John Tavares Discussion

[DraftSchmaft]

Nobody objective can look at that Holl pick and think there's not a very high chance it is called, irrespective of what else occurred call-wise in the playoffs. Get real. Nobody even wants to defend how he fell like an idiot at the end?

Other picks by other teams actually needed their pick / non-call to finish the play too. JT didn't need it. We need to get these dumb players off of the team to win a cup. That's more important than debating if it was a penalty or not. We can't even cheat or escape detection properly

 

[PromisedLand]

so what is the expectation from Tavares next season?

Regular season

Playoffs (if Leafs make it)

3 more years left of his contract. For 11 AAV player what are teh expectations? his goal scoring rate seems to be declining. Also he can't skate as fast so.....

 

[Crosscrease14]

The pick penalty felt like the universe's way of telling Dubas he blew the expansion draft. Muzzin-Holl sucked outside the Canadian division and Holl was barely playable at times. Could've kept McCann and Kerfoot but hindsight 20/20. I know a lot of fans were vocal about this at the time.

 

[ULF_55]

so what is the expectation from Tavares next season?

Regular season

Playoffs (if Leafs make it)

3 more years left of his contract. For 11 AAV player what are teh expectations?

From what he's said about his off season training, that he feels lighter I would hope PPG.

Might really depend on LW.

Also, Leafs bottom 6 have to provide some offense, so the opposition can't just focus on the top 2 lines

Expressed greatest concern has been his footspeed. If he can mitigate that no reason he can't continue.

Do they report training camp weight?

 

[Gallagbi]

It was a very obvious pick that immediately created a scoring opportunity. Hard to not call it.

Sometimes a 'penalty' isn't called because it's well away from the play, and probably doesn't result in a chance. Sometimes it does, but too late to call, like the trip/inteference that led directly to the Cup winning goal. Easy to not call a meaningless trip well away from the play, and by the time the goal is scored it's way too late. (Personally I hate that, and i would have called the penalty, but I can see the logic.)

But the Holl pick was impossible to not call.

No more impossible than the GWG hold or the GTG play on Marner in Game 5. Id also say there were a number of more egrious picks by McD in thay first period on dumps where he travelled further and more blatantly out of his way to intrfere with a forecheck.

The Holl picks an issue because of the result, not the actual pick. If Tavares misses the net nobody remembers it.

At the end of the day, the call is fine but it wasnt the standard they set or continued to follow

 

[Mess]

You point out the issue though.

Refs calling what they want to call.

All comes down to whether you get caught or not on the illegal act, or whether you can get away with it.

"Yes your honour, I robbed the bank and got caught, but others also have robbed banks in the past and gotten away with it" is not a legal defense strategy. pointing out the inconsistency within the legal system.

Now Wayne Gretzky high sticking Dougie Gilmour in the face, and him bleeding is all the evidence Kerry Fraser (the Ref) should have needed to make the right call, and Leafs fans still upset to this day that Leafs got cheated have a strong case. Particular when Gretzky scores the game winning goal shortly thereafter.



The Holl interference penalty on that JT play was the opposite argument for Leaf fans today, claiming Leafs should have gotten away with it, fully knowing it was penalty and the correct call.

 

[Leaf Rocket]

Playoffs (if Leafs make it)

Get your food Skeletor


I think he needs a playmaking winger that'll help him IMO.

 

[PromisedLand]

Get your food Skeletor


I think he needs a playmaking winger that'll help him IMO.

Nylander is a decent playmaker. Tavares can't keep up with the speed of the game

 

[PromisedLand]

From what he's said about his off season training, that he feels lighter I would hope PPG.

Might really depend on LW.

Also, Leafs bottom 6 have to provide some offense, so the opposition can't just focus on the top 2 lines

Expressed greatest concern has been his footspeed. If he can mitigate that no reason he can't continue.

Do they report training camp weight?

Pat Maroon the fatty skates faster than Tavares. We'll see how Tavares' speed keeps up with the game. At 11 AAV how many players does Tavares need to prop up his game? Nylander is an elite player. Both of them should be able to carry someone else and get more production out of the 3rd guy.

Leafs bottom 6 is not as decent. There isn't cap left to have quality depth pieces.

IMO there are two ways to have success

1) Either team has elite goal tending, elite top6 and elite top4. This way the goalie will steal a few games

OR

2) average goal tending, elite top6, decent top4 and quality depth -> this way even if goal tending gives up a bit more goals the quality depth will be able to make up for it.

