Player Discussion Kaapo Kakko

[EdJovanovski]

Well that’s not true hossa didn’t put up 56 points until his third season

He had 1 point as a 19 year old and 30 as a 20 year old

So not exactly true

It was still his sophomore season, he played 7 games in his D+1. I'll reword it then.

In Hossa's D+3 season he had 56pts.
In Kakkos D+1, D+2 & D+3 seasons combined he had 58pts.

I’m pretty hard on Kakko, and I’m skeptical of the Hossa comparisons, but Marian is actually an island of hope on a sea of concern when it comes to KK.

Hossa played his D+1 in the WHL.

He scored 30 points in 60 games (0.50ppg) in the NHL in his D+3 playing in a very good Sens team behind Alfredsson and Dackell at RW.

Kakko just put up 18 points in 43 games (0.42ppg) in his D+3 on a very good Rangers team getting similarly limited minutes despite not having a HOFer in front of him at his position.

Hossa is a long shot, stretch goal for Kakko, but it’s not the impossibility some of you are painting it to be.

You read his stat page wrong, you probably thought his 7 game stint was his D+2.
That 30pt in 60gp season was his D+2, not D+3.
His D+3 was 56pts in 78gp. 2 points less than Kakko got in his D+1, D+2 & D+3 combined.

 

[Synergy27]

It was still his sophomore season, he played 7 games in his D+1. I'll reword it then.

In Hossa's D+3 season he had 56pts.
In Kakkos D+1, D+2 & D+3 seasons combined he had 58pts.


You read his stat page wrong, you probably thought his 7 game stint was his D+2.
That 30pt in 60gp season was his D+2, not D+3.
His D+3 was 56pts in 78gp. 2 points less than Kakko got in his D+1, D+2 & D+3 combined.

Yep. You’re right.

 

[Rangers in 7]

It was still his sophomore season, he played 7 games in his D+1. I'll reword it then.

In Hossa's D+3 season he had 56pts.
In Kakkos D+1, D+2 & D+3 seasons combined he had 58pts.


You read his stat page wrong, you probably thought his 7 game stint was his D+2.
That 30pt in 60gp season was his D+2, not D+3.
His D+3 was 56pts in 78gp. 2 points less than Kakko got in his D+1, D+2 & D+3 combined.

Listen if you really want to go into this I think you’d see that the stats are very misleading

I’ll break it down for you

Hossa in his D+3 season season btw scored 56 points in 78 games. He played roughly 1300 minutes on the season. That’s .72 per game and he averaged over 17 minutes a game on a very good sens team.

Kakko in his D+3 which was his third season as well scored 18 in 43 games. He played a whooping 684 minutes. That’s .42 per game. Kakko was only given 15 and a half per game.

You can not compare where they are at the same age when Hossa was given over 600 more minutes of ice time. Kakko also has had a season shortened due to Covid which many players didn’t have to deal with.

Kakko is going to continue to grow and I envision a 30-30 player. Ranger fans loved kreider for doing exactly this…..

 

[Barnaby]

In hindsight, I think they should have left him in Finland for a year. Either way, I agree KK doesn’t owe the rangers anything.

In retrospect, the kid wasn’t ready. A year or two in Finland would’ve been far better for his development. I’m sure, if the Rangers had a redo they’d be all over Seider or Zegras, but Kakko should carve out a solid career even if it’s unspectacular.

 

[Chaels Arms]

I'm more worried about Lafreniere's path to ice time than Kakko or Kravtsov's actually.

Is Lafreniere playing right wing this season? Gallant couldn't wait to take him off RW as soon as Drury gave him reinforcements. Lafreniere said he prefers playing left wing and he plays for a team paying boatloads of money to Chris Kreider and Artemi Panarin. Where is Lafreniere's ice time coming from? He's still blocked in the same way he was last season.

Are Kakko and Kravtsov competing with Lafreniere for RW time or are they just competing with Blais?

 

[Lgrsean]

I'm more worried about Lafreniere's path to ice time than Kakko or Kravtsov's actually.

Is Lafreniere playing right wing this season? Gallant couldn't wait to take him off RW as soon as Drury gave him reinforcements. Lafreniere said he prefers playing left wing and he plays for a team paying boatloads of money to Chris Kreider and Artemi Panarin. Where is Lafreniere's ice time coming from? He's still blocked in the same way he was last season.

