Player Discussion JT Miller Thread

[F A N]

Seems like nobody is thinking about what happens if you trade Miller and Pettersson still underperforms.

Everyone seems to be convinced that Miller is the reason that Pettersson is playing poorly.

I think a lot of people are going to be in for a rude awakening if Miller does get traded.

I think there's been some discussions about Petey having even more pressure to perform once/if Miller is gone. I guess internally management wasn't 100% comfortable with having both players given that they've tried to trade Miller at every turn.

 

[F A N]

I do think that the Horvat precedent will temper any return Miller receives. Other teams will use it as a template.

Well it depends on how you look at it. "You can look at it that we got three first-rounders back here" - Allvin.

I do think the Horvat return was a good return for a pending UFA. The pick was top 12 protected but IIRC, the Islanders were sitting just outside of a playoff spot so it was realistically a potential #13-15 pick (it ended up being #17). Keep in mind we were able to trade the Horvat pick (which decreased in value) for Hronek. Miller is older but he's coming off a 100+ point season with 5 more years at $8M AAV.

So I'm not sure that the Horvat pick tempers any return Miller receives. I think it is difficult to swing for a trade midseason where you're getting that significant young roster player + 1st round pick + top prospect or more.

 

[Hodgy]

I’ve mentioned it before, but I don’t think it is a coincidence that Miller’s benching/leave was right after he let a pass that led to a goal get through him because he was too busy yelling at Pettersson.

Ya, the LOA coming right after the benching is way too much of a coincidence to be dismissed. It really does seem like Tocchett has told Miller, probably a number of times, to stop being worried about what other players are doing on the ice and to worry about himself because its probably just a big distraction and probably because other players (including Pettersson) are tired of it. And I think Miller has probably been unable to control his emotions and has continued to do the thing he's been told not to do, and I think this all culminated in him being benched. And then, perhaps not surprisingly, Miller blew up at Tocchett for benching him (and publicly embarrassing him) and the team told Miller to take a LOA. And as @MS has pointed out, there probably is some reasonable frustration being experienced by Miller when he gets public shamed for his play despite playing much better than Petterssson, who to date, hadn't been criticized, to at least the same extent, publicly. But at the end of the day, I don't think Pettersson or others were continually ignoring direct instructions from coaching, and I don't think any of them blew up like Miller probably did after his benching. So the situations are different.

Ironically, I think management and coaching generally like Miller's intensity, and probably agree with his criticism of other players, but you can't have this become a distraction or continue when enough players have expressed they don't like it. And you certainly need to do something about this behaviour if it continues after multiple warnings. Its interesting, though, or perhaps more irony, that after the LOA Allvin publicly called out Pettersson which probably vindicated Miller's thoughts. I have often wondered if Allvin wasn't almost doing this partly as an olive branch to Miller, as if to say that management understands and agrees with his concerns, albeit not the way in which he is expressing it.

 

[nowhereman]

A big reason why we made it to the 2nd round was Silovs and Colton Sissons missing an empty net in the last 2 minutes of game 4 when the score was 3-2 for Nashville. That happened becasue Skinny Pete hustled back and pressured him unlike Miller who would have given up on a play like that. Sissons scores there the series is 2-2 and they have all the momentum. Instead, he missed and we made an epic comeback.That was the turning point of the series.

JT Miller was great in the playoffs and had some absolutely huge goals/plays including assisting on 3 of the Canucks' 4 goals in that same game you're referencing. Using some hypothetical situation to throw shade at him, assuming he would have apparently "given up", is pretty weak.

 

[racerjoe]

Ya, the LOA coming right after the benching is way too much of a coincidence to be dismissed. It really does seem like Tocchett has told Miller, probably a number of times, to stop being worried about what other players are doing on the ice and to worry about himself because its probably just a big distraction and probably because other players (including Pettersson) are tired of it. And I think Miller has probably been unable to control his emotions and has continued to do the thing he's been told not to do, and I think this all culminated in him being benched. And then, perhaps not surprisingly, Miller blew up at Tocchett for benching him (and publicly embarrassing him) and the team told Miller to take a LOA. And as @MS has pointed out, there probably is some reasonable frustration being experienced by Miller when he gets public shamed for his play despite playing much better than Petterssson, who to date, hadn't been criticized, to at least the same extent, publicly. But at the end of the day, I don't think Pettersson or others were continually ignoring direct instructions from coaching, and I don't think any of them blew up like Miller probably did after his benching. So the situations are different.

Ironically, I think management and coaching generally like Miller's intensity, and probably agree with his criticism of other players, but you can't have this become a distraction or continue when enough players have expressed they don't like it. And you certainly need to do something about this behaviour if it continues after multiple warnings. Its interesting, though, or perhaps more irony, that after the LOA Allvin publicly called out Pettersson which probably vindicated Miller's thoughts. I have often wondered if Allvin wasn't almost doing this partly as an olive branch to Miller, as if to say that management understands and agrees with his concerns, albeit not the way in which he is expressing it.

My small disagreement is I don’t think you can say he was the only one to be criticized, and when a big part of the overall debate has been that the coach, and GM called out Pettersson multiple times. At least as one poster has put it.

