Tribute John Tavares appreciation thread

[LeafsNation75]

The Leafs sucked then and as you said he had a team he could be traded to.

His approved trade list of other teams included Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles, Minnesota, New York Rangers, and Philadelphia. With the exception of the Wild those were big market teams and the thought was Kessel included them because he didn't think they could take on his contract, because he always wanted to stay in Toronto. Considering how his time with Boston ended did he really think the Bruins would want him back? Since Pittsburgh was the only team on his list who had trade talks with Dubas while he was the co-interim GM, he couldn't play other teams against each other with better offers.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I get what you’re saying but you’re thinking in hypotheticals. Trading Tavares is not a guarantee our team improves. In fact if you look at the history of the NHL, the more cap space you have the more likely you are to make a horrible signing in UFA.

Let me ask you, is forcing a Tavares trade worth ruining the culture they’ve built? Also Tavares is still valuable and consistent. Who cares if he’s slow? He still puts up 80ish points a year. You’re not going to find that consistency in another player at a cheaper cost.

Even Bo Horvat, he’s a 50 point guy most years.

Yes, it can happen if the player agrees. What if the player doesn't agree?

Horvat is having a career year, I don't think this would be the norm to expect moving forward. If you were able to get Horvat in place at 7-7.5M for 7 years let's say, 3.5-4M extra to improve the roster, just don't sign bad players

Could Horvat's 50-60 pts + another wing outweigh JT at 70-80 points? Maybe. It's no guarantee. The other thing which we saw in the Montreal series is when 1 guy eats up so much of the cap and goes down to injury, chances are there isn't an adequate back up around.

ACC1224 - when I said it would be a messy divorce...how messy you willing to get? Scratch the guy until they agree to trade? I can't recall those names as much.

One thing is for sure, with Dubas here, JT is very unlikely to be moved, he doesn't have that side to him. I happen to think you could probably shuffle a couple guys on this roster and may do better. No one seems willing to change the formula for...reasons though.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Horvat is having a career year, I don't think this would be the norm to expect moving forward. If you were able to get Horvat in place at 7-7.5M for 7 years let's say, 3.5-4M extra to improve the roster, just don't sign bad players

Could Horvat's 50-60 pts + another wing outweigh JT at 70-80 points? Maybe. It's no guarantee. The other thing which we saw in the Montreal series is when 1 guy eats up so much of the cap and goes down to injury, chances are there isn't an adequate back up around.

ACC1224 - when I said it would be a messy divorce...how messy you willing to get? Scratch the guy until they agree to trade? I can't recall those names as much.

One thing is for sure, with Dubas here, JT is very unlikely to be moved, he doesn't have that side to him. I happen to think you could probably shuffle a couple guys on this roster and may do better. No one seems willing to change the formula for...reasons though.

Isn't Nazem Kadri on pace for less points compared to last year, when he was having a career year in the final year of his previous contract before he was a UFA.

 

[LeafsNation75]

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[WTFMAN99]

Isn't Nazem Kadri on pace for less points compared to last year, when he was having a career year in the final year of his previous contract before he was a UFA.

That is usually how it happens.

Guys crush it heading into UFA, better to look at the career average than expect them to continue the career year pace.

Kadri is on pace for 62 or 63 points which is pretty normal for him, seems like a 50-65 point guy on a year to year basis.

 

[LeafsNation75]

That is usually how it happens.

Guys crush it heading into UFA, better to look at the career average than expect them to continue the career year pace.

Kadri is on pace for 62 or 63 points which is pretty normal for him, seems like a 50-65 point guy on a year to year basis.

Tavares first year with the Leafs he was the exception. He had 47 goals and 88 points in 82 games played during the 2018-19 Season, which were brand new season highs for him.

 

[LeafsNation75]

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[ACC1224]

Horvat is having a career year, I don't think this would be the norm to expect moving forward. If you were able to get Horvat in place at 7-7.5M for 7 years let's say, 3.5-4M extra to improve the roster, just don't sign bad players

Could Horvat's 50-60 pts + another wing outweigh JT at 70-80 points? Maybe. It's no guarantee. The other thing which we saw in the Montreal series is when 1 guy eats up so much of the cap and goes down to injury, chances are there isn't an adequate back up around.

ACC1224 - when I said it would be a messy divorce...how messy you willing to get? Scratch the guy until they agree to trade? I can't recall those names as much.

One thing is for sure, with Dubas here, JT is very unlikely to be moved, he doesn't have that side to him. I happen to think you could probably shuffle a couple guys on this roster and may do better. No one seems willing to change the formula for...reasons though.

All scratching will do is put a bunch of dead cap in the press box. No contending team is going to go to those lengths.
Only way IMO he leaves is if they ask and he agrees. I can't see why he would agree though.

No matter how it plays out they had better not create another Sundin situation.

 

[LeafsNation75]

All scratching will do is put a bunch of dead cap in the press box. No contending team is going to go to those lengths.
Only way IMO he leaves is if they ask and he agrees. I can't see why he would agree though.

No matter how it plays out they had better not create another Sundin situation.