Are Kakko and Kravtsov competing with Lafreniere for RW time or are they just competing with Blais?

Gallant said he’d be disappointed if Laf and kakko weren’t in the top 6 next season, so that leads me to believe Laf will play on the mika line where he was finding success before the trade deadline. Kakko and Kravtsov battle it out for RW on the breadline and the loser is with an improved Chytil and Blais. Lots more offensive talent in the top 9 compared to last season.

 

[Off Sides]

I'm more worried about Lafreniere's path to ice time than Kakko or Kravtsov's actually.

Is Lafreniere playing right wing this season? Gallant couldn't wait to take him off RW as soon as Drury gave him reinforcements. Lafreniere said he prefers playing left wing and he plays for a team paying boatloads of money to Chris Kreider and Artemi Panarin. Where is Lafreniere's ice time coming from? He's still blocked in the same way he was last season.

Are Kakko and Kravtsov competing with Lafreniere for RW time or are they just competing with Blais?

They could, but they won't, make it more like a top 9 where those players get about equal amounts of ice time. Like if some majority of a line plays the PP or PK the others get a little more 5on5 time.

They have 3 LWs, 3 centers, and lots of RW candidates, I don't see why, other than stubbornness, they can't make a top 9 in earnest and just reduce the 4th lines ice time as they are not going to likely be very good anyway.

 

[Lgrsean]

They could, but they won't, make it more like a top 9 where those players get about equal amounts of ice time. Like if some majority of a line plays the PP or PK the others get a little more 5on5 time.

They have 3 LWs, 3 centers, and lots of RW candidates, I don't see why, other than stubbornness, they can't make a top 9 in earnest and just reduce the 4th lines ice time as they are not going to likely be very good anyway.

Mika and Bread are 2 of the best forwards in the league. Any coach would give them more shifts than whoever ends up on our 3rd line until they earn more TOI.

 

[Off Sides]

Mika and Bread are 2 of the best forwards in the league. Any coach would give them more shifts than whoever ends up on our 3rd line until they earn more TOI.

So put them on the same line, and on the same PP, then make a top 9 so not only do the others get some ice time, the former are not beat up by playoff time.

Something beside adding a different center might make them better 5on5.

 

[Lgrsean]

So put them on the same line, and on the same PP, then make a top 9 so not only do the others get some ice time, the former are not beat up by playoff time.

Something beside adding a different center might make them better 5on5.

For whatever reason, they haven’t liked bread and mika on the same line and it sounds like they plan on having trocheck center the breadline. I really don’t think there’s any indication that too much even strength toi for the top 2 lines lead to them slowing down in the playoffs. There’s plenty of ice time for the 3rd line to earn. They just need to take it from the 4th line by being more effective.

 

[2014nyr]

i still see the potential for kakko to turn into a monster, it takes a couple years for some guys, but hes got some elite qualities. i expect a breakout in a big way this year from him as well as laf.

not sure if its been mentioned but think carries some weight is hank raves about kakko and thinks hes gonna be an absolute stud. doesnt mean theres no chance it doesnt happen, but hes probably got a decent eye for recognizing potential.

 

[Synergy27]

They could, but they won't, make it more like a top 9 where those players get about equal amounts of ice time. Like if some majority of a line plays the PP or PK the others get a little more 5on5 time.

They have 3 LWs, 3 centers, and lots of RW candidates, I don't see why, other than stubbornness, they can't make a top 9 in earnest and just reduce the 4th lines ice time as they are not going to likely be very good anyway.

I’m begging for this to happen.

The kid line showed so much against the best defenses in the league, deep in the playoffs last year. Imagine what they can do against the Flyers in December? Having that line as your “third line” is exactly the kind of depth/luxury that puts teams over the top. They can still play a lot even if they are the “third line”.

Let Kravtsov play with Mika and Kreider and either rekindle the Buch vibe or just compile points and build trade value.

Put Blais with Panarin and Trocheck and have yourself a MASSIVE upgrade on Hunt there.

I don’t know. This looks like a very simple puzzle to me.

