Tribute John Tavares Discussion Thread

[Dekes For Days]

Tavares is a disaster. Absolute zero leadership.

You have absolutely zero idea what kind of leadership he brings. He is not a disaster; he's a huge part of the team.

 

[TmlHockeyFan]

Team is a disaster. Don't think it falls on one person in the team but everyone.

Don't think the results would be different even if we had another captain.

 

[Stephen]

Fine with JT as a player. He’s having a bad year but so is 75% of the team. Good player, still an elite centre.

Take the C off though. That belongs to Matthews. The most catastrophic season of pathetic efforts is happening on his watch and he has no answers. If he can’t do it, give it to someone who can actually lead the boys and make them look like they give a f*ck. And if Matthews can’t do it then just fold the f*ckin franchise tbh.

Basically. Tavares could wear an A and give stock answers, but as the captain, it's just not working.

The Tavares branding looks so good on paper. Hometown kid, comes home, scores almost 50 goals and is named captain. But the on ice reality is so disconnected from that.

 

[dubplatepressure]

Basically. Tavares could wear an A and give stock answers, but as the captain, it's just not working.

The Tavares branding looks so good on paper. Hometown kid, comes home, scores almost 50 goals and is named captain. But the on ice reality is so disconnected from that.

I find it odd how established your opinion seems to be given the lack of evidence that Tavares is anything but a great leader. The team sucks. He cannot carry everyone. Hes likely also playing through injury.

 

[Stephen]

You have absolutely zero idea what kind of leadership he brings. He is not a disaster; he's a huge part of the team.

I can't believe that any team that can't find the motivation to rip 25 shots on a practice goalie at home on a Saturday night has any leadership.

This is the most unprofessional group of Leafs of all time. They play their minds out in the Penguins game and they thought it was mission accomplished, when that's how they actually need to play every night.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

I’m not going to comment on his leadership because none of us truly know what takes place behind closed doors, but I do think Tavares gets a free pass for his play because of his play last playoffs. He was one of the few forwards playing with heart, earning his keep around the oppositions crease and crashing the net.

I also think he’s not 100% healthy this season.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I can't believe that any team that can't find the motivation to rip 25 shots on a practice goalie at home on a Saturday night has any leadership.

Good leadership doesn't mean nothing bad ever happens. You have zero idea what kind of leadership Tavares brings, or the impact.

This is the most unprofessional group of Leafs of all time.

Not even close.

They play their minds out in the Penguins game and they thought it was mission accomplished, when that's how they actually need to play every night.

Zero teams in the history of the league have ever played like that every night.

 

[Stephen]

Good leadership doesn't mean nothing bad ever happens. You have zero idea what kind of leadership Tavares brings, or the impact.

Not even close.

Zero teams in the history of the league have ever played like that every night.

If you're curious enough to check out more out of town games, you'd be surprised how hard many teams play every single night. Maybe not the A game every night, but the B game isn't significantly worse.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If you're curious enough to check out more out of town games, you'd be surprised how hard many teams play every single night.

I watch plenty of out of town games, and see the exact same things that people go off the deep end about here.

Maybe not the A game every night, but the B game isn't significantly worse.

Was it their A game or their B game when the two best teams in the league got stomped 7-3 and 9-3 by worse teams than we did last night?

 

[Stephen]

I watch plenty of out of town games, and see the exact same things that people go off the deep end about here.

Was it their A game or their B game when the two best teams in the league got stomped 7-3 and 9-3 by worse teams than we did last night?

What's the saying, small sample size?

 

[Gallagbi]

I just don't get how people can blame this on Tavares. We got stomped with Gilmour and Clark as captains, Sundin lead a largely lifeless Leafs team in the mid 90s. These are the captain's people want (and understably so)

Tavares gives a great effort nightly and leads by example. Sadly not many follow suit

 

[Droughtof67]

You have absolutely zero idea what kind of leadership he brings. He is not a disaster; he's a huge part of the team.

The team is a disaster, so I guess that makes him the leader of a disaster. You honestly believe it’s a coincidence the islanders turned it around once he left and Toronto started trending downwards ?