 

[arttk]

And as @MS has pointed out, there probably is some reasonable frustration being experienced by Miller when he gets public shamed for his play despite playing much better than Petterssson, who to date, hadn't been criticized,

I don’t understand why you guys need to continue to push a narrative that cannot be proven. It’s like you just need to bring Petey into it. Miller cannot possibly cross the line himself, he crossed it because of jealously around Petey. Uh huh

 

[geebster]

Ya, the LOA coming right after the benching is way too much of a coincidence to be dismissed. It really does seem like Tocchett has told Miller, probably a number of times, to stop being worried about what other players are doing on the ice and to worry about himself because its probably just a big distraction and probably because other players (including Pettersson) are tired of it. And I think Miller has probably been unable to control his emotions and has continued to do the thing he's been told not to do, and I think this all culminated in him being benched. And then, perhaps not surprisingly, Miller blew up at Tocchett for benching him (and publicly embarrassing him) and the team told Miller to take a LOA. And as @MS has pointed out, there probably is some reasonable frustration being experienced by Miller when he gets public shamed for his play despite playing much better than Petterssson, who to date, hadn't been criticized, to at least the same extent, publicly. But at the end of the day, I don't think Pettersson or others were continually ignoring direct instructions from coaching, and I don't think any of them blew up like Miller probably did after his benching. So the situations are different.

Ironically, I think management and coaching generally like Miller's intensity, and probably agree with his criticism of other players, but you can't have this become a distraction or continue when enough players have expressed they don't like it. And you certainly need to do something about this behaviour if it continues after multiple warnings. Its interesting, though, or perhaps more irony, that after the LOA Allvin publicly called out Pettersson which probably vindicated Miller's thoughts. I have often wondered if Allvin wasn't almost doing this partly as an olive branch to Miller, as if to say that management understands and agrees with his concerns, albeit not the way in which he is expressing it.

This is a take that I completely disagree with. Miller got significantly less heat than Pettersson at the time of his leave of absence. More recently, because of his extreme moping and actively throwing games by giving up on his team the criticism has ramped up, but back then? The entire city and fan base defended Miller as the heart of the team and criticized Petey.

Heck til I made this thread we hadn't had an active Miller discussion going in years. But the Petey thread has been the most active thing on HFCanucks the entire time. Like I don't see Miller being the most criticized person and Petey getting a pass at all. The media has become more chill over the years, the hate on Pettersson didn't rise to the absolute garbage reporting on Luongo etc but it absolutely wasn't less than Millers. In fact people were happy to give Miller the pass for mistakes that Petey would get criticism for because he had the right attitude and was such a key guy for us last year while Petey was disappointing in the 2nd half and playoffs.

With Peteys contract and his play he 1000% was criticized more before during and immediately after Miller's leave of absence than Miller was. It took the feud rumours and his play to revert to pre Tocchet giving up on his team levels for people to criticize him earnestly. Petey still gets a ton of fanbase criticism for his offensive production and contract. Its just overshadowed temporarily by Miller due to active trade rumours and his moping.

 

[PanniniClaus]

Is it possible the Canucks told JT to get a mental health assessment and not to come back until he has a path forward? Take some time, see some professionals. Get on a treatment plan... combo of therapy and drugs.

He is cleared to return but it is still not working... perhaps he doesn't want to partake in the treatment plan.

So the Canucks have to act to save their workplace.. they need to make their workplace psychologically safe... as safe as an NHL dressing room can be. So Miller has to go but of course they need to get the best return possible. Don't envy Alvin here and at the end of the day, if Tocchet doesn't like what sees on the roster.. he takes his coaching elsewhere.

 

[geebster]

Is it possible the Canucks told JT to get a mental health assessment and not to come back until he has a path forward? Take some time, see some professionals. Get on a treatment plan... combo of therapy and drugs.

He is cleared to return but it is still not working... perhaps he doesn't want to partake in the treatment plan.

So the Canucks have to act to save their workplace.. they need to make their workplace psychologically safe... as safe as an NHL dressing room can be. So Miller has to go but of course they need to get the best return possible. Don't envy Alvin here and at the end of the day, if Tocchet doesn't like what sees on the roster.. he takes his coaching elsewhere.

I mean anything is possible, but mental health intervention of that sort requires buy in. Miller would have to want that. He has had games where he looks like the Miller we know so its definitely tough to say for sure he doesnt have it in him to turn it around right now.

This mirrors a lot of Petey discussion of course, because he clearly has a mental problem going (though as has been pointed out, hes gone from a mid 90th percentile shooting speed and skating speed player to middle of the league, a massive fall off, so physical issues cannot be ruled out). Petey can still stickhandle, he still reads plays exceptionally well, and he still is bought in on defense yet he just cant produce. Seems mental, since even if his shot isnt there he used to score off of intelligence as much as he did off shot power and accuracy.

That is all to say that even though we've had a player where such solutions might have been ideal (the old why not give him a sports therapist like Mackinnon got argument), it hasnt happened despite it being a full calendar year of the issue being present, and it having happened the year before that too. So its easier said than done, I suspect (and I have my own biases here) that Miller's issues are more ingrained personality than it is a mental health issue. Therapy can still help take the edge off of that, but you arent going to make him a nice guy to be around, especially if he doesnt see it as a problem or buys into the intervention.

There have been great teams across team sports that had players that didnt like eachother or talk to eachother much. It can absolutely work, if and only if Miller is willing to keep his mouth shut for the team. The reason to go after someone for a perceived issue is to help resolve or motivate them to fix it. CLEARLY it hasnt helped with Petey by yelling at him etc. So if Miller cares about actually making things work, a mental health intervention likely makes less sense than just making it clear to him that it isnt his job to police teammates and his policing hasnt even been working or helping. Tell him to be cognizant of who is motivated by what and focus that energy where it helps the team (since it surely did help us last year).

 

[y2kcanucks]

I stated the numbers this year. And pretending this year only matters is bullshit anyway

It matters in the context of his current trade value. And your numbers from this year prove my point.

JT Miller was a beast for us in the playoffs, a big reason we took the Oilers to game 7 of the second round. 8M is a steal for what he brings come April. Our other star centre was an absolute ghost in the playoffs, we were fortunate to have Lindholm slot in for Petey. Losing Miller would be a HUGE hole to fill.

Miller is 32...we're going to lose him no matter what because of his age.