 

[egelband]

In retrospect, the kid wasn’t ready. A year or two in Finland would’ve been far better for his development. I’m sure, if the Rangers had a redo they’d be all over Seider or Zegras, but Kakko should carve out a solid career even if it’s unspectacular.

Yep. No harm leaving an 18 year old home for the year or even two. Some kids are precoscious, sure. But KK was a quiet reserved kid still. I for sure wanted to see our shiny new toy right away. But looking back, it was too soon. I hope they don’t make the same mistake. Even though Sykora looks much more mature, staying home for a season won’t hurt.

 

[mas0764]

Kakko is going to continue to grow and I envision a 30-30 player. Ranger fans loved kreider for doing exactly this…..

Other than this one last season which looks like an outlier compared to the rest of his career, Chris Kreider has never been a 30-30 player nor ever even close to it, really. And he's never been as good at defense as Kakko probably already is.

So yeah, Kakko can still be the top end first line player that Kreider never was, even if Kakko is not a truly elite player.

In retrospect, the kid wasn’t ready. A year or two in Finland would’ve been far better for his development. I’m sure, if the Rangers had a redo they’d be all over Seider or Zegras, but Kakko should carve out a solid career even if it’s unspectacular.

If you are going to re-do that draft, it's clearly Zegras.

But the real re-do should have been doubling down on the Buchnevich to Edmonton for 8th overall potential deal. Should have sweetened that pot. Talk about a win-win for both teams had that happened.

Edmonton drafted Phillip Broberg, wgas. They could have had a 70 point 25 year old winger and we could have had Zegras.

Tear my hair out over that one.

 

[Player big P]

Other than this one last season which looks like an outlier compared to the rest of his career, Chris Kreider has never been a 30-30 player nor ever even close to it, really. And he's never been as good at defense as Kakko probably already is.

So yeah, Kakko can still be the top end first line player that Kreider never was, even if Kakko is not a truly elite player.



If you are going to re-do that draft, it's clearly Zegras.

But the real re-do should have been doubling down on the Buchnevich to Edmonton for 8th overall potential deal. Should have sweetened that pot. Talk about a win-win for both teams had that happened.

Edmonton drafted Phillip Broberg, wgas. They could have had a 70 point 25 year old winger and we could have had Zegras.

Tear my hair out over that one.

Yeah but do you really want a player who flips weird passes and scores weird flashy goals?

IT'S RUINING THE GAME

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Other than this one last season which looks like an outlier compared to the rest of his career, Chris Kreider has never been a 30-30 player nor ever even close to it, really. And he's never been as good at defense as Kakko probably already is.

So yeah, Kakko can still be the top end first line player that Kreider never was, even if Kakko is not a truly elite player.

?????????



He's come close to 30-30 3 times, 4 if you include this season where he obviously broke 30 goals.

16-17, 18-19 the Pandemic shortened 19-20 and 21-22.

Last season was an outlier in terms of him scoring 50+. He isn't going to do that again.

Hes basically been a 30 goal scorer for a while though. Even in 2021 when he was Shitballs McGee he farted out 20 goals in 50 games. Health/ return of Shitballs McGee permitting, I'd be surprised if he doesn't score 30+ next year.

 

[bleedblue94]

So Kakko isn’t a star/ is a bust because he hasn’t broken out as a 21 year old in the NHL…
If management has the same sort of short sighted impatience as our fan base we’re f***ed. Hahaha.
I think the 2019 -2022 draft classes, but esp 19 and 20, had their development severely impacted by COVID. Look at 2019, only three players have played 150 NHL games. Only three others have broken 100. Who is a “star”? Hughes, Zegras? Both small quick players that tend to develop quicker than big bodied players. Only six players have broken 50 NHL points, one of them being Kakko.
This bust talk is ridiculous. This expectation of stardom at 21 is unrealistic. If we end up trading Kakko for a rental or anything else of “sell low” value we are going to regret it big time.

I don't think anyone here is expecting him to be a star right now or anything like that, but I think it is entirely realistic to expect him to be a player with some sort of impact and presence three years into his nhl career as a 2oa pick.

