John Tavares Discussion

[francis246]

So a vague quote with no proof and a supposed well known locker room coke scandal that practically no one has heard of. Again, no proof for that either.

Just win Game 3. Hopefully Tavares shows up for that one.

If you’re a die heart fan and don’t know about Lupul, Kadri and some of the other guys off ice issues idk what to tell you. Go and do some research. Again mainly rumours though

 

[HamiltonNHL]

WOULD YOU SIGN TAVARES ? (Source)

No

No. Would make no sense.

You have Matthews and Tavares as your top 2 centers and you will win the cup one day.

Trade Marner. Sign Tavares.

Not trading Nylander.

Wrong as usual.

No.

I still don't go after Tavares.

Not Nylander.
And my next move is for a D.
So no.

 

[phillipmike]

Leaf fans are just spoiled.

Sundin's aged 28-31 regular season averages playing 20 minutes a night on the top line;

79 points in 82 games
Adjusted points: 0.96

Tavares' aged 28-31 regular season averages playing 18:45 minutes a night mostly on the 2nd line with inconsistent linemates;

80 points in 82 games
Adjusted points: 0.98

Sundin's aged 28-31 Playoffs: 0.84 points per game in 21:20 minutes a night
Tavares aged 28-31 Playoffs: 0.60 points per game in 19:19 minutes a night

Tavares is just as good in the regular season with less playing time and worse linemates. Sundin is clearly better in the playoffs but in that time frame Sundin only had one great playoffs in 2000-01 where he put up 13 points in 11 games. In that time frame he put up 19 points in 27 games in the other 3 seasons. Tavares had a playoffs robbed from him last season due to injury.

I'm not saying Tavares is as good or better than Sundin. But we have a player that would be a first line centre on 10+ teams playing on the 2nd line with no consistent LWer and his RWer is hit an miss outside of his first season when he had Marner. When Sundin played with guys who produced with him; Thomas, Roberts, Mogilny and even Tucker late in his career. He did play some shifts with Korolev, Hoglund and Berezin so he didnt always have great linemates but those guys produced at higher rates than most of Tavares' left wingers. But outside of his first year, Tavares had Nylander with mostly Kerfoot, Galchenyuk, and Mikheyev on the other side. And only this season is when Kerfoot had a good year.

The problem people have is what he is being paid. If he was being paid 750K, no one would have a problem with him. But it isnt his fault the GM signed him to that deal. And you can argue well there is a cap and that is problem. But Sundin took up more of the team's payroll in the same timeframe. Like it or not the payroll was set in those years and the limited resources used to sign Sundin is a similar concept in comparison to a cap.

Sundin's percentage of Payroll - aged 28-31:
1999-00: N/A ($7.5M and no payroll numbers)
2000-01: 18% ($7.5M of $41M)
2001-02: 15% ($7.5M of $51.5M)
2002-03: 14% ($9M of $65M)

Tavares percentage of the Cap - aged 28-31:
2018-19: 14% ($11M of $79.5M)
2019-20: 13.5% ($11M of $81.5M)
2020-21: 13.5% ($11M of $81.5M)
2021-22: 13.5% ($11M of $81.5M)

Sundin is revered for the Leafs team accomplishments when he had prime CuJo and Belfour. But if the Leafs couldnt get our of the first round with Sundin, he would get heat and probably would have been run out of town years ago.

Tavares is fine, what he i being paid in relation to the team's payroll/cap is also fine. The issue is the Leafs as a team havent produced in the playoffs and you guys need a scapegoat and based on AAV, Tavares is an easy target.

 

[TheProspector]

Toronto fans hate themselves.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Really man? That’s it? Matthews pulled his pants down in front of a security guard. Does that really matter to you? I know it doesn’t to me and I wouldn’t trade Matthews for anyone in this league practically.

Kadri wasn't traded because of that. He was traded because, after two playoff suspensions, they felt he couldn't be trusted on-ice.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Kadri wasn't traded because of that. He was traded because, after two playoff suspensions, they felt he couldn't be trusted on-ice.

Wasn't he suspended in the playoffs for Colorado too?

 

[hoglund]

Toronto fans hate themselves.

They do, why? I'm a Leafs' fan and I don't hate myself.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Wasn't he suspended in the playoffs for Colorado too?

Forgot about that. If it happens again, he could literally be the first player fired into the sun.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Kadri wasn't traded because of that. He was traded because, after two playoff suspensions, they felt he couldn't be trusted on-ice.

He was suspended for 8 playoff games last year after hitting Faulk in the head with a check.

Seems like we were right about not being able to control himself. That would have made it playoff suspensions in 3/4 last playoffs. What happens if he does it again? He probably would be suspended for the rest of the playoffs.

We can't afford players who go rogue. That includes Simmonds and Clifford. The fact that Kadri has more skill doesn't change the fact.

 

[kevsh]

There's no way to know that. Plenty of players waive when it becomes clear the team no longer wants them. Don't think JT wants to be remembered as a burden to the team

No chance. As I've pointed out before, only if Toronto is out of the playoffs come trade deadline in his last season, maybe he waives to go to a contender.

But even if you believe Tavares will waive out of pride, I don't think Dubas would even approach him. Considering how loyal Dubas has been to his core, and the fact he was the one that pitched Tavares in the first place, that would be one hell of a conversation.

I will change my tune if the day comes the captaincy is removed from his sweater. As it is, he probably should have offered to give it to Matthews by now as it is clearly Auston's team. (Plus, if he as any self-awareness he'd realize his canned, monotone personality does not inspire anyone). If Tavares gives the C up on his own, maybe I can see him moving on willingly. If it's stripped from him, maybe he'll want out. I don't see either happening though.

