Blue Jays Discussion: Joe Panik: the hero we deserve

[canucksfan]

How mad should we be if the Jays waste one of the best seasons ever by a Toronto player by not making the playoffs?

Pretty mad. Semien is also having an outstanding year. Montoyo deserves some blame for his bullpen usage but to be fair to him, he doesn't have a lot of good options now.

Jays have one of the best offenses in the league and that is without Springer and having a black hole in the catching position for most of the year.
Recently, the starters have been fairly good. Atkins needs to be trying to acquiring relief pitching because the bullpen is brutal. Phelps and Yates are done for the year. Merryweather and Borucki are likely at best a month away. Right now I only trust Romano in high leverage situations. Dolis and Castro I trust in lower leverage situations. The rest suck.

 

[MS]

I fail to understand what Dolis has done in his career to be locked in as a high-leverage guy for this team.

Dude is 33 years old with a career WAR of 0.2 and had one good 15-game stretch in 2020.

Castro and Thornton should be well ahead of him in the pecking order.

 

[canucksfan]

I fail to understand what Dolis has done in his career to be locked in as a high-leverage guy for this team.

Dude is 33 years old with a career WAR of 0.2 and had one good 15-game stretch in 2020.

Castro and Thornton should be well ahead of him in the pecking order.

Problem with Thornton is he’s prone to the long ball. I trust Dolis over him.

Says a lot about the bullpen when the second best arm is a rookie waiver pickup.

Assuming they are ready I’d call up Hatch and Murphy. I think they might be trying to stretch out Hatch which makes sense but they need help now in the pen.

 

[phillipmike]

I’ve been wrong many times before but I just don’t know how a major league GM can say Charlie Montoyo is a manager that I can see winning us a World Series.

If you can’t see him winning you a WS, then what’s the point in keeping him. And if you can see him winning you a WS, I don’t trust your baseball judgement.

 

[Discoverer]

Yup. That’s the thinking of a 90’s manager. The game has changed.

I would have gone with "That's the thinking of a 2016 Wild Card Manager" but same idea.

 

[Discoverer]

I’ve been wrong many times before but I just don’t know how a major league GM can say Charlie Montoyo is a manager that I can see winning us a World Series.

If you can’t see him winning you a WS, then what’s the point in keeping him. And if you can see him winning you a WS, I don’t trust your baseball judgement.

If Ned Yost can win, anyone can.

 

[Discoverer]

How mad should we be if the Jays waste one of the best seasons ever by a Toronto player by not making the playoffs?

Assuming you were a Jays fan any time between the World Series wins and the 2015 playoff run, you should probably be used to it. Vlad's stepping it up over these guys, but the Jays wasted Delgado's career and then Halladay's and then the first five years of Bautista's breakout.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

I really miss Gibby as our manager lol

 

[theaub]

I was fully ready to defend Montoyo. Knowing that you needed a pitcher in the 10th anyways and that even with the heart of the order due up for Boston you could make a fair argument to prefer to have Dolis start with a clean inning instead of a runner on second.

And then Montoyo comes out with that crap ffs

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Assuming you were a Jays fan any time between the World Series wins and the 2015 playoff run, you should probably be used to it. Vlad's stepping it up over these guys, but the Jays wasted Delgado's career and then Halladay's and then the first five years of Bautista's breakout.

I was going to mention those guys, and yet Vlad's season may surpass anything either of them did at his current pace. The highest WAR total among them was Bautista's 8.1 WAR season in 2011. Vlad is on his way to putting up almost 10.

 

[Cor]

I really miss Gibby as our manager lol

I wonder if now that we are competitive again, he’d come back.

IIRC, Rogers wanted to extend him but he didn’t want to go through a rebuild, right?

 

[Discoverer]

I was fully ready to defend Montoyo. Knowing that you needed a pitcher in the 10th anyways and that even with the heart of the order due up for Boston you could make a fair argument to prefer to have Dolis start with a clean inning instead of a runner on second.

And then Montoyo comes out with that crap ffs

I even have a hard time with that argument. You only need a pitcher for the 10th if you get through the 9th, and Dolis didn't present a very good opportunity to get to there (considering he had allowed 8 runs on 8 walks and 10 hits in his previous 8 innings coming in).

You know the 9th inning offers no room for error, so you go with your best guy there every time. The 10th might end up being more difficult, but at least getting there gives the offense a chance to create some breathing room.

 

[Discoverer]

I was going to mention those guys, and yet Vlad's season may surpass anything either of them did at his current pace. The highest WAR total among them was Bautista's 8.1 WAR season in 2011. Vlad is on his way to putting up almost 10.

