to see him grow into an impact player and three years in i just havent seen any growth heading in that direction. that isnt aimed solely at production stats, i dont much care about just the production right now, but what i see just doesnt scream impact player. it is all moral victories and defending his circumstances. i hope that changes this year and he starts to go beast in his play

 

[Off Sides]

This makes boatloads of sense but I don't see Gallant doing it. It made lots of sense to go this route in the playoffs as well with Panarin getting hammered at even strength and the kid line doing well but he still never did it.

I know, which is why I do not think it will happen. Even Goodrow they do not really play at center, he could be a RW in the top 9 if people are not jazzed abut Blais.

.

 

[bhamill]

"I'm not complaining about ANYTHING, including his treatment by the team, I think he's going to be fine."

A defense doesnt exist unless you are defending from something, right?
(maybe just chalk this up to stupidity by both of us reading and interpreting message board stuff ha)

I dont think he really improved in the playoffs, i think he was the same player that he has been showing spurts of acceptable play but generally being moved off the puck and playing a finesse game at the time of the year that requires the grit. laffy and chytil carried that line during the honeymoon period of the playoffs.

his size to me is in line with acceptable norms for modern day athletes. talking about size slowing development doesnt really apply to the kids 5'10"-6'3" as much as it use to bc those are the sizes for a lot of these kids now, it's normal, unless they go through a sudden growth spurt and are adjusting to it. that isnt the case with kakko. these kids are doing all sort of training that involves (directly or indirectly) body awareness so you rarely have the awkward gangly kid coming in who doesnt have a sense for his body. the exception to that are your obvious ones like a chara, but i struggle seeing stuff about kakko's size as to why he is struggling. there are younger and bigger players excelling in the league. this seems to me like another excuse for him. if he was in an awkward growth state with his body then he shouldnt have been in the league in D+1 and he should be growing out of that three years later. i just havent seen growth in his game, he looks like the same player during his rookie year.

as for confidence i think he needs to be actually excelling at something to gain the confidence. what has he excelled at? you dont just get confident bc you are older, you get confident bc you do better. plenty of old people are super lacking in confidence. professional athletes without confidence are damned, you have to have the FU i am better confidence to feed the beast inside. i just havent seen that with him. what in his game breeds confidence at this point?

i have never called kakko a bust (that term is used so stupidly and it doesnt apply) but he is absolutely a disappointment. he should be an nhl player for a long time but he may very well not be the caliper of nhl player that gets picked at 2oa, especially in this day and age of enhanced scrutiny of picks. it's funny bc he was the obvious 2oa pick at the time so it isnt revisionist or complaining about the pick. i am looking strictly at what his body of work is today since he has been drafted. i just havent seen anything to really get excited about for what we hoped to be an impact player. if you are happy with a complimentary player than that is another lens to view him through, but my expectations were to see him grow into an impact player and three years in i just havent seen any growth heading in that direction. that isnt aimed solely at production stats, i dont much care about just the production right now, but what i see just doesnt scream impact player. it is all moral victories and defending his circumstances. i hope that changes this year and he starts to go beast in his play

"(maybe just chalk this up to stupidity by both of us reading and interpreting message board stuff ha)"
I'm going with that. hahaha.
If I came off as saying YOU were saying he's a bust, I apologize.
I enjoy your posts even when we don't agree, and I think I just see more of an upside for him than you do. It happens.

 

[bleedblue94]

There was a reason why the greatest teams of that era (Pittsburgh, Detroit, Chicago) were doing everything possible to get him when he was available.

and now there is a guy who even at 6'1" played a physical game without being a big body checker. he was an absolute tank and used his body so well. he had that awareness almost as soon as he came into the league and was putting up over half a point a game with virtually no pp time right from the start getting 14 mins of ice a game. super under-valued player

 

[bleedblue94]

"(maybe just chalk this up to stupidity by both of us reading and interpreting message board stuff ha)"
I'm going with that. hahaha.
If I came off as saying YOU were saying he's a bust, I apologize.
I enjoy your posts even when we don't agree, and I think I just see more of an upside for him than you do. It happens.