As for the burden, if that's his thinking then he's a burden at his cap hit anywhere he goes. If Toronto has to retain, then he's a burden in absentia.

 

[authentic]

Tavares career averages is around 30 goals/80 points per season.

But when he was given that 11mil x 7 contract, the argument wasn't "Yay, a ppg player".

No. Not even close.

The argument was "If Tavares was a 30 goal/80 point player as THE guy playing with stiffs, what's going to happen when he's the sheltered 2nd line center playing with superstars?"

THAT was the argument.

And his first year here was the expectation. But that expectation was not for merely ONE year. No, it was supposed to be for *most* of his contract. The last year or two he might revert back to that 30 goal/80 point guy.

What has happened is nothing short of a disaster. We had ONE year of him as an 11 million dollar player. ONE. He then quickly reverted to a 30 goal ppg player. And now is quickly dropping even below career averages.

For the vast majority of star players, this decline begins mid 30's. Not 29. It's just a disaster.

You really thought he was going to score 40-50 every year into his early 30s?

 

[Jojalu]

I love the extremes.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

11 million in my opinion is not a discount. That sharks thing is such bs

He would’ve went from being overpaid to the biggest albatross in the league.

A “discount” would’ve been 9.5 x 7.

As for the C…..this is Austons team. Rielly has a bigger presence. Marner is the heartbeat. Tavares is “captain”

I'm guessing a big reason JT was given the C is so the other younger guys could focus on their game without that added pressure.

 

[34]

WOULD YOU SIGN TAVARES ? (Source)








Wrong as usual.

This post was almost 6 years ago. Tavares is awful now.

 

[Apex Predator]

I know Tavares hasn’t looked great at times throughout the season but he’s not replacement level that’s insane.

 

[Mr Bill Waters]

You really think that Tavares is just gonna lay down like that and let this team get reamed by Tampa? He'll arrive big time next game (and if not Matthews will carry us to round two). Look for 91 to make a big impact this cup run one way or another. Tavares was a smart signing by Duby. He is a hedge against Matthews walking in UFA. This team would lack serious depth if it wasn't for JT. PPG centers don't grow on trees. Is this fan base forgetting how hard they are to acquire? Spoilt rotten. He is a fine leader. Remember the team meeting last summer? It was held at JT's cottage, not Matthews'. He is our leader for 3 more years (then he'll probably take a hometown discount at league min ala Spezza) HE WANTS TO WIN HERE THAT"S WHY HE SIGNED HERE.

 

[34]

He's just a replacement level player at this point. That concussion he took last playoffs was harsh AF. It dropped him from a 7.5 to a 5. Average, as average could be. For a whole lotta money and cap space. How many millions? Wasted. Invisible. Discuss...

Tavares is really bad. He should not be on the PP.

 

[Mr Bill Waters]

You really think that Tavares is just gonna lay down like that and let this team get reamed by Tampa? He'll arrive big time next game (and if not Matthews will carry us to round two). Look for 91 to make a big impact this cup run one way or another. Tavares was a smart signing by Duby. He is a hedge against Matthews walking in UFA. This team would lack serious depth if it wasn't for JT. PPG centers don't grow on trees. Is this fan base forgetting how hard they are to acquire? Spoilt rotten. He is a fine leader. Remember the team meeting last summer? It was held at JT's cottage, not Matthews'. He is our leader for 3 more years (then he'll probably take a hometown discount at league min ala Spezza) HE WANTS TO WIN HERE THAT"S WHY HE SIGNED HERE.

 

[francis246]

Tavares is really bad. He should not be on the PP.

So who’s gonna win those faceoffs and win the down low battles so we can keep possession and score?

Tavares is so critical to our Power Play. It’s his 5 on 5 play that needs to improve a bit.

I think a lot of people downplay the draw wins and board battles he always wins,

 

[DarkKnight]

WOULD YOU SIGN TAVARES ? (Source)








Wrong as usual.

”.. if it meant having to trade Nylander or Marner for picks or blu chip D prospect to make the cap work?”

This was the thread question I answered NO too, not sure what tortured point you’re badly attempting to make here but it’s pretty lame ?

 

[Leafblooded]

Ppg, two way centers that are elite on faceoffs are replacement level players now?

For 11 million dollars, he could be replaced by committee by 2-3 dudes that would be a whole lot more useful than having just one underperforming, aging and overpaid John Tavares

 

[Leafblooded]

Let alone the lack of intensity, lack of drive, foot speed slower than Jason Allison, lack of leadership, lack of personality, declining hockey sense, declining stick work, declining vision... I know you guys think I'm crazy for calling him a replacement level player. I understand he's better than Nice Petan. I understand what a replacement level player is. Yet, I have to double down and argue that in fact, if JT wasn't on this team, he could be easily replaced by committee with much better results per cap dollar spent. Even if he's an elite second line centre (which he's not, he's average), he's paid literally more than most 2nd lines put together.

Replacement level means he can easily be replaced. And you can't remove cap hit from this equation, just to suit your standard definition of replacement.

 

[3blizzard4]

Is this the thread where I can complain about Tavares?

 

[Leafblooded]

I've been ragging on him since he was an Islander. The signing was awful and I said it then. He has not once lived up to this 11m cap hit. I've generally hated his contribution since he came to the leafs. Kadri was better and half the price, and save for a few standout moments in the regular season, JT has just been a passenger.

His decline is ongoing, steeply dropping his already questionable value and his cap hit is a negative contribution to the team's success. If the Leafs manage to win, it will be in spite of JT. Imagine the team we could assemble if that 11 m of cap space wasn't taken up by one aging veteran.

 

[3blizzard4]

It’s funny reading Tampa forum. They are seriously wondering where JT is.