Player Discussion Jimmy Vesey Part II

[NYR Viper]

Mot players have a sophomore slump of some kind. Vesey was just an older rookie. There are times when he keeps the game simple and he creates chances by using his size, strength and shot. There are other times when he seems to want to be a skill guy.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

When healthy our lineup should be:

Kreider-Zibanejad-Buchnevich
Grabner-Miller- Zucc
Nash- Hayes - Fast
Lettieri-Boo-Vesey

 

[Mac n Gs]

I often wonder how much of the Vesey argument rests on expectations people set for him when he was signed. Did all of the media hype lead to an improper correlation of him being some stud college kid? Anyone that watched college hockey his senior year will tell you that his Hobey Baker belonged to Kyle Connor. Even when we signed him, someone made the really good evaluation that his ceiling is probably an improved version of Chris Higgins, and I still agree with that. For such a schlub, it’s astounding