I enjoy your posts as well.

I see upside in kakko, i do, i just dont see the steps to attaining that upside, YET. that is why i keep saying this year is so big for him. i dont think it is negative to be pragmatic.

unless be completely shits the bed in camp he is starting in a top 6 role with other offensive talent. this is entirely on him. his competition for those top rw slots are a lw that has never played rw for any sustained time, and another youngster that was on the fringe of ouster from the org just a couple months ago and has what 20 games of nhl experience? this coming season is kakko's time to take a significant step and start to show he can be an impact player. we BOTH hope it happens

 

[Rangers in 7]

Other than this one last season which looks like an outlier compared to the rest of his career, Chris Kreider has never been a 30-30 player nor ever even close to it, really. And he's never been as good at defense as Kakko probably already is.

So yeah, Kakko can still be the top end first line player that Kreider never was, even if Kakko is not a truly elite player.



If you are going to re-do that draft, it's clearly Zegras.

But the real re-do should have been doubling down on the Buchnevich to Edmonton for 8th overall potential deal. Should have sweetened that pot. Talk about a win-win for both teams had that happened.

Edmonton drafted Phillip Broberg, wgas. They could have had a 70 point 25 year old winger and we could have had Zegras.

Tear my hair out over that one.

I’m not saying kreider is exactly that. Just that ranger fans are obsessed with kreider who produces a similar line. 25 goals a year

 

[McRanger92]

People want to call him a bust. People want to compare him to stars. People want to blame coaches. All I can say is there is no way to know what we have yet but he is going to have to show something this season or next. This will be his 4th season. If guys like Oth or Cylle pass him then he will probably not stay a Ranger next year. I hope he realizes that he really needs to step it up this upcoming season. I hope he works really hard in this offseason and rewards everyone with at least a 20-20 season.

Realistically, he has until the trade deadline to show tangible progress or they are going to trade him. Tough pill to swallow for the eternal optimists but all signs are pointing to this outcome.

 

[EdJovanovski]

After his awful rookie year everyone on here said next year is really important for him, he just struggled because of covid year, etc. Then after his sophomore season everyone said his next year is really important. Now it’s his 4th season that’s really important lmao.

 

[mas0764]

?????????

View attachment 570693

He's come close to 30-30 3 times, 4 if you include this season where he obviously broke 30 goals.

16-17, 18-19 the Pandemic shortened 19-20 and 21-22.

Last season was an outlier in terms of him scoring 50+. He isn't going to do that again.

Hes basically been a 30 goal scorer for a while though. Even in 2021 when he was Shitballs McGee he farted out 20 goals in 50 games. Health/ return of Shitballs McGee permitting, I'd be surprised if he doesn't score 30+ next year.

The closest he got was 7 points of 60, once, and 8 points another time. I don't think that's particularly close. And he's never been 30-30, not even this year.

So no, he hasn't been "basically" a 30 goal scorer for a while, he's never been a 30 goal scorer until this past season.

Hopefully it's the new norm for him, but I doubt it he ever replicates 50. I could see him becoming a Johan Franzen type and potting 30 a couple more times, but he's still not a 30-30 guy because he's not enough of a playmaker to get enough assists, never has been.

Kreider has always more like a 25 and 25 player. To me, that's a guy I want more along the lines of a second line player who, if you have tremendous forward depth like real championship teams do, sometimes plays third line minutes cause you have an embarrassment of riches.

He's not a Crosby/Ovechkin, he's not a Rantanen/Huberdeau, he's not a Pastrnak, DeBrincat or Svechnikov.

He's like a career 50 point player who is an offensive-minded guy (ie, we aren't talking about a Jesper Fast type who fits in a support role on the first line, Kreider is the shoehorned as the scorer on the first line), who at 31 had an explosion, but his career to date is just not a top line player on a Championship team, yet the last two times we've gotten to the Conference Finals he's been one of the 2-3 most important scorers for us and we have been shut down when we get that far. It's because he's not capable of being one of your top scorers when you get that far against better teams.