Leafs do not fit either of these 2 situations

 

[zeke]

Pat Maroon the fatty skates faster than Tavares. We'll see how Tavares' speed keeps up with the game. At 11 AAV how many players does Tavares need to prop up his game? Nylander is an elite player. Both of them should be able to carry someone else and get more production out of the 3rd guy.

Leafs bottom 6 is not as decent. There isn't cap left to have quality depth pieces.

IMO there are two ways to have success

1) Either team has elite goal tending, elite top6 and elite top4. This way the goalie will steal a few games

OR

2) average goal tending, elite top6, decent top4 and quality depth -> this way even if goal tending gives up a bit more goals the quality depth will be able to make up for it.

Leafs do not fit either of these 2 situations

So the Leafs have a trash 2nd line and a trash bottom 6.

How did they get 115pts exactly?

 

[ULF_55]

Pat Maroon the fatty skates faster than Tavares. We'll see how Tavares' speed keeps up with the game. At 11 AAV how many players does Tavares need to prop up his game? Nylander is an elite player. Both of them should be able to carry someone else and get more production out of the 3rd guy.

Leafs bottom 6 is not as decent. There isn't cap left to have quality depth pieces.

IMO there are two ways to have success

1) Either team has elite goal tending, elite top6 and elite top4. This way the goalie will steal a few games

OR

2) average goal tending, elite top6, decent top4 and quality depth -> this way even if goal tending gives up a bit more goals the quality depth will be able to make up for it.

Leafs do not fit either of these 2 situations

Goaltending is a complete unknown!

Actually, it is one reason I might watch more games this year.

I've found the team boring recently.

 

[Leaf Rocket]

Nylander is a decent playmaker. Tavares can't keep up with the speed of the game

Nylander is good but he isn't grinding his body style good at making plays for his teammates. Yes he can use his speed but that's not the type Tavares is usually used to tbh...he's always thrived with "power forward" style wingers... islanders always looked one for him, look at Beauvellieur and so many of their picks but most of them fizzle on the skill aspect. Some do decent but not great...

It's not about the speed aspect as much about what surrounds him tbh. Been watching Tavares since his Islanders and right now funny enough the exact reverse of what they needed in the past is going on with them again in Barzal.

 

[Racer88]

So the Leafs have a trash 2nd line and a trash bottom 6.

How did they get 115pts exactly?

The question should be, because they got 115 points why did they lose the 1st round for the 6th year in a row……..maybe those players that earned that 115 points didn’t live up to it in the playoffs yet again

 

[ULF_55]

The question should be, because they got 115 points why did they lose the 1st round for the 6th year in a row……..maybe those players that earned that 115 points didn’t live up to it in the playoffs yet again

Yeah, you'd like to see the superstars perform like superstars.

Two 1st. line All Stars should be outperforming everyone on the team with actual results.

 

[mapleleaf979]

The question should be, because they got 115 points why did they lose the 1st round for the 6th year in a row……..maybe those players that earned that 115 points didn’t live up to it in the playoffs yet again

I would say Dubas didnt live up to it. The D core isnt nearly good enough. Muzzin is washed up, skating is below average. Reilly is not a #1 dman on a cup team. Tavares is over paid and despite his points, he is struggling alot due to his foot speed, it depends on what type of game is being played, but in a fast paced game vs a team that back checks, Tavares can not get away from the pressure.

 

[zeke]

The question should be, because they got 115 points why did they lose the 1st round for the 6th year in a row……..maybe those players that earned that 115 points didn’t live up to it in the playoffs yet again

One of the best teams in the league needed a healthy helping hand from the refs to eke by the Leafs in 7gms.

Yeah, you'd like to see the superstars perform like superstars.

Two 1st. line All Stars should be outperforming everyone on the team with actual results.

Matthews 4gls 9pts ---- Kucherov 2gls 8pts
Marner 2gls 8pts ------- Palat 3gls 5pts
Nylander 3gls 7pts ----- Point 2gls 4pts
Tavares 3gls 6pts ------- Stamkos 2gls 4pts
Rielly 3gls 6pts --------- Hedman 2gls 7pts
Campbell .897 ---------- Vasilevskiy .897

$47.1 --------------------- $47.4

 

[socko]

Faster than Tavares and more physical than Nylander is casting a pretty wide net, should be able to find that.

That's like the same thing as saying more physical than Nylander.

 

[therealkoho]

No more impossible than the GWG hold or the GTG play on Marner in Game 5. Id also say there were a number of more egrious picks by McD in thay first period on dumps where he travelled further and more blatantly out of his way to intrfere with a forecheck.

The Holl picks an issue because of the result, not the actual pick. If Tavares misses the net nobody remembers it.

