John Stevens must be launched into the Sun UPDATE: John Stevens & Nachbaur incinerated

[King'sPawn]

I’m betting this is the same group of posters who whined in the off season that we didn’t have the roster to compete. Now that we see this roster in action, it’s now all the coaches fault, lol. Oh btw, we are only 3 games in, LOL.

Obviously it’s not too early to create a ‘Kings will NOT make the playoffs’ thread, right??

Do you think the criticisms of how the team looks aren't valid? Do you have a substantive counterpoint to the criticisms? Or is it just "lol whiners"?

Even though I find myself disagreeing a lot with some people (Kings17, Kings7824 - sorry if I'm misspelling), I respect the hell out of them for providing counterpoints.

I do think it's too early to say the Kings will not make the playoffs, and Stevens can still make adjustments. But his decisions for Games 1-3 call a LOT of valid questions and concerns. I can only hope he changes his approach accordingly.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

So after every Kings game, win or lose, can we start a new "Stevens must be...." thread. For instance, the next one could be "Stevens must be dropped by the Senators during pre-game, spilling beer and hurting children".

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Stevens took a mediocre team into the playoffs with no Jeff Carter for 3/4 of the season. I think game 3 of season 2 is probably a little early.

If Quick is out more than a month, it'll be a miracle if this team makes the playoffs, and Stevens might get canned for missing the playoffs.

It took a hart caliber 92 point season from a selke winner, a norris caliber performance from the top dman, and jonathan quick's best season since nuclear 2012 to get there, and the complaints were the same--identity-less hockey that loves getting outshot to no end. Misuse of minutes. Forced pairings with a complete lack of chemistry. Rolling out every LHD in the organization. This team made the playoffs in spite of Stevens, and I'd love to see what they could do under a Gallant or something before it's completely too late. It may already be. Game 3 of season 2 is a little early and that's a common pushback which I think would have more merit if this wasn't game 80-something of the same thing (minus the beginning of last season where we were playing pond hockey).

I mean, even when the Flames were getting obliterated on the shot count, they could at least verbalize that their system was to push shots to the outside and try to counterpunch. I challenge anyone here to let me know what our system is.

 

[Sol]

I’m betting this is the same group of posters who whined in the off season that we didn’t have the roster to compete. Now that we see this roster in action, it’s now all the coaches fault, lol. Oh btw, we are only 3 games in, LOL.

Obviously it’s not too early to create a ‘Kings will NOT make the playoffs’ thread, right??

Actually, I believe the roster is talented just not being utilized correctly at all.

Stevens took a mediocre team into the playoffs with no Jeff Carter for 3/4 of the season. I think game 3 of season 2 is probably a little early.

If Quick is out more than a month, it'll be a miracle if this team makes the playoffs, and Stevens might get canned for missing the playoffs.

You can't be serious. You think playing Kopitar 25 minutes a night is going to be great for his durability ? Kopitar who led the team last season in points without anyone being a close second. How much of that was Stevens banking in on Kopitar being amazing? There is no way this will last, there's a bunch of evidence that Stevens has no real idea what to do with this team and its painfully obvious.

 

[deaderhead28]

I’m betting this is the same group of posters who whined in the off season that we didn’t have the roster to compete. Now that we see this roster in action, it’s now all the coaches fault, lol. Oh btw, we are only 3 games in, LOL.


Obviously it’s not too early to create a ‘Kings will NOT make the playoffs’ thread, right??

Yeah some of us arent as slow as others to know the coach wasnt going to work,or that the roster holes were never filled three years ago lol.But hey,some here will keep insulting those who actually called it 3 years ago about personnel and the hiring of Steven's wasnt going to work.

 

[JadedRandom]

Why would you launch someone into the sun, thus losing tens of millions of taxpayers' money for the launch, when you could just axe the guy?

Spray him and perhaps he'll disappear, who knows.

 

[Quattro]

3 games in... lol

 

[KingsFan7824]

We complain when teams throw young guys into the fire and ruin their development, and we complain when teams don't throw young guys into the fire so they can put it out.

Stevens can't make Toffoli fast. He can't make Carter young. If the players can't make quick passes, it will look like they have no system. It looked the same way with Sutter when nobody could pass for multiple games in a row.

Everyone wanted Sutter gone. Fans and players alike. Stevens is not Sutter. They don't play the same way.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Found this blurb from 2008 concerning Terry Murray. It's as if these same concerns still exist today...

