Justin Holl

[Critical13]

There is something seriously wrong with the fans of this team when they're ganging up on one of the lower paid players on the team, who finished the game +1, registered 1A, wasn't on the ice for ANY goals against, had the lowest scoring chances against, lowest expected GA and played 21 solid minutes.

Agreed. Brodie, Rielly, Marner and Andersen are all making 5m or more and have all performed worse.

And I am not talking about worse in Relation to their salary - I mean just worse. We can’t win if these 4 are constantly being outplayed by the other teams cheaper alternative, or better alternative.

 

[deprw]

It is when Justin Holl is attempting it...

Again, a guy who is not gifted offensively shouldn't have a long leash to roam around freely on the ice like he's the second coming of Bobby Orr.

I think he has good hockey IQ to get into those openings. I rather see him skating puck into offensive zone rather than dumping it in to other team. Or see him skate into 2on1 now and then, rather than dumping that puck to other team. If it's the right play in that time. It's not the name in the back that I care. Those low percentage scoring plays result a goal now and then. It's called secondary scoring and we lack in that department.

It's another thing for Holl to start dangling around to create things or risk it on offensive blue line. Holl didn't do that and those opening didn't lead scoring chances last night?

If they will I think he has to play more conservative. Leash is short in that sense I think. Holl seems to have ability to pick those spots when to do those moves.

 

[therealkoho]

Justin Holl is a serviceable member of the Leafs blueline. He's a surprise find from the Marlies. Over the course of last season, he established himself, played quality minutes and formed a reliable paring with Muzzin in a shut down capacity. He's also a RHD and has big wing span which is rare on this team and in the league. His cap hit is also fine.

But for the sake of promoting a more defensively responsible and structured team, Holl should not be the player leading a two on one break or find himself rushing the puck up the ice or leading the attack and getting caught behind the opposition goal all in the same game like Game 2 vs Ottawa.

Those are privileges and responsibilities should be reserved for special defensemen, and he's clearly not that level of a player where he can create more offense than give up. So with so many other offensively capable players on the roster, I think Keefe needs to put strict limits on what he can do in a transition situation. Not that he can never join the attack, but basically never...

It's hockey and as you know play is more often then not dictated by circumstance. There were two Senators below the redline, one below the dots there was another one trying to get to the bench. Holl saw a two on one if he moved the puck and it's what he did.

 

[Mickey Marner]

I'm not a big fan, he doesn't burn us, but he's not super steady either. He can skate well for his size, handle/move the puck decently in the NZ and brings enough physicality in the DZ to battle for pucks. He just doesn't process the game at a level where he can create enough offense to justify the length of his leash. He goes for a skate and it usually ends up with the puck being turned over either by feigning a zone entry and making a poor dump in instead or skating aimlessly to the corner and not knowing what to do next.

 

[Gallagbi]

What a bizarre thread. This isn't table hockey, if the opportunity presents itself, take it.

I'd like to see him bumped go the third pair with Dermott while we audition someone else in the top 4, but playing Bogo puts some limitations on it.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Holl had a great stretch last year in a complimentary role to Muzzin but I was always skeptical on his mobility and ability to keep up in a top 4 role.

But he did prove that he's a solid bottom pairing d-man. At his price tag, he's fine.

 

[BertCorbeau]

He's pretty bad.

Another one that showed his true colors but not before Dubas handed him a fat multi-year contract.

3 years at $2 mill AAV is not a fat multi year contract

 

[Menzinger]

3 years at $2 mill AAV is not a fat multi year contract

Holls deal is perfectly in line with good #5 guys. Proven top four guys get more money than that - his contract isn't an issue

 

[Bomber0104]

3 years at $2 mill AAV is not a fat multi year contract

When you're playing like a bottom pairing defenceman and only being held afloat by a way better D-partner, yeah it is a fat multi-year contract.

 

[Stephen]

It's hockey and as you know play is more often then not dictated by circumstance. There were two Senators below the redline, one below the dots there was another one trying to get to the bench. Holl saw a two on one if he moved the puck and it's what he did.

It’s an easy excuse that hockey is played in a free flowing way but the reality is it everybody has free reign to do whatever improvisational plays they want it’s going to be the tire fire we are accustomed to liking at. I look at a guy like Morgan Rielly and he shouldn’t even be doing some of the things he does but let alone Justin Holl.