Tavares does have a full NMC in his contract. However, I do agree that chances are he won't ever asked to be traded.

 

[WTFMAN99]

All scratching will do is put a bunch of dead cap in the press box. No contending team is going to go to those lengths.
Only way IMO he leaves is if they ask and he agrees. I can't see why he would agree though.

No matter how it plays out they had better not create another Sundin situation.

I think what it came down to, even in regards to other guys like Hartnell and McDonagh even if they didn't think about leaving before...management tells you they wanna move you...do you wanna stay where you're not wanted?

A lot of guys say that in players tribune articles, they waived because they weren't wanted.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I think what it came down to, even in regards to other guys like Hartnell and McDonagh even if they didn't think about leaving before...management tells you they wanna move you...do you wanna stay where you're not wanted?

A lot of guys say that in players tribune articles, they waived because they weren't wanted.

Look at Nazem Kadri as another example. He rejected that original trade to Calgary which would have seen the Leafs get TJ Brodie 1 year earlier. That's when Kyle Dubas traded him to Colorado for Tyson Barrie and Alex Kerfoot.

 

[ACC1224]

I think what it came down to, even in regards to other guys like Hartnell and McDonagh even if they didn't think about leaving before...management tells you they wanna move you...do you wanna stay where you're not wanted?

A lot of guys say that in players tribune articles, they waived because they weren't wanted.

I don't doubt that's the case but everyone's situation is different.
I'm guessing we don't hear much about guys that refuse to waive. I doubt that becomes public.

 

[francis246]

Isn't Nazem Kadri on pace for less points compared to last year, when he was having a career year in the final year of his previous contract before he was a UFA.

Yup that’s usually the norm after UFA’s sign and guess which UFA in the last 10 years production hasn’t dipped after signing a UFA contract. If you said John Tavares guess what you’re right! We got lucky, did we overpay slightly? Yes, but his production has remained the same and/or better since joining the leafs and there’s value in that.

I don't doubt that's the case but everyone's situation is different.
I'm guessing we don't hear much about guys that refuse to waive. I doubt that becomes public.

Not only that but usually they are traded before the NMC/NTC kicks in.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Yup that’s usually the norm after UFA’s sign and guess which UFA in the last 10 years production hasn’t dipped after signing a UFA contract. If you said John Tavares guess what you’re right! We got lucky, did we overpay slightly? Yes, but his production has remained the same and/or better since joining the leafs and there’s value in that.

Yes, I did say that Tavares was the one exception who signed as a UFA and his production hasn't dropped off.

Tavares first year with the Leafs he was the exception. He had 47 goals and 88 points in 82 games played during the 2018-19 Season, which were brand new season highs for him.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Look at Nazem Kadri as another example. He rejected that original trade to Calgary which would have seen the Leafs get TJ Brodie 1 year earlier. That's when Kyle Dubas traded him to Colorado for Tyson Barrie and Alex Kerfoot.

I don't doubt that's the case but everyone's situation is different.
I'm guessing we don't hear much about guys that refuse to waive. I doubt that becomes public.

Yep and then Sundin (plus the Muskoka 5 in general)

Brodie was apparently flattered enough to come after at least.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Brodie was apparently flattered enough to come after at least.

He was one of the first players to sign right away when free agency started on October 9, 2020.

 

[Gabriel426]

In your example are you assuming Horvat signs an extension with whatever team he gets traded to? Because one difference is Tavares made to July 1st and became a UFA. It wasn't just the Leafs who wanted to sign him and let's remember the Sharks offered him 8 years and $13 million AAV.

I remember Gord Miller saying that Tavares was the biggest free agent signing since Scott Niedermayer signed with the Ducks. So, someone like Horvat wouldn't be on the same level as a UFA if he becomes one compared to Tavares.

I am just pointing out Cap MGT. Not saying JT is a bad player now and he is pretty much PPG player. However, if there is a choice between say Horvat or any other C at 8mil plus another forward at 4mil Vs JT and Hunt or any other average fwd at 1mil. I am leaning toward two players making 8mil and 4mil than JT plus a fwd making 1mil.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I am just pointing out Cap MGT. Not saying JT is a bad player now and he is pretty much PPG player. However, if there is a choice between say Horvat or any other C at 8mil plus another forward at 4mil Vs JT and Hunt or any other average fwd at 1mil. I am leaning toward two players making 8mil and 4mil than JT plus a fwd making 1mil.

I agree that salary cap management is something all teams need to consider. However, wouldn't you also agree that the flat cap due to covid is a major reason why things have been different the past few years? Like I said before if that never happened wouldn't the Leafs have had more cap space which they were anticipating when they signed Tavares?

 

[Gabriel426]

I agree that salary cap management is something all teams need to consider. However, wouldn't you also agree that the flat cap due to covid is a major reason why things have been different the past few years? Like I said before if that never happened wouldn't the Leafs have had more cap space which they were anticipating when they signed Tavares?