He gets tremendously overrated here.

 

[McRanger92]

The closest he got was 7 points of 60, once, and 8 points another time. I don't think that's particularly close. And he's never been 30-30, not even this year.

So no, he hasn't been "basically" a 30 goal scorer for a while, he's never been a 30 goal scorer until this past season.

Hopefully it's the new norm for him, but I doubt it he ever replicates 50. I could see him becoming a Johan Franzen type and potting 30 a couple more times, but he's still not a 30-30 guy because he's not enough of a playmaker to get enough assists, never has been.

Kreider has always more like a 25 and 25 player. To me, that's a guy I want more along the lines of a second line player who, if you have tremendous forward depth like real championship teams do, sometimes plays third line minutes cause you have an embarrassment of riches.

He's not a Crosby/Ovechkin, he's not a Rantanen/Huberdeau, he's not a Pastrnak, DeBrincat or Svechnikov.

He's like a career 50 point player who is an offensive-minded guy (ie, we aren't talking about a Jesper Fast type who fits in a support role on the first line, Kreider is the shoehorned as the scorer on the first line), who at 31 had an explosion, but his career to date is just not a top line player on a Championship team, yet the last two times we've gotten to the Conference Finals he's been one of the 2-3 most important scorers for us and we have been shut down when we get that far. It's because he's not capable of being one of your top scorers when you get that far against better teams.

He gets tremendously overrated here.

Already #10 in goals in team history. Tied for 1st in playoff goals in team history. 2nd Most goals in Game 7s in NHL history. He is absolutely a top line forward and has been for years. His contract is also market value at worst. Once again I am glad you aren't running this team or we would've traded him for a 1st and Rasmus Kupari.

Saying Svechnikov is a better player is also laughable, did he even play in that playoff series? Kakko would be lucky to reach any of the career milestones Kreider has.

 

[bbny]

After his awful rookie year everyone on here said next year is really important for him, he just struggled because of covid year, etc. Then after his sophomore season everyone said his next year is really important. Now it’s his 4th season that’s really important lmao.

 

[mas0764]

Already #10 in goals in team history. Tied for 1st in playoff goals in team history. 2nd Most goals in Game 7s in NHL history. He is absolutely a top line forward and has been for years. His contract is also market value at worst. Once again I am glad you aren't running this team or we would've traded him for a 1st and Rasmus Kupari.

Saying Svechnikov is a better player is also laughable, did he even play in that playoff series? Kakko would be lucky to reach any of the career milestones Kreider has.

Well 25 goals year after year will get you there for this franchise sadly.

And the Kreider deal that we should have done was a first and Jason Robertson, a deal which only a true hockey amateur would sit here and say he wouldn’t do. The Buch deal was a first and Kupari which I’ll still take over Blais and a second.

Setting aside Kreider’s 50 goal season this year, which we all agree is elite production, his production may have been, by the numbers, a very low end first line forward production, but that’s the point. Low end for a first line forward. A winning team has him on the second pretty solidly. A team with elite depth might mix and match him all around the middle six and not call it a demotion. In this role he would be an elite asset. As opposed to here where it is sacrilege to even consider despite his line and the entire team underperforming at 5v5 all year and with two top-2 picks in the fold that need fostering.

As his career has otherwise played out, he is an underachiever as a first line forward.

 

[mike14]

After his awful rookie year everyone on here said next year is really important for him, he just struggled because of covid year, etc. Then after his sophomore season everyone said his next year is really important. Now it’s his 4th season that’s really important lmao.

Is it not important? Were those seasons not important? It's possible the every season up to this one has been important, and if something isn't shown this season you really start to work on the law of diminishing returns with him?
Its not exactly a lmao take...

 

[Baby Punisher]

Realistically, he has until the trade deadline to show tangible progress or they are going to trade him. Tough pill to swallow for the eternal optimists but all signs are pointing to this outcome.