 

[Boxscore]

Lol, what? Moving a goaltender when you have 3 is not the same as moving an elite forward when you have 3. You play 12 forwards every night. You only play 1 goalie.

Also, they haven't moved anybody yet. They've literally kept all 3.

My point was--situations change and they dictate what you need to do as a team. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Dekes For Days]

What's the saying, small sample size?

What your saying? "Every night"?

when that's how they actually need to play every night.

How about Columbus losing their last 8 games in the middle of a playoff race? Was that their A game or their B game?
How about Florida with 4 wins in their last 13 games since the all star break in the middle of a playoff race? A game or B game?
How about Pittsburgh getting spanked by us the other night? Was that their A game or their B game?
How about Washington getting spanked 7-2 by Philly last week and having 1 win in their last 7 games? A game or B game?
How about Tampa at the beginning of the year? A game or B game?
How about reigning cup champs St Louis, who just went through a stretch with 2 wins in 12 games. A game or B game?

 

[Dekes For Days]

You honestly believe it’s a coincidence the islanders turned it around once he left and Toronto started trending downwards ?

Toronto didn't start trending downward. They improved last year; just didn't get the shootout points.

The Islanders turned it around because they got amazing goaltending, not because they lost Tavares. And exactly how much they "turned it around" is still very much in question.

 

[Dekes For Days]

My point was--situations change and they dictate what you need to do as a team. Nothing more, nothing less.

Your point didn't match your example, because having 3 goalies necessitates moves that having 3 forwards does not, and despite this, there have been no moves with those goalies.

Nothing has changed that has made trading any of the big 4 a viable or beneficial option. If anything, this would be the worst time to trade them.

 

[HC7]

Tavares is the worst. The way he left Barrie out to dry by himself after that hit sent a message for the rest of the game to not only the Canes, but the Leafs as well.

If I'm Dubas the C comes off during the intermission. That's so incredibly embarrassing that he did absolutely nothing.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

Let's say they didn't sign Tavares what other defenseman would you have wanted them to sign if you are talking about a big name. Drew Doughty had signed an 8 year extension with the Kings and the only other big name that might have became a UFA was Karlsson, however he waited until he was allowed to sign an 8 year extension with the Sharks and this year he was horrible and is now out for the season due to injury.

I honestly would have rather waited. Hindsight is 20/20 so it might be unfair to say this, but in the end, we got just as far with JT as we did without him. Before JT we always had fire power. Nylander as a second line center would have been fine (although I think Babcock was highly against that idea) so then you wait patiently for the right help on the backend. Even if we don't add one big UFA D men, I think I would still rather have that cap go to 2 quality ones.

 

[Boxscore]

I just don't get how people can blame this on Tavares. We got stomped with Gilmour and Clark as captains, Sundin lead a largely lifeless Leafs team in the mid 90s. These are the captain's people want (and understably so)

Yes and no. For one, I don't think Tavares is to blame for everything--as a person or player. But, the Leafs decision to make this Tavares' team and dedicate 11 mil in cap space to another offensive forward is a BIG problem--Tavares just happens to be the player they spent their money on... and they named him captain... so he will take blame. Is SOME of it unjust? Yes, probably. But it doesn't help that he signed for such a large number, which in turn made the young Leafs want their large number too.

The problem comparing Tavares to those other Leafs is:

A) Gilmour, Clark and Sundin were all more "inspirational leaders" who were gritty and heart and soul players. Tavares is quiet and isn't a "rah rah" type of guy who will go out and throw a big hit to wake the team up.

B) We are in a salary cap era, which changes everything. If signing Gilmour, Clark or Sundin meant you didn't have any more money left over to round out your team, they ALL would have came under much more scrutiny.