Kopitar grew up in a hurry

Murray is a pacifist compared with last season's coach, Marc Crawford, who always seemed on the verge of popping a vein in his neck. The young players seem to appreciate Murray's Gandhi-like persona, but will they end up treating him like a substitute teacher?

 

[KingsFan7824]

Found this blurb from 2008 concerning Terry Murray. It's as if these same concerns still exist today...

Kopitar grew up in a hurry

Those concerns have existed with every team in every sport, and every coach that's coached them. Is he too demanding? Is he too lenient? He's good, but not the guy to get a team over the top. Too young? Too old? New ideas? Old ideas? Does the team need some old school? Should they progress into a new age?

The 90's Wings had the same questions. There was a time when people thought a team with Steve Yzerman couldn't win. Now he's God.

 

[King'sPawn]

We complain when teams throw young guys into the fire and ruin their development, and we complain when teams don't throw young guys into the fire so they can put it out.

Stevens can't make Toffoli fast. He can't make Carter young. If the players can't make quick passes, it will look like they have no system. It looked the same way with Sutter when nobody could pass for multiple games in a row.

Everyone wanted Sutter gone. Fans and players alike. Stevens is not Sutter. They don't play the same way.

Who has complained about players being used too early?

The players are failing to execute for a completely different reason under Sutter. These aren't worn down or frustrated players. We have confused players. At least with Sutter they would wear down the opposition and generate weak chances. We are outclassed with the same core.

A key UFA signing brought in to provide bomb shots on the powerplay has been used as a screen and planted on the half-wall. It's a lack of direction and understanding.

I am glad the Kings no longer play the Sutter system, because long term it wears the executing team down. But having no recognizeable or discernible system is worse.

 

[Kurrilino]

400 years of Sutter and Murray punishing creativity, force boardbattles and building up crowds in front of the net.
And 10 years later people point out missing creativity and a lack of a gameplan and a quick transition game.
Who would have thought that.

 

[AlphaBravo]

I think its fair to criticize Stevens. Those claiming its only 3 games into the season, are overseeing the fact that we saw Stevens's coach an entire season already and the preseason. To me it seems like Stevens is learning on the job, rather than a person who knows what he needs to do and is working to implement it. For example, when Sutter got hired he came in and took over with a clear vision. That is what helped this team do a complete 180 in a short period of time that season.

I am not advocating for bringing Sutter back; that relationship is dead and cannot be revived. But I would like to see a veteran coach come in and take control of this team. I did not see a consistent style of play from this squad last season, and I am seeing the same thing this season.

 

[BigKing]

With Sutter, he had a similar tenure arc at his previous stops so it was not a surprise that the team did not do well his last season here with the Quick and Kopitar injuries compounding things.

While they nabbed 98 points last season without Carter for most of it, Brown basically replaced his production after being non-existent prior. Then Carter came back on a ridiculously unsustainable goal scoring pace to help push them into the playoffs. Stevens didn't work any magic last season except for being liked by the star players on the team who responded with career years--or close to it.

Stevens is not a great coach but the whole point of his hire was to please the star players on this team: especially the dude that had a contract extension coming up and wasn't thrilled about the Lombardi firing. You've got a player's president, GM and coach in all three positions which is a recipe for a country club atmosphere.

Prior to the season starting, the talk on here about how talented this team is was pretty surprising to me. Kovalchuk is definitely an influx of talent, but it is pretty much a lateral move if you remove the Dustin Brown from last season. There is just a lot of expecting all of the young players to take a big leap forward but it would be extremely fortunate--and surprising--for the Amadios, Kempes, Brickleys etc...to just become super legit all at once. These hopes/expectations all rely on leaps forward while not accounting for regression from anyone.

Bottom line is that the team is in the same boat it has been for awhile now: extremely top heavy and not a legit threat unless every Top 6 and Top 4 D is healthy. Vilardi needed to be the stud we are hoping he is and it needed to happen this season on top of the Top 6 staying healthy. Hopefully he is able to make an impact at some point but the team needed more than just the Kovalchuk addition. I like JAD but he is not ready to contribute significantly at this level and will go back to Juniors.

I don't think Stevens is a great coach but I still don't love the construction of this team. I do agree that the younger guys should get more minutes over someone like Thompson but, at the end of the day, this team goes as far as 11/8/32 will take them. 11 & 8 seem to love Stevens and, due to how great they are on the ice, will continue to keep him employed while playing half of every game. As long as they are in playoff contention, Luc and his money machine are happy. The majority of the "Kopi! Dewy! Quickie!" idiots have no idea if Stevens is good or not so he isn't going anywhere as long as they are decent. Having Kopitar and Doughty allows you to remain decent when they are at the top of their respective games.