Kakko for Kane sounds good to me. Especially if Kratzov turns into something

 

[Rempe73]

Dude better sign quick or this username is getting changed to Kravtsov74

 

[duhmetreE]

Dude better sign quick or this username is getting changed to Kravtsov74

VK74 has a better ring

 

[Zarao71]

Drury better sign Kakko soon. No doubt there are teams trying to clear space for Kadri, Miller, PLD, Tarasenko, Kane, Klinberg ETC... If they fall short grabbing Kakko for a 1st and a third would be a coup. Assuming they are at worst a bubble team. A Kotkaniemi type deal could get that done. Big payday for next year followed by a more reasonable long term extension. Any offer over 4.5 mill and he's likely gone. For a lousy mid to late round 1st and 3rd.
As of today a number of teams fit the bill. Carolina, Isles, Devils, Stars, Preds, Minny.

I've got my money on the Isles. Little to nothing in the pipeline. Unlikely to have a high 1st round pick in 2023. Shit the bed with Gaudreau. Kyle Palmieri and Josh Bailey are your top 2 RW's LOL.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

People want to call him a bust. People want to compare him to stars. People want to blame coaches. All I can say is there is no way to know what we have yet but he is going to have to show something this season or next. This will be his 4th season. If guys like Oth or Cylle pass him then he will probably not stay a Ranger next year. I hope he realizes that he really needs to step it up this upcoming season. I hope he works really hard in this offseason and rewards everyone with at least a 20-20 season.

Being disappointed with him is fine. I am as well. But calling him a but seems odd considering Andrew Ladd, Henrik and Daniel Sedin didn't hit 50 points until they were 25. Van Riemsdyk was 24. Reinhart and J. Staal 23. Niederreiter was 25. Huberdeau was 22. So were Horton and Vanek. All were top-5 draft picks.

This notion that a player is done developing at age 21 is insane.

 

[LokiDog]

The debate in this thread is so stale.

Look, Kakko still may breakout to a 50-60 point player and may even produce beyond that. I use 50-60 points because I think that’s the cutoff for where we’d be “satisfied”.

At the same time, if he were named Mikko Maako and had been drafted 2nd overall by ANY other team in the league, the same people defending him would be laughing at that team’s fans for doing the same.

He may be a later blooming lottery pick. But let’s be realistic - lottery picks who play in the NHL at 18 have a certain trajectory while late 1st round picks and onward have other trajectories - a guy drafted 57th or 112th because he showed certain promising traits and teams knew they were going to let him cook in college/juniors/minors before expecting anything from him, is “on target developmentally” when he’s debuting at 22-23. Guys drafted in the top 5ish are really expected to be much closer to their finished product, or at least have traits that are seen as being immediately transferable to the NHL with a 0-1 year ETA. While we see plenty of players not even make the show until 23 and not make an impact until 23-25, it’s much more uncommon for a top 5 pick to fail to be an impact player early on and still become a successful pick.

For Kakko 3 years and his full ELC are in the bag. We know Seguin, Barkov, Reinhart, etc. took until their third year to break out and start being really impactful, but looking at drafts and looking for players drafted inside the top 5-10 who weren’t impact players by year 4, you find a lot of guys who bounced around, ended up in Europe and were largely disappointing. There are some who still became nice players. What I’m saying is that the incidence of top 5 picks not being impact players early on and successfully become impact players in years 4-5 of their career is a lot lower than it is for guys who were drafted later on with the expectation that they needed multiple extra development years. The guys who were expected to have 0-2 (max) development years either succeed fairly quickly, or tend not to at all. Is that because the ones who don’t were in the NHL too early? Possibly.

2012 top 5 picks who didn’t have a significant early impact: Griffin Reinhart. Galchenyuk looked promising early but fizzled out.

2013: all top 5 were fairly successful, only Drouin has disappointed, and that’s after earlier success.

2014: Bennett is an example of a later breakout, Dal Colle an example of a never broke out.