There is a middle ground to the people complaining that he isn't putting up 60+pts already and those that are defending a player that has 58pts and only 26 goals in 157 games as a 2oa pick which is historically poor production for someone drafted 2oa in the last couple decades. Aside from the actual numbers, his play is just super "meh" with the best thing usually said about him being that he can be an elite defensive forward. That isn't what you are drafting at 2oa. His skating isn't elite, he shot isn't elite, his playmaking isn't elite.

Aside from that, this constant talk about confidence and even the jokes about him losing his virginity so maybe he will be more confident is concerning because their is an aura of truth to it. He has never looked like a confident player in NA besides his little run at the rookie tournament but even there he didn't light the world on fire. I cant remember the last high level draft pick for any team that has had so much talk of a general lack of personal confidence, not just on ice.

I still maintain that one of my biggest issues with kakko is that he has this constant pause when he loses a puck battle where there is a moment of head slouching disappointment before he moves on to try to get it back or reengage with the play. That hesitation to me is symbolic of what we see in the player. This disappointment in most things he does rather than him just pressing forward to regain possession and attempting to impose his will. I realize he is still young and he cant physically impose his will on a lot of the men in the league but there is a mentality to it that you can see with just about any effective NHL player or any age, the tenacious FU mentality that you're not going to beat me on this play, and if you do right now I am going to turn the tables on you. I just don't see that with kakko yet. This coming year is where we will see where this is going with him.

 

[McRanger92]

This fanbase will never learn their lesson with young players. How are we still comparing Kakko to Marian Hossa? They are nothing alike.

 

[bhamill]

I don't think anyone here is expecting him to be a star right now or anything like that, but I think it is entirely realistic to expect him to be a player with some sort of impact and presence three years into his nhl career as a 2oa pick.

There is a middle ground to the people complaining that he isn't putting up 60+pts already and those that are defending a player that has 58pts and only 26 goals in 157 games as a 2oa pick which is historically poor production for someone drafted 2oa in the last couple decades. Aside from the actual numbers, his play is just super "meh" with the best thing usually said about him being that he can be an elite defensive forward. That isn't what you are drafting at 2oa. His skating isn't elite, he shot isn't elite, his playmaking isn't elite.

Aside from that, this constant talk about confidence and even the jokes about him losing his virginity so maybe he will be more confident is concerning because their is an aura of truth to it. He has never looked like a confident player in NA besides his little run at the rookie tournament but even there he didn't light the world on fire. I cant remember the last high level draft pick for any team that has had so much talk of a general lack of personal confidence, not just on ice.

I still maintain that one of my biggest issues with kakko is that he has this constant pause when he loses a puck battle where there is a moment of head slouching disappointment before he moves on to try to get it back or reengage with the play. That hesitation to me is symbolic of what we see in the player. This disappointment in most things he does rather than him just pressing forward to regain possession and attempting to impose his will. I realize he is still young and he cant physically impose his will on a lot of the men in the league but there is a mentality to it that you can see with just about any effective NHL player or any age, the tenacious FU mentality that you're not going to beat me on this play, and if you do right now I am going to turn the tables on you. I just don't see that with kakko yet. This coming year is where we will see where this is going with him.

Well I said that because there was a post SPECIFICALLY complaining that Kakko wasn't a star and there's out and out "He's a bust" posts...
Yes there's plenty of middle ground, and most of us were hoping for more. Personally, watching him, especially in the playoffs, I think he will get there.
I understand that "historically" his showing is disappointing... if you want to ignore the effect COVID has had on ALL of these players' development, never mind Kakko's injury problem this past year. Of course staying healthy is a part of being a top level NHLer, so if he's hurt again this year and/or just doesn't build on his playoff, I'll start to worry about him a little. As of now I see big things for a player that will still be 21 when the season starts. Big bodied guys like him historically take a little longer than the small speedy guys, and only Hughes and Zegras started really stepping it up last year. I think you are going to continue to see a lot of guys have their development a little behind "historical" schedule right up through players from this year's draft.