Oh yeah, what he's doing now dwarfs even the best of the best in Jays history. There's a long way to go, obviously, but what he's doing now (206 wRC+, on pace for 10.6 fWAR) is comparable to the best performances of most inner-circle Hall of Famers (Gehrig, Cobb, and Mantle only reached 206 once, while Musial, Mays, Foxx, etc. etc. etc. never did).

I just figured we should be used to individual accomplishments and disappointing win totals.

 

[kb]

Oh yeah, what he's doing now dwarfs even the best of the best in Jays history. There's a long way to go, obviously, but what he's doing now (206 wRC+, on pace for 10.6 fWAR) is comparable to the best performances of most inner-circle Hall of Famers (Gehrig, Cobb, and Mantle only reached 206 once, while Musial, Mays, Foxx, etc. etc. etc. never did).

I just figured we should be used to individual accomplishments and disappointing win totals.

That really puts what he is doing into context. At his present pace, his season will be one for the ages.

 

[Bjindaho]

Looks like suspensions for foreign substances are coming.

Eovaldi is likely the only rival starter that is safe. Based on what I've seen on the Jays, it wouldn't shock me if our recent struggles in the pen were related to this (cough, Chatwood and Dolis, cough)

 

[MS]

I was fully ready to defend Montoyo. Knowing that you needed a pitcher in the 10th anyways and that even with the heart of the order due up for Boston you could make a fair argument to prefer to have Dolis start with a clean inning instead of a runner on second.

And then Montoyo comes out with that crap ffs

I even have a hard time with that argument. You only need a pitcher for the 10th if you get through the 9th, and Dolis didn't present a very good opportunity to get to there (considering he had allowed 8 runs on 8 walks and 10 hits in his previous 8 innings coming in).

You know the 9th inning offers no room for error, so you go with your best guy there every time. The 10th might end up being more difficult, but at least getting there gives the offense a chance to create some breathing room.

Arguing whether Dolis or Romano should have gone first is still missing the point.

Anthony Castro has been near unhittable (WHIP of .867) and was available. Dolis shouldn’t have even been considered unless this game reached the 11th and Castro and Romano were both used up.

 

[Discoverer]

Arguing whether Dolis or Romano should have gone first is still missing the point.

Anthony Castro has been near unhittable (WHIP of .867) and was available. Dolis shouldn’t have even been considered unless this game reached the 11th and Castro and Romano were both used up.

That's an issue too, yeah. But I can at least see the argument, to some extent, about not putting too much high-leverage pressure on Castro too fast. That's where the completely impossible to quantify parts of the manager's job comes in. Romano vs. Dolis (or Castro or whoever, since it should have been Romano's inning no matter what) is more of a black-and-white issue for me and says a lot more about Montoyo's abilities as an on-field manager.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Looks like suspensions for foreign substances are coming.

Eovaldi is likely the only rival starter that is safe. Based on what I've seen on the Jays, it wouldn't shock me if our recent struggles in the pen were related to this (cough, Chatwood and Dolis, cough)

 

[phillipmike]

 

[leafsleafs]

Even better, could Allen join the bullpen?

 

[MS]

That's an issue too, yeah. But I can at least see the argument, to some extent, about not putting too much high-leverage pressure on Castro too fast. That's where the completely impossible to quantify parts of the manager's job comes in. Romano vs. Dolis (or Castro or whoever, since it should have been Romano's inning no matter what) is more of a black-and-white issue for me and says a lot more about Montoyo's abilities as an on-field manager.

Oh, agreed with the 2nd point.

I just don't understand what Dolis has done to be given this many chances in high-leverage situations. It isn't like this is Kirby Yates having a bad stretch and you're trying to sort him out. This guy is 33 and has literally one good month to show for his entire MLB career. Throwing the way he is he should be mop-up innings only and about the last choice down there to come in in the 9th in a tie game. But every single game, here he comes to have an absolutely terrifying performance.

Castro's good stretch this year is already as long as Dolis' was last year.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Here is a 2 week paid vacation if you get caught cheating. Ohhh nooo.

 

[hoglund]

I was fully ready to defend Montoyo. Knowing that you needed a pitcher in the 10th anyways and that even with the heart of the order due up for Boston you could make a fair argument to prefer to have Dolis start with a clean inning instead of a runner on second.

And then Montoyo comes out with that crap ffs

Actually it makes sense to have Dolis start with no one on base because as proven he can't get enough outs before that runner scores and Romano can. The problem is Montoyo doesn't have many choices.

 

[SDig14]

 

[phillipmike]

Time for Patino to become one of the best pitchers in the game and Yarbrough to win the Cy Young and Hill, Wacha and McClanahan to finish out the best rotation we will see in our generation.

Mark my words, the Rays will somehow be better after this injury.