 

[lexlavender]

I WANT PEOPLE TO STARE AT THIS GRAPH AND LEARN FROM IT.

It's not that the Kings aren't trying to go to the middle, and it's not like they aren't trying to get high quality chances because the heat map shows that's where they get most of their shots. IT'S THAT THEY ARE SO ABYSMAL AT LEAVING THEIR ZONE, TRANSITION GAME, AND SO OBSESSED ABOUT HIGH QUALITY CHANCES THAT THEY DON'T ACTUALLY PRODUCE THESE THINGS IN HIGH NUMBERS.

Everyone here saying "lol just be creative" or "lol just go to the middle", that's what Stevens is basically telling his team, and they have no idea what the hell they are doing. Or I don't know what Stevens is telling his team, but it's clear they don't know what the hell they are doing, where their teammates will be, or how they should move the puck.

One might say that Stevens simply inverted the Sutter system, but with similiar results. Sutter team's are so obsessed with shots that over time they're ground down and miss opportunities to take high quality chances. Stevens is so obsessed with High Quality chances that his team misses opportunities to take shots. Only now on top of this, we don't have any defensive or transitionary structure, because Steven's system is "lol play fast" and "lol get the puck out of the zone" without any thought to how players organize themselves.

The sun is a consistent source of energy for all life on Earth; Stevens would not be welcome by the Sun.

 

[AlphaBravo]

With Sutter, he had a similar tenure arc at his previous stops so it was not a surprise that the team did not do well his last season here with the Quick and Kopitar injuries compounding things.

While they nabbed 98 points last season without Carter for most of it, Brown basically replaced his production after being non-existent prior. Then Carter came back on a ridiculously unsustainable goal scoring pace to help push them into the playoffs. Stevens didn't work any magic last season except for being liked by the star players on the team who responded with career years--or close to it.

Stevens is not a great coach but the whole point of his hire was to please the star players on this team: especially the dude that had a contract extension coming up and wasn't thrilled about the Lombardi firing. You've got a player's president, GM and coach in all three positions which is a recipe for a country club atmosphere.

Prior to the season starting, the talk on here about how talented this team is was pretty surprising to me. Kovalchuk is definitely an influx of talent, but it is pretty much a lateral move if you remove the Dustin Brown from last season. There is just a lot of expecting all of the young players to take a big leap forward but it would be extremely fortunate--and surprising--for the Amadios, Kempes, Brickleys etc...to just become super legit all at once. These hopes/expectations all rely on leaps forward while not accounting for regression from anyone.

Bottom line is that the team is in the same boat it has been for awhile now: extremely top heavy and not a legit threat unless every Top 6 and Top 4 D is healthy. Vilardi needed to be the stud we are hoping he is and it needed to happen this season on top of the Top 6 staying healthy. Hopefully he is able to make an impact at some point but the team needed more than just the Kovalchuk addition. I like JAD but he is not ready to contribute significantly at this level and will go back to Juniors.

I don't think Stevens is a great coach but I still don't love the construction of this team. I do agree that the younger guys should get more minutes over someone like Thompson but, at the end of the day, this team goes as far as 11/8/32 will take them. 11 & 8 seem to love Stevens and, due to how great they are on the ice, will continue to keep him employed while playing half of every game. As long as they are in playoff contention, Luc and his money machine are happy. The majority of the "Kopi! Dewy! Quickie!" idiots have no idea if Stevens is good or not so he isn't going anywhere as long as they are decent. Having Kopitar and Doughty allows you to remain decent when they are at the top of their respective games.

I think our roster is at par with 70% of the teams in the NHL. We have an elite No. 1C, 1D, and goalie, along with a good supporting cast. This team just needs a coach that can make them sync together and play one style effectively. What I am seeing on the ice is random players making random moves to score goals. Yes, we have a solid defensive structure, but that is about it. Going back to Sutter, we were predictable with our cycle/possession game in 2014, but very effective because everyone bought in. Other teams knew what style we played, but they couldn't counteract it because we played like a well oiled machine. I can't say that about this squad, especially considering we have a coach who is basically learning on the job.

Indeed, even when we win a game, I don't feel like we are "winning" as a reference to Sutter's famous quotes. Going back to last season and now, I feel like we rarely dominate games even when we get the W.