 

[bleedblue94]

Well I said that because there was a post SPECIFICALLY complaining that Kakko wasn't a star and there's out and out "He's a bust" posts...
Yes there's plenty of middle ground, and most of us were hoping for more. Personally, watching him, especially in the playoffs, I think he will get there.
I understand that "historically" his showing is disappointing... if you want to ignore the effect COVID has had on ALL of these players' development, never mind Kakko's injury problem this past year. Of course staying healthy is a part of being a top level NHLer, so if he's hurt again this year and/or just doesn't build on his playoff, I'll start to worry about him a little. As of now I see big things for a player that will still be 21 when the season starts. Big bodied guys like him historically take a little longer than the small speedy guys, and only Hughes and Zegras started really stepping it up last year. I think you are going to continue to see a lot of guys have their development a little behind "historical" schedule right up through players from this year's draft.

These two narratives of "he's not a star" whining and the "he is getting jerked around by the team" whining have been going for years, so let's not act like this just came up in one post or one person SPECIFICALLY compaining.

I am not sure why you keep quoting the historical part, it wasn't a smart ass comment, it is simply true. Another poster here made a great post showing the data on this awhile ago.

I also don't know why kakko gets talked about like he plays a big body game, he doesn't. He spends more time trying to be a finesse player and stick check than he does at all using his body or playing any sort of power game which is concerning but again points to a lack of confidence in asserting himself, and I also think part of this is because of how bad his shot is.

When a player lacks confidence in his ability to beat a goalie with his shot it shreds apart their offensive game. His shot is simply not good, to the point that I cant think of a single time (there probably/hopefully is one or two times) that he just beat an nhl goalie cleanly with his shot. When goalies and defenses dont respect your shot your other options as an offensive player dry up, just look at panarin and his refusal to shoot, it affects so much more of his game, but panarin has off the charts skill and finesse to make up for this on some levels. Kakko simply hasn't shown the necessary skill at this level to be a finesse player.

 

[bhamill]

These two narratives of "he's not a star" whining and the "he is getting jerked around by the team" whining have been going for years, so let's not act like this just came up in one post or one person SPECIFICALLY compaining.

I am not sure why you keep quoting the historical part, it wasn't a smart ass comment, it is simply true. Another poster here made a great post showing the data on this awhile ago.

I also don't know why kakko gets talked about like he plays a big body game, he doesn't. He spends more time trying to be a finesse player and stick check than he does at all using his body or playing any sort of power game which is concerning but again points to a lack of confidence in asserting himself, and I also think part of this is because of how bad his shot is.

When a player lacks confidence in his ability to beat a goalie with his shot it shreds apart their offensive game. His shot is simply not good, to the point that I cant think of a single time (there probably/hopefully is one or two times) that he just beat an nhl goalie cleanly with his shot. When goalies and defenses dont respect your shot your other options as an offensive player dry up, just look at panarin and his refusal to shoot, it affects so much more of his game, but panarin has off the charts skill and finesse to make up for this on some levels. Kakko simply hasn't shown the necessary skill at this level to be a finesse player.

Okay, I was addressing specific comments on this thread. I think that's fair.
I'm not complaining about ANYTHING, including his treatment by the team, I think he's going to be fine.
I also wasn't being a smart ass, it's a legitimate thing you did bringing up historical context, my point is only that COVID isn't historically precedented and IMO has delayed many players' development.
I didn't say he plays a "big body game," I said he was a big bodied player, though prior to the NHL he did use size and strength to his advantage which he hasn't been able to yet in NA. Smaller players have less growing into their bodies to do, Kakko still is not finished filling out and getting his strength. IMO, that is a factor for any bigger player. It's not an outlier opinion.
As I said, he'll still be 21 when the season starts and I assume his confidence will continue to go up as he builds on his playoffs. Or maybe he WILL top out as a 3rd liner, but I would be surprised. You're allowed to feel differently.

 

[bleedblue94]

Okay, I was addressing specific comments on thread. I think that's fair.
I'm not complaining about ANYTHING, including his treatment by the team, I think he's going to be fine.
I also wasn't being a smart ass, it's a legitimate thing you did bringing up historical context, my point is only that COVID isn't historically precidented and IMO has delayed many players' development.
I didn't say he plays a "big body game," I said he was a big bodied player, though prior to the NHL he did use size and strength to his advantage which he hasn't yet been able to yet in NA. Smaller players have less growing into their bodies to do, Kakko still is not finished filling out and getting his strength. IMO, that is a factor for any bigger player.
As I said, he'll still be 21 when the season starts and I assume his confidence will continue to go up as he builds on his playoffs. Or maybe he WILL top out as a 3rd liner, but I would be surprised. You're allowed to feel differently.