Covid certainly played a factor but it applied to every teams in the league.
I think the fact that Leafs have three players who are top 7 in League salary will always force them to give up on those mid tier players.
Even if COVID didn't happen, how much would the cap be? I highly doubt it will be 90mil like some suggested and I think the cap was raising about 1.5-2mil a year before COVID. COVID happened in 2020, which is three off seasons ago and the cap did raised 2mil. In a way, even without COVID, the cap probably would at best be 2.5-4mil more. But you also need to put into consideration how much would Leafs need to pay for TJ and Reilly extension if is not for COVID.

 

[francis246]

Yes, I did say that Tavares was the one exception who signed as a UFA and his production hasn't dropped off.

Aha yes I saw that! Was more so building on your reply. I think a lot of people are reading way too much into the speed. It doesn’t matter if he’s slow or fast if his production is near the top of the league. How many fast players do we know that can’t score

 

[ACC1224]

Covid certainly played a factor but it applied to every teams in the league.
I think the fact that Leafs have three players who are top 7 in League salary will always force them to give up on those mid tier players.
Even if COVID didn't happen, how much would the cap be? I highly doubt it will be 90mil like some suggested and I think the cap was raising about 1.5-2mil a year before COVID. COVID happened in 2020, which is three off seasons ago and the cap did raised 2mil. In a way, even without COVID, the cap probably would at best be 2.5-4mil more. But you also need to put into consideration how much would Leafs need to pay for TJ and Reilly extension if is not for COVID.

Cap seems like a bit of a lame excuse. If the freeze never occurred they would still be at the cap limit with the lower end players making more money.

 

[francis246]

Covid certainly played a factor but it applied to every teams in the league.
I think the fact that Leafs have three players who are top 7 in League salary will always force them to give up on those mid tier players.
Even if COVID didn't happen, how much would the cap be? I highly doubt it will be 90mil like some suggested and I think the cap was raising about 1.5-2mil a year before COVID. COVID happened in 2020, which is three off seasons ago and the cap did raised 2mil. In a way, even without COVID, the cap probably would at best be 2.5-4mil more. But you also need to put into consideration how much would Leafs need to pay for TJ and Reilly extension if is not for COVID.

The projected cap was supposed to be 90 million. A lot of people just completely ignore that number. All teams have cap projections. They get those projections from the league. The ESPN deal which was signed 1 of 2 years ago was supposed to be pivotal for the huge cap increase, however because of the amount of debt the teams incurred during Covid, the owners would be bleeding money if they increased the cap. Now owners won’t raise cap until debt is paid. So no we wouldn’t have seen a 2-4mill increase without Covid. It would have been the projected 8 million or more because that would have been 100% revenue for everyone. Not money used to pay off debts from Covid.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Covid certainly played a factor but it applied to every teams in the league.
I think the fact that Leafs have three players who are top 7 in League salary will always force them to give up on those mid tier players.
Even if COVID didn't happen, how much would the cap be? I highly doubt it will be 90mil like some suggested and I think the cap was raising about 1.5-2mil a year before COVID. COVID happened in 2020, which is three off seasons ago and the cap did raised 2mil. In a way, even without COVID, the cap probably would at best be 2.5-4mil more. But you also need to put into consideration how much would Leafs need to pay for TJ and Reilly extension if is not for COVID.

Before Rielly signed his contract extension other defenseman like Seth Jones got 8 years at $9.5 million, Darnell Nurse got 8 years at $9.25 million, and Charlie McAvoy got 8 years at $9.5 million.

Rielly re-signed for 8 years at $7.5 million, when he could have easily became a UFA and signed for more based on those other contracts which were already signed.

 

[Gabriel426]

The projected cap was supposed to be 90 million. A lot of people just completely ignore that number. All teams have cap projections. They get those projections from the league. The ESPN deal which was signed 1 of 2 years ago was supposed to be pivotal for the huge cap increase, however because of the amount of debt the teams incurred during Covid, the owners would be bleeding money if they increased the cap. Now owners won’t raise cap until debt is paid. So no we wouldn’t have seen a 2-4mill increase without Covid. It would have been the projected 8 million or more because that would have been 100% revenue for everyone. Not money used to pay off debts from Covid.

Thats where I will question about 90mil projection. Before COVID, How often did the media projected a number in those GM meetings before Xmas and by season's end, the numbers are not even close.
Even if it is 90mil now, the League minimum will not be 950/player but it could be 1.2mil/player, in addition to the increase in other players contract.
It will certainly help Dubas and others manage the cap than now but it won't be such a difference that Leafs could use that extra money to sign someone like Kadri in the off season.

 

[JL17]

I get what you’re saying but you’re thinking in hypotheticals. Trading Tavares is not a guarantee our team improves. In fact if you look at the history of the NHL, the more cap space you have the more likely you are to make a horrible signing in UFA.

Let me ask you, is forcing a Tavares trade worth ruining the culture they’ve built? Also Tavares is still valuable and consistent. Who cares if he’s slow? He still puts up 80ish points a year. You’re not going to find that consistency in another player at a cheaper cost.

Even Bo Horvat, he’s a 50 point guy most years.

What culture? It’s not a winning culture it’s very much a ol boys club or country club atmosphere where the players have control.