 

[BertCorbeau]

When you're playing like a bottom pairing defenceman and only being held afloat by a way better D-partner, yeah it is a fat multi-year contract.

... so he’s playing like a bottom pairing d-man and being paid like one.

I see no problem here.

 

[Bomber0104]

... so he’s playing like a bottom pairing d-man and being paid like one.

I see no problem here.

Bottom pairing defencemen do not make $2 million/yr.

Especially on teams where 4 forwards are being paid half the salary cap FFS.

 

[Dreakmur]

Bottom pairing defencemen do not make $2 million/yr.

Especially on teams where 4 forwards are being paid half the salary cap FFS.

#5s are fine being paid 2.0.

You are correct, though, that we're limited by the big contracts. We have to save money somewhere, and #5 defenseman isn't a bad place to do that.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

... so he’s playing like a bottom pairing d-man and being paid like one.

I see no problem here.

Well he's not playing like a bottom pairing defenseman, he's playing like a top 4 defenseman. Whether it's just because Muzzin carries him or it's his own talent doesn't really matter much

 

[Menzinger]

Bottom pairing defencemen do not make $2 million/yr.

Especially on teams where 4 forwards are being paid half the salary cap FFS.

This isn't true at all. Especially for most #5s.

 

[The Iceman]

Should he dump the puck instead of leading the 2 on 1...I don't get it

 

[Bomber0104]

This isn't true at all. Especially for most #5s.

"This isn't true at all" isn't a rebuttal.

Look at the Cup finalists bottom pairing d-men last year.

Then let me know how many made $2 million.

There's my evidence, now what's yours?

 

[Chief Berube]

I actually think he’s been one of the more steady D on the ice the first two games. Maybe I’m being crazy but I actually think that’s why him and Muzzin work so well together and maybe he would work well with Rielly. It’s just the minutes I’d have a problem with. The guy has been fine. Moving on

 

[Menzinger]

"This isn't true at all" isn't a rebuttal.

Look at the Cup finalists bottom pairing d-men last year.

Then let me know how many made $2 million.

There's my evidence, now what's yours?

So two teams? Tampa is a cap crunched team so its understandable they have to pinch pennies on their bottom pairing, it doesn't mean that's the norm

Here's a review of defensemen salaries from 2018: average cost of a #5/6 was 2.9 million

HockeyBuzz.com - Ryan Wilson - Average cost for bottom pairing defensemen

While its hardly a perfect review -and guys on ELC deals are obviously a factor, the vet salaries for guys in their late 20s/early 30s falls fairly consistently in that range

And Holl gets 2nd pairing usage most games.

Even perusing the capfriendly charts on the Canadian division, Holls salary is on the higher side of bottom pairing guys, and well below what most teams pay for their 2nd pairing #4 guys. Which seems to fit pretty much where he lands on the Leafs depth chart

Edit: clarification

 

[Funk21]

IMO this is what our defensive pairings should be

Rielly Brodie
Muzzin Lehtonen
Dermott Holl
Bogo

 

[zeke]

Holl has been our best dman thru 2 games.

Pretty easily, too.

 

[Primary Assist]

I'm surprised to learn that he's American - his playing style screams WHL to me, not NCAA. He's been more than steady though the past two nights, and he's an absolute gem of a find for our system. He challenges the players above him to play better and keeps the players below him on the depth chart from filling spots they shouldn't be in.

He's also great at finding/making that extra half second of time in the D Zone, which makes him a natural fit for Muzzin who plays his best hockey when he has a defense partner who can stretch the ice in the defensive and neutral zones.

 

[ottomaddox]

Holl had a solid game against Ottawa. I hope he keeps it up.

 

[1specter]

Holl had a solid game against Ottawa. I hope he keeps it up.

He did, considering how quiet this thread is tonight. Led the defense with 85% possession and no goals against.

 

[Critical13]

He did, considering how quiet this thread is tonight. Led the defense with 85% possession and no goals against.

I think he has led the team's defence in xGF% in all 3 games if I am not mistaken.

I saw one almost costly flub at the end of the game I think (was that his giveaway with seconds left, breaking it out?). Other than that, I am very please considering how rough he looked last year after signing his new deal.