the post you replied to was talking about the comments and sentiments made by two evolving faction on this board about kakko and you turned this into bhamill didnt say that so why are you saying that to me, yet then you write this post and say you were addressing other comments within this thread. we are both addressing the sentiments of various people within this thread.

so where did I say you were complaining about his treatment by the team? where did I say you said he plays a big body game? you said big body guys take longer, in 2022 6'3" 205lbs isn't really big bodied for a 21 year old. This isn't 1995 where someone showed up to camp looking like bambi and is trying to figure out how to skate. I have no issue with him developing strength, that is to be expected, but the point i rather clearly laid out is that the type of game he plays isnt as dependent on the man strength as the type of game that he should be playing at this level and has in the past. my issue is he isnt even trying to play that game, he is shifting to finesse at this level and whether at is out of intimidation, lack of confidence, or whatever it isnt a good thing at all and is a disturbing trend with him. guy has thrown 42 hits in 157 games, there isnt much physical play there (yes I know physicality comes in ways outside of just the hits stat, but that stat is also representative of willingness to engage in body contact and in battles).

you keep saying "build on his playoffs," last i checked he was scratched in the playoffs and had 5pts in 19 games, not exactly a breakout. you can say build on playoffs for a chytil or laffy type, but how do you build on a playoffs when you were scratched for the last game ha

 

[bleedblue94]

This fanbase will never learn their lesson with young players. How are we still comparing Kakko to Marian Hossa? They are nothing alike.

the skill difference between those two players is monumental. hossa's pure skill level was so underappreciated bc of the other guys he played with overshadowing him and just his nature on the ice, he was a wonderful player

 

[McRanger92]

the skill difference between those two players is monumental. hossa's pure skill level was so underappreciated bc of the other guys he played with overshadowing him and just his nature on the ice, he was a wonderful player

There was a reason why the greatest teams of that era (Pittsburgh, Detroit, Chicago) were doing everything possible to get him when he was available.

 

[bhamill]

where did I say you were complaining about his treatment by the team?

where did I say you said he plays a big body game? you said big body guys take longer, in 2022 6'3" 205lbs isn't really big bodied for a 21 year old. This isn't 1995 where someone showed up to camp looking like bambi and is trying to figure out how to skate. I have no issue with him developing strength, that is to be expected, but the point i rather clearly laid out is that the type of game he plays isnt as dependent on the man strength as the type of game that he should be playing at this level and has in the past. my issue is he isnt even trying to play that game, he is shifting to finesse at this level and whether at is out of intimidation, lack of confidence, or whatever it isnt a good thing at all and is a disturbing trend with him. guy has thrown 42 hits in 157 games, there isnt much physical play there (yes I know physicality comes in ways outside of just the hits stat, but that stat is also representative of willingness to engage in body contact and in battles).

you keep saying "build on his playoffs," last i checked he was scratched in the playoffs and had 5pts in 19 games, not exactly a breakout. you can say build on playoffs for a chytil or laffy type, but how do you build on a playoffs when you were scratched for the last game ha

Holy moly. Where did I say you said I was complaining, I merely stated that I am not complaining after you brought up the complaining... hahaha.
You think he didn't improve in the playoffs? Fine. We disagree.
You think 6'3 205 isn't big? Fine. We disagree. (And when he actually is mature I'd expect 215.) He's sure not small.
Yes I think his pre draft game did somewhat rely on size and strength. You disagree. Fine.
You think it's not a strength game, using your body to shield the puck or get to tight areas unless you are also throwing hits? Fine. We disagree.
I think he will get more confidence than he had in a season he started at 20 years old. You seem to think he won't. Fine. we disagree.
Hahaha.
I don't care if we don't agree. We are both speculating and we will get to see what happens starting in a couple of short months.
This has been fun. Anything else you want to disagree on? Hahaha.
In all seriousness, I'm clearly giving MY opinions, I'm not expecting you or anyone else to share all of them. But if anyone expects me to just accept THEIR opinion that Kakko is a bust and likely never more than a third liner that is not going to pan out