 

[lexlavender]

I think our roster is at par with 70% of the teams in the NHL. We have an elite No. 1C, 1D, and goalie, along with a good supporting cast. This team just needs a coach that can make them sync together and play one style effectively. What I am seeing on the ice is random players making random moves to score goals. Yes, we have a solid defensive structure, but that is about it. Going back to Sutter, we were predictable with our cycle/possession game in 2014, but very effective because everyone bought in. Other teams knew what style we played, but they couldn't counteract it because we played like a well oiled machine. I can't say that about this squad, especially considering we have a coach who is basically learning on the job.

Indeed, even when we win a game, I don't feel like we are "winning" as a reference to Sutter's famous quotes. Going back to last season and now, I feel like we rarely dominate games even when we get the W.

The numbers and play on ice don't show a solid defensive structure, they show a team getting bailed out by amazing goalies and an amazing goalie coach. Last year I was raising these alarms, but nay sayers stuck their head in the sand. This year, it is clear as day what is happening.

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

I think its fair to criticize Stevens. Those claiming its only 3 games into the season, are overseeing the fact that we saw Stevens's coach an entire season already and the preseason.

I just don't recall so much criticism of Stevens in the off-season...my recollection is that the criticism was mostly focused on roster and 'team speed.'

I actually thought the first two games were pretty fun to watch and I saw a lot of things I liked. Now, the WPG game was a bit rough...but it's WPG! They are considered to be a top contender to win the cup and had the best home-record last year....HELLO.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not a Stevens nutswinger...and was never that enthused when he was hired. But with that said, I think if the team is not successful this year (and I'm not about to make a judgement on that AFTER THREE GAMES), I think there will be plenty more blame to be shared than just looking at JS.

 

[BigKing]

I think our roster is at par with 70% of the teams in the NHL. We have an elite No. 1C, 1D, and goalie, along with a good supporting cast. This team just needs a coach that can make them sync together and play one style effectively. What I am seeing on the ice is random players making random moves to score goals. Yes, we have a solid defensive structure, but that is about it. Going back to Sutter, we were predictable with our cycle/possession game in 2014, but very effective because everyone bought in. Other teams knew what style we played, but they couldn't counteract it because we played like a well oiled machine. I can't say that about this squad, especially considering we have a coach who is basically learning on the job.

Indeed, even when we win a game, I don't feel like we are "winning" as a reference to Sutter's famous quotes. Going back to last season and now, I feel like we rarely dominate games even when we get the W.

Agree that the good Sutter teams were a machine with a roster that worked well with the system. I'm not sure what Stevens wants to run except "looser" but he doesn't necessarily have the horses to do it.

He might have the horses in some of the younger players but there are still trust issues so he relies on the vets in Bottom 6 roles and then relies on giant minutes from the most trustworthy players: 11/8/32.

The defense was a big driver of the 2012-14 team's ability to run the system. Mitchell and Voynov could make a great outlet pass while Voynov could skate it out as well. This is why it would be nice if Brickley could contribute sooner rather than later.

Been saying it for a few years now: the Kings need cheap, free contributions sooner rather than later while the core still has a chance. Kovalchuk might buy an extra season for this to happen but they need a legit, impact ELC guy to help supplement the core. As much as I like Amadio/Wagner/Kempe, the core plus these guy isn't going to move the needle far enough. We've already cried over the spilled milk of DL's draft record so no need to rehash why they are in this spot; however, they really need a prospect to blow up and be dynamic.

It is a lot to ask in a short time period.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Agree that the good Sutter teams were a machine with a roster that worked well with the system. I'm not sure what Stevens wants to run except "looser" but he doesn't necessarily have the horses to do it.

He might have the horses in some of the younger players but there are still trust issues so he relies on the vets in Bottom 6 roles and then relies on giant minutes from the most trustworthy players: 11/8/32.

The defense was a big driver of the 2012-14 team's ability to run the system. Mitchell and Voynov could make a great outlet pass while Voynov could skate it out as well. This is why it would be nice if Brickley could contribute sooner rather than later.

Been saying it for a few years now: the Kings need cheap, free contributions sooner rather than later while the core still has a chance. Kovalchuk might buy an extra season for this to happen but they need a legit, impact ELC guy to help supplement the core. As much as I like Amadio/Wagner/Kempe, the core plus these guy isn't going to move the needle far enough. We've already cried over the spilled milk of DL's draft record so no need to rehash why they are in this spot; however, they really need a prospect to blow up and be dynamic.