C) Those Leafs teams--on paper--were far from the most talented team on the ice each night. Those Leafs teams overachieved because players like Clark and Gilmour battled with heart and got dirty. That whole 92-93 team was a heart and soul group. The Sundin-led Leafs were notoriously under-manned with high-end talent. Mats pretty much carried those clubs on his back. None of those Leafs teams were as talented as some of the better teams in the NHL. This version of the Leafs is among the most talented on the planet (on paper). They are loaded with high-end talent--Tavares, Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Barrie, Rielly, etc. The problem is they are built poorly, are very one-dimensional, lack defense, and play soft hockey. When you lose to the Canes and only get 7 shots in a period when you're shooting on a 42-year-old bar league goalie with a kidney transplant that hasn't played since 2015 and you lose--it's an awful look. And Tavares is the captain--so, yeah, he'll be called out. It comes with the job.

Tavares gives a great effort nightly and leads by example. Sadly not many follow suit

Generally speaking, I do think Tavares gives a lot of effort. Tavares has faults to his game, but work ethic and professionalism aren't two of them--he's a professional and he tries. That said, the Leafs either had to NOT sign Tavares and put the 11 mil elsewhere--or they needed to sign Tavares and move 1 or 2 of the kids (say Marner and Kapanen) to improve their defense. They didn't and now they are being exposed. When teams are exposed, the blame usually goes to these people in order...

1. Coach--A HHOF coach in Babcock was already fired this season, so you can't blame him now. Keefe looks no better--actually worse. Are the Leafs going to fire him too?

2. Captain--When a team is exposed on the ice and underachieves compared to their "talent level" the captain takes blame after the coach. He is the "leader" among the players--the lifeline from the coaching staff and management to the players. When teams look uninspired, the coach then the captain shoulder a lot of blame. Right or wrong it's hockey, and it'd been like this forever.

3. The Goalies--Yes, the goaltending has been inconsistent this year. Andersen and Co. do deserve some blame. How do you fix that now?

4. The Star Players--Do Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Barrie, etc. deserve blame? Heck yes! All those young kids demanded elite money, now they need to deliver on their end and play up to their contracts. It's not easy making more than Crosby, Kane, Pastrnak, MacKinnon and Ovie, when you can't back it up night after night. But they made their beds.

5. The GM--Even though the GM generally deserves more blame then they get--they are usually last in line because they get the most leash. Mainly because, these days, all BIG personnel moves are signed off and debated with ownership. So if a big UFA is brought in, or coaches fires, or players signed to large money--ownership usually puts their blessing on it--meaning their fingerprints are on there. Blaming the GM sometimes is like blaming yourself, and ownership is not fond of doing that in many cases. But, if you ask me, Shanahan deserves the MOST blame out of any single person in the entire organization for this--more so than Dubas--who also deserves a TON of blame.

 

[Ignatius Reilly]

Tavares is the worst. The way he left Barrie out to dry by himself after that hit sent a message for the rest of the game to not only the Canes, but the Leafs as well.

If I'm Dubas the C comes off during the intermission. That's so incredibly embarrassing that he did absolutely nothing.

I didn't like that when I saw it either.

But I wouldn't go off the deep end overreacting about it.

JT's not perfect, no one is. If we were the first team to give him the C, I'd be more open to thinking it could be a mistake, but Islanders chose him too. I think he's really good overall, and there's no one else that deserved it more. Reilly came close. Marner and Matthews? Young and full of skill - not leaders.

As for the value of his contract and how it will look years from now, I don't know. Neither does anyone else. Because of his slower game, he should last longer than average but... no one actually knows at this point.

 

[Gallagbi]

Yes and no. For one, I don't think Tavares is to blame for everything--as a person or player. But, the Leafs decision to make this Tavares' team and dedicate 11 mil in cap space to another offense forward is a BIG problem--Tavares just happens to be the player they spent their money on... and they named him captain... so he will take blame. Is SOME of it unjust? Yes, probably. But it doesn't help that he signed for such a large number, which in turn made the young Leafs want their large number too.

The problem comparing Tavares to those other Leafs is:

A) Gilmour, Clark and Sundin were all more "inspirational leaders" who were gritty and heart and soul players. Tavares is quite and isn't a "rah rah" type of guy who will go out and throw a big hit to wake the team up.