At the end of the day, the call is fine but it wasnt the standard they set or continued to follow

NO NO NO

It's all Holl's fault, it's what the truth is, it's how it will be remembered, Holl cost the Leafs the entire series with that one play

it wasn't the 5 holding calls they let go, the 7 interference calls they looked away from, the 3 slashes that created turnovers the 5 holding the stick over the course of the series that were ignored, it wasn't any of those that had any negative effect/affect on the outcome, it was only the Holl pick that cost the Buds and added to another lost year.

at least that's what I'm hearing

 

[haulinbass]

From what he's said about his off season training, that he feels lighter I would hope PPG.

Might really depend on LW.

Also, Leafs bottom 6 have to provide some offense, so the opposition can't just focus on the top 2 lines

Expressed greatest concern has been his footspeed. If he can mitigate that no reason he can't continue.

Do they report training camp weight?

Can't expect to get much contribution from bottom 6 when you have 40 million tied up into 4 forwards.

Will never get over the fact that this rebuild was going absolutely perfectly up until signing JT for 11 million and as a result pushing up the asking prices of the internal core players. That can't be undone now.

Might as well get assets for Matthews before he walks in UFA.

Going to be another long dark period in Toronto.

 

[ULF_55]

Can't expect to get much contribution from bottom 6 when you have 40 million tied up into 4 forwards.

Will never get over the fact that this rebuild was going absolutely perfectly up until signing JT for 11 million and as a result pushing up the asking prices of the internal core players. That can't be undone now.

Might as well get assets for Matthews before he walks in UFA.

Going to be another long dark period in Toronto.

Almost seems trading Matthews might be the best option.

Seeing posts where Leafs are giving up most all their better prospects, 3rd. best forward for one opportunity to win a round.

If their highest paid players, Tavares, Matthews, marner and Rielly aren't up to the task why keep them?

 

[zeke]

Can't expect to get much contribution from bottom 6 when you have 40 million tied up into 4 forwards.

Bottom 6es last year

TBL: 89gls, 189pts
TOR: 85gls, 179pts
COL: 71gls, 162pts

 

[Tak7]

I hope his footspeed doesn't fall off - there were stretches last season where he looked so slow and anonymous.

I really hope his defensive game is better too, if he has Nylander stapled to his line once again. The pair of them were net negatives at 5on5.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I'm surprised that there are people who don't get this.

Here's a straightforward explanation from 'Hockey101', which is geared towards newer fans, so the wording is pretty simple:

"The pick-and-roll is a key play in basketball. It is not a legal play in the NHL. A player cannot step in front of another that is not in possession of the puck in order to take him out of the play."

That play by Holl was clearly interference - about as obvious as can be.

What is that a quote from?

You know... it's just that when I watch the LEAFS players in the defensive zone, this "rule" that all of the other teams players have to "get out of the way" of our players doesn't ever seem to apply. I've never noticed other teams players diving out of the way of our players so as to not (lol) get interference penalties. What I see is an all out battle for space where everybody is beating the shit out of each other. Who knew... it's going to be an entire new game going forward when this new "get out of the way" rule starts getting implemented on literally any other player EVER other than Holl.

 

[keonsbitterness]

I'm surprised that there are people who don't get this.

Here's a straightforward explanation from 'Hockey101', which is geared towards newer fans, so the wording is pretty simple:

"The pick-and-roll is a key play in basketball. It is not a legal play in the NHL. A player cannot step in front of another that is not in possession of the puck in order to take him out of the play."

That play by Holl was clearly interference - about as obvious as can be.

Moving picks are also illegal in the NBA.

 

[Mess]

I'm surprised that there are people who don't get this.

Here's a straightforward explanation from 'Hockey101', which is geared towards newer fans, so the wording is pretty simple:

"The pick-and-roll is a key play in basketball. It is not a legal play in the NHL. A player cannot step in front of another that is not in possession of the puck in order to take him out of the play."

That play by Holl was clearly interference - about as obvious as can be.

You should also post the Hockey 101 rule for delayed penalty as it seems a lot of Fans believe Tavares goal was actually called back by the Refs,

The Refs hand at center went up, and he blew his whistle, calling the play dead well before Tavares ever shot the puck.. The fact that JT never heard it and continued with the play is irrelevant as is the result.

You can't score a goal after the Refs whistle has gone, particularly on a delayed penalty call that is triggered by possession of the puck by the offending team.

I'm surprised there is still so much confusion and controversy around a play that the Refs actually got right. Fans want to blame the Refs but Holl was the guilty party that got caught.