2015: Dylan Strome put up 57 points in his D+4 but was just not qualified and is on his third team.

2016: Puljuujarvi and Juolevi are not looking like they’re long for this league.

2017: successful top 5 aside from Patrick’s injuries.

2018: Kotkaniemi and Hayton are in danger of busting.

Top 5 picks generally don’t fail to produce or make an impact for 4-5 years after being drafted only to become point per game players or top six staples later on. Bennett is the only example I found going back to 2012. Dylan Strome put up some points but has never really succeeded for a #3. Puljuujarvi is a trade throw in at this point. Kotkaniemi is a meme because of his offer sheet and huge extension. You see examples of guys who had success early (Yakupov, Galchenyuk, Drouin) who faded, but you won’t find many top 5 picks who surged in their D+5 season suddenly.

Kakko still has some time, but anyone acting like this season isn’t huge for him and that he isn’t in danger of becoming a “bust”, or at least a big disappointment as a solid third liner, is lying to themselves. Also the Nichushkin comparison is ridiculous. Nuke had plus skating and physicality from the day he set foot in the NHL. He was able to earn a role in Colorado after failing in Dallas because he brought speed and intensity and work his way back into an opportunity. He was also a 10th overall pick, not a top 3. Kakko will likely never match Nuke’s skating even if he works on it his entire life, and Kakko to date in his career has thrown less hits than Nuke did as a rookie. Nuke is just a convenient prayer for people to hang on to. He broke 50 points for the first time at age 27. How many windows do you want this team to hold on to Kakko through just in case he’s going to make us regret trading him (by being a 50 point player) 6 years from now?

Not saying trade him. Just saying the Nuke comparison provides nothing of similarity and is just convenient for the people who can’t both root for Kakko to succeed and still acknowledge that he’s in danger of being a big disappointment.

 

[LokiDog]

Being disappointed with him is fine. I am as well. But calling him a but seems odd considering Andrew Ladd, Henrik and Daniel Sedin didn't hit 50 points until they were 25. Van Riemsdyk was 24. Reinhart and J. Staal 23. Niederreiter was 25. Huberdeau was 22. So were Horton and Vanek. All were top-5 draft picks.

This notion that a player is done developing at age 21 is insane.

This is a bit disingenuous. Vanek was drafted at 19, missed his rookie season due to lockout and scored 47 as a rookie and 84 in his second year. Horton also missed his rookie year to the lockout, scored 22 in 55 his rookie year and then 47 as a sophomore at 21. Staal had 42 points as an 18-19 year old rookie and then 49 in his D+3 and D+4. Neiderreiter is a good comparison but also the bare minimum of what we hoped for with Kakko, breaking 50 points only twice in his career. Ladd is similar. Van Riemsdyk had 35 points as a rookie, 40 as a sophomore and then 24 in 43 games and 32 in 48 games, so no he didn’t break 50 until D+5 but he was a 40+ player every year since D+2. Sam Reinhart, similarly, scored 42 at 20 and 47 at 21 before hitting 50 at 22.

Using 50 points as a cut off obscures the fact that all of them except for Ladd and Neiderreiter, both of whom required a change of scenery, produced better, quicker, and showed clear progress from season to season on their way to 50. Every one of them. Kakko is going into D+4 and has a career high of 23 points and a best pace of 34. Every single player you mentioned beside the two who were traded before amounting to anything had scored 40+ points by their sophomore season and improving their totals year over year.

 

[hackeyman]

Kakko for Kane sounds good to me. Especially if Kratzov turns into something

He could turn into something magical......like a frog !

 

[bhamill]

After his awful rookie year everyone on here said next year is really important for him, he just struggled because of covid year, etc. Then after his sophomore season everyone said his next year is really important. Now it’s his 4th season that’s really important lmao.

And? Dos that make it less true?
BTW I've been saying that about Kravtsov for a few years too, and here we are... saying it again.
Bottom line is we are talking about players who are 22 years old and younger... It would be stupid to just give up on them.