B) We are in a salary cap era, which changes everything. If signing Gilmour, Clark or Sundin meant you didn't have any more money left over to round out your team, they ALL would have came under much more scrutiny.

C) Those Leafs teams--on paper--were far from the most talented team on the ice each night. Those Leafs teams overachieved because players like Clark and Gilmour battled with heart and got dirty. That whole 92-93 team was a heart and soul group. The Sundin-led Leafs were notoriously under-manned with high-end talent. Mats pretty much carried those clubs on his back. None of those Leafs teams were as talented as some of the better teams in the NHL. This version of the Leafs is among the most talented on the planet (on paper). They are loaded with high-end talent--Tavares, Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Barrie, Rielly, etc. The problem is they are build poorly, are very one-dimensional, lack defense, and play soft hockey. When you lose to the Canes and only get 7 shots in a period when you're shooting on a 42-year-old bar league goalie with a kidney transplant that hasn't played since 2015 and you lose--it's an awful look. And Tavares is the captain--so, yeah, he'll be called out. It comes with the job.

The teams you remember overachieved, others underachieved - especially under Gilmour and Sundin as captains. We're in a cap era now, but Clark "coming home" also butchered this franchise for a half decade when we re-acquired him from the Isles.

The problem is people remember the wins and not the losses when they look back on the others. They remember Sundin's OT heroics and not the 6-shot game vs. NJ or the cap team losing important games to NYI down the stretch eventually costing them the playoffs.

They remember Gilmour in 92/93, not running out of gas basically after that.

Generally speaking, I do think Tavares gives a lot of effort. Tavares has faults to his game, but work ethic and professionalism aren't two of them--he's a professional and he tries. That said, the Leafs either had to NOT sign Tavares and put the 11 mil elsewhere--or they needed to sign Tavares and move 1 or 2 of the kids (say Marner and Kapanen) to improve their defense. They didn't and now they are being exposed. When teams are exposed, the blame usually goes to these people in order...

1. Coach--A HHOF coach in Babcock was already fired this season, so you can't blame him now. Keefe looks no better--actually worse. Are the Leafs going to fire him too?

2. Captain--When a team is exposed on the ice and underachieves compared to their "talent level" the captain takes blame after the coach. He is the "leader" among the players--the lifeline from the coaching staff and management to the players. When teams look uninspired, the coach then the captain shoulder a lot of blame. Right or wrong it's hockey, and it'd been like this forever.

3. The Goalies--Yes, the goaltending has been inconsistent this year. Andersen and Co. do deserve some blame. How do you fix that now?

4. The Star Players--Do Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Barrie, etc. deserve blame? Heck yes! All those young kids demanded elite money, now they need to deliver on their end and play up to their contracts. It's not easy making more than Crosby, Kane, Pastrnak, MacKinnon and Ovie, when you can't back it up night after night. But they made their beds.

5. The GM--Even though the GM generally deserves more blame then they get--they are usually last in line because they get the most leash. Mainly because, these days, all BIG personnel moves are signed off and debated with ownership. So if a big UFA is brought in, or coaches fires, or players signed to large money--ownership usually puts their blessing on it--meaning their fingerprints are on there. Blaming the GM sometimes is like blaming yourself, and ownership is not fond of doing that in many cases. But, if you ask me, Shanahan deserves the MOST blame out of any single person in the entire organization for this.

Tavares opens up options, he doesn't close them. He didn't force this team to sign highly priced RFAs for record deals, his situation was always different as an UFA.

There's a lot of issues on this team right now, as you mention. I don't see one of the guys who battles nightly and leads by example as high on the list. Marner? Yup. Fred? Yup. The D? Yup.

 

[Boxscore]

The teams you remember overachieved, others underachieved - especially under Gilmour and Sundin as captains. We're in a cap era now, but Clark "coming home" also butchered this franchise for a half decade when we re-acquired him from the Isles.

The problem is people remember the wins and not the losses when they look back on the others. They remember Sundin's OT heroics and not the 6-shot game vs. NJ or the cap team losing important games to NYI down the stretch eventually costing them the playoffs.