It is a lot to ask in a short time period.

Problem is, they don't have one, Vilardi is the closest thing and no one has any idea of how he will be,

Trading for Nylander makes sense only if he you can get him to sign, no idea what he wants etc, but if you trade a Muzzin and Toffoli and say, Clague for Nylander, you plug in Wagner full time, call up Brickley and run with the kids, is that going to win the cup, probably not, but it is a step in the right direction.

 

[BigKing]

Problem is, they don't have one, Vilardi is the closest thing and no one has any idea of how he will be,

Trading for Nylander makes sense only if he you can get him to sign, no idea what he wants etc, but if you trade a Muzzin and Toffoli and say, Clague for Nylander, you plug in Wagner full time, call up Brickley and run with the kids, is that going to win the cup, probably not, but it is a step in the right direction.

Hence why many have been calling this a black hole team for years now and would rather blow it up and try to strike gold or, at least, maybe speed up what is believed to be an inevitable rebuild.

That time has passed since Carter was the best chip if the goal was to speed up an inevitable rebuild. Of course, you'd have to make the right draft pick with whatever 1st rounder he could have pulled so, as has been outlined on here ad naseum, there are no guarantees except that moving forward with the aging core will most likely be frustrating as hell.

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

Do we get to give credit to Stevens when they win or do we just bitch about him when they lose?

 

[Fishhead]

Do we get to give credit to Stevens when they win or do we just ***** about him when they lose?

The ice time spread was fantastic tonight, exactly what most have been clamoring for him to do. Kopitar with 22:28 and Doughty with 25. Lewis and Thompson with under 10 minutes of ES time, doing the heavy lifting on the PK.

The line combos also put players where they could succeed, and what do ya know?

Keep it up, Johnny!

 

[Minor Boarding]

I WANT PEOPLE TO STARE AT THIS GRAPH AND LEARN FROM IT.

It's not that the Kings aren't trying to go to the middle, and it's not like they aren't trying to get high quality chances because the heat map shows that's where they get most of their shots. IT'S THAT THEY ARE SO ABYSMAL AT LEAVING THEIR ZONE, TRANSITION GAME, AND SO OBSESSED ABOUT HIGH QUALITY CHANCES THAT THEY DON'T ACTUALLY PRODUCE THESE THINGS IN HIGH NUMBERS.

Everyone here saying "lol just be creative" or "lol just go to the middle", that's what Stevens is basically telling his team, and they have no idea what the hell they are doing. Or I don't know what Stevens is telling his team, but it's clear they don't know what the hell they are doing, where their teammates will be, or how they should move the puck.

One might say that Stevens simply inverted the Sutter system, but with similiar results. Sutter team's are so obsessed with shots that over time they're ground down and miss opportunities to take high quality chances. Stevens is so obsessed with High Quality chances that his team misses opportunities to take shots. Only now on top of this, we don't have any defensive or transitionary structure, because Steven's system is "lol play fast" and "lol get the puck out of the zone" without any thought to how players organize themselves.

The sun is a consistent source of energy for all life on Earth; Stevens would not be welcome by the Sun.

Thanks.
I've talked about the Kings inability to dictate a fast play out of the defensive zone for some time now.
Losing Voynov sucked the air out of the team in that department... He was also the last defenseman that would join the rush (Doughty doesn't join if he doesn't have the puck on his stick).

The PP is just laughable.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

3 games in... lol

91* games in.

I just don't recall so much criticism of Stevens in the off-season...my recollection is that the criticism was mostly focused on roster and 'team speed.'

I actually thought the first two games were pretty fun to watch and I saw a lot of things I liked. Now, the WPG game was a bit rough...but it's WPG! They are considered to be a top contender to win the cup and had the best home-record last year....HELLO.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not a Stevens nutswinger...and was never that enthused when he was hired. But with that said, I think if the team is not successful this year (and I'm not about to make a judgement on that AFTER THREE GAMES), I think there will be plenty more blame to be shared than just looking at JS.

Part of at least my criticism now is that he said all the proper things in the offseason and he's not sticking to them now, i.e. Kovalchuk to the front of the net, Kopitar playing #1 d-man minutes, 4C playing 5 minutes, etc.

And I actually don't think anyone disagrees re: shared blame, only that the coach was getting relatively slim piece of the blame before we saw the shitshow of coaching going on the first three games and consistent with last year's problems.