Stickpucker
Playmaka
- Jan 18, 2014
- 16,266
- 39,509
Confirmed with Link: Jordan Staal and the Canes finalizing a 4 year/$2.9M AAV extension.
- Thread starter TheReelChuckFletcher
- Start date
WreckingCrew
Registered User
- Feb 4, 2015
- 13,486
- 41,182
Why? We just ask them to play the dump & chase & grind game anyway and wonder why we can't score half the time
Navin R Slavin
Fifth line center
We have among the highest percentage of high danger chances in the league. We need natural finishers. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.
cptjeff
Reprehensible User
We need more skill guys to be sure, but Staal was never, ever, ever going to be one of 'em.
cptjeff
Reprehensible User
High danger according to who and by what standard? Those metrics are generally about shot distance. Shot distance predicts the danger of a chance far less reliably than how much and how quickly the puck moves laterally before the shot- but that requires analysts watching every shot (and there are firms providing those numbers for $$) or puck tracking data, which teams have and the public does not. The public metrics only use shot distance, occasionally shot angle as well.
Count me skeptical that we're actually generating a lot of genuinely high danger chances rather than stuffing a lot of pucks against the pad of an already set goalie. Short range yes, but not high danger. The higher danger chance on those plays is to feed it to a guy muscling their way into the slot. Longer range chance, but forces the goalie to move. According to public shot quality metrics, a lower danger chance.
Navin R Slavin
Fifth line center
Even if you accept that idea that high danger scoring chances aren't a perfect metric, you must still accept that the Canes 5v5 results in goal differential are absolutely exceptional. Again: significantly changing the style of 5v5 is just as likely to weaken those results as it is to improve them.
So let's assume that you're right, and the true high danger chances are driven by puck movement. Where are you most likely to get good puck movement without giving up rushes the other way? The power play. Which is clearly what the Borg has decided as well by going back to TDA, who excels at exactly one thing: puck movement on the PP.
Better finishers, better puck movement on the PP. The 5v5 system is fine.
Boom Boom Apathy
I am the Professor. Deal with it!
- Sep 6, 2006
- 49,331
- 102,076
I don't know. A couple of years ago, people said that Rod would never take him off the 2nd line and would never take him off the PP, yet that happened.
Staal was our 2nd best center last season and Rod played him on the 3rd line with a couple of grinders (Martinook and Fast) and they were arguably, our best 5v5 line. KK got way easier matchups, more offensive zone starts, and better line mates and Staal still outscored him 5v5 and was just plain better. Staal was better in the playoffs as well.
Boom Boom Apathy
I am the Professor. Deal with it!
- Sep 6, 2006
- 49,331
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IIRC didn't Staal come into camp the fittest of all players two years ago? And it was Svech last year?
LakeLivin
Armchair Quarterback
I think this guy who posted over in the mb forum mostly nailed it. I can see the biggest issue between Staal and the Borg being term. Borg thinks 4 years is just too risky, Staal thinks he can probably contribute for that long.
Someone comes up with the idea of structuring the contract this way with the understanding that if Staal's game does degrade he'll retire (no cap penalty). Staal is a player I could see the organization having enough trust in to risk a handshake agreement of that sort. So if Staal plays for 3 years he gets paid at $3.6m but the cap hit is only $2.9m. Win win.
- Dec 6, 2011
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Svechhammer
THIS is hockey?
- Jun 8, 2017
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He just doesn't generate enough offense to win the best defensive award
- Dec 6, 2011
- 12,873
- 41,765
That's why I think it's genuinely impressive he even got the recognition of fourth. His best finish in over ten years and he was the same old Jordan with no more offense.
Svechhammer
THIS is hockey?
- Jun 8, 2017
- 25,498
- 92,980
I mean its absolutely ridiculous at this point how little the NHL as a league values defensive play. Last night seeing the Norris go to a guy who scores a lot of points but borderline sucks at actual defense was absurd. But at the same time, its very much helping us exploit that perception gap in the market when it comes to our roster makeup and contract value.
Nikishin Go Boom
Russian Bulldozer Consultent
- Jul 31, 2017
- 23,708
- 55,334
NHL is just following the trend of every other league. Other leagues have very little care for defense and have changed the rules over the last 20 years to increase offense. Scoring sells tickets. Scoring is the value
"borderline suck"....????? Time to call a spade a spade.....he flat out sucks at defense.
Joe McGrath
Registered User
- Oct 29, 2009
- 18,537
- 39,939
Normally I’d agree if it were close, but Karlsson had one less even strength point than McDavid. That’s just incredible. The 7th most ever by a defenseman.
He had 101 points on a team that scored 233 goals. As a defenseman. Complete insanity.
Those are video game numbers you just can’t ignore.
Apparently because the misinformed narrative about being a first option chip-n-chase system was either repeated enough to make some believe in it or some are just unwilling to admit mistakes.
Svechhammer
THIS is hockey?
- Jun 8, 2017
- 25,498
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Yeah but at the same time he sucks at actual DEFENSIVE responsibilities. In fact, you could argue he's sacrificing his ability to play defense in order to sell out and get more points. On a team that sucked miserably this year.
There absolutely should be an award for best offensive player from the blue line, but it isn't best defenseman.
Hmmm...that's only partially true. Yes, he's small so he loses more puck and physical battles than you'd like and his gap control can be inconsistent. But he actually blocks more shots than you'd think (about the same rate as Burns), uses his stick on D very well, is superb at loose puck retrievals and outlet passes from the DZ.
His D is not stellar overall but the all-too-common knee-jerk reaction to his defensive play rarely accounts for the multi-faceted responsibilities of a blueliner.
AhosDatsyukian
Registered User
- Sep 25, 2020
- 11,454
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It pisses me off more than it should that something that is supposed to be "awarded annually to the National Hockey League forward who demonstrates the most skill in the defensive component of the game" really goes to the "best 2 way forward" and even then it's extremely political and influenced by big names/markets.
If there was any integrity behind the voting consistent with the actual meaning of the award, Staal would have more wins than anyone the last 5+ years or so. Bergeron has been a much better player than Staal obviously no argument, but Staal is flat out better defensively. If the Selke was "best 2 way forward" ok I get it, Staal is not that. But it's "best defensive forward" and that is what Staal has been and proven in the regular season and playoffs the last several years.
But whatever
Even as a Canes fan, these comments puzzle me. How specifically is Staal "flat out better defensively" than Bergeron?
Svechhammer
THIS is hockey?
- Jun 8, 2017
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DaveG
Noted Jerk
what are the odds of enough people making that mistake enough to cost Jordan a spot as a finalist over Marner? pretty damn good I'd say.
cptjeff
Reprehensible User
Exactly one person made that mistake and it would move Staal's total vote count from 429 to 436 compared to Marner's 480. Zero ultimate impact, it's just funny.
DaveG
Noted Jerk
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