They remember Gilmour in 92/93, not running out of gas basically after that.

Yes, fans often remember the good and sentimental warm and fuzzies--forgetting some of the frustrations at the time. But, re-acquiring Clark did not "butcher" the franchise. There was no salary cap--the Leafs COULD have spent as much as they wanted to in order to improve the team. Plus, ticket prices weren't what they are today in the mid-90's--I know, I used to visit Toronto and go to ML Gardens. Also, there was no social media and players weren't under daily scrutiny the way they are today.

Tavares opens up options, he doesn't close them. He didn't force this team to sign highly priced RFAs for record deals, his situation was always different as an UFA.

In a salary cap league, allocating 11 mil of your cap hit to Tavares (when you still need to sign all of your own RFA's) does limit options. The only way it doesn't is if you are going to parlay--at the very least--a Marner into another top-end D, like the Jackets did when they traded Johansen to the Preds for Jones. Tavares would have been a much better signing if the Leafs cashed in some of their young forwards for better D and depth, but they didn't.

Also, what in the world did you expect the Tavares signing would do to the RFA's? The Leafs gave him the largest cap hit in the entire NHL behind Connor McDavid. You think the kids are all now going to "settle for less" because the team spent a ton on Tavares in the free agent market? It doesn't work like that--that's just reality.

There's a lot of issues on this team right now, as you mention. I don't see one of the guys who battles nightly and leads by example as high on the list. Marner? Yup. Fred? Yup. The D? Yup.

Yes, I agree with you 100%. Marner wanted a long, drawn out contract negotiation. He wanted elite money--now he needs to earn it. Same with the rest. There's a lot of blame to go around, you are correct--I won't dispute that at all.

 

[Gallagbi]

Yes, fans often remember the good and sentimental warm and fuzzies--forgetting some of the frustrations at the time. But, re-acquiring Clark did not "butcher" the franchise. There was no salary cap--the Leafs COULD have spent as much as they wanted to in order to improve the team. Plus, ticket prices weren't what they are today in the mid-90's--I know, I used to visit Toronto and go to ML Gardens. Also, there was no social media and players weren't under daily scrutiny the way they are today.

We lost a top 5 pick (Lou) and a top pairing defenseman to get a broken down Wendel. It lead to a quick first round exit vs. a backup goalie followed by two straight seasons of missing the playoffs. Yeah, it hurt us.

In a salary cap league, allocating 11 mil of your cap hit to Tavares (when you still need to sign all of your own RFA's) does limit options. The only way it doesn't is if you are going to parlay--at the very least--a Marner into another top-end D, like the Jackets did when they traded Johansen to the Preds for Jones. Tavares would have been a much better signing if the Leafs cashed in some of their young forwards for better D and depth, but they didn't.

Also, what in the world did you expect the Tavares signing would do to the RFA's? The Leafs gave him the largest cap hit in the entire NHL behind Connor McDavid. You think the kids are all now going to "settle for less" because the team spent a ton on Tavares in the free agent market? It doesn't work like that--that's just reality.

It's always worked like that. We gave record setting deals to players who never accomplished anything without them being on the free market.

 

[Stringer Bell]

It wouldn't make a difference at this moment right now as he is injured anyway, but I think getting a full 60 or so games of Tavares as captain to me makes me feel that Morgan Rielly is truly the one who deserved and deserves the C. He may not be super emotional either, or super physical, and is having a bad year...but he is far more competitive and I imagine vocal in the dressing room...and when you hear his responses to the media, while...still guarded and professional he comes across as way less cliche. Like, Tavares postgame media yesterday was like...he has no idea what to do.

 

[Stand Witness]

For this team, would we rather:

Kadri + Bozak + Brown (11.6M) or Tavares (11M).

That assumes not Kerfoot or Barrie acquisitions. Zaitsev and Marleau are still traded but instead of Brown it costed Bracco or Johnsson (you can decide which of the two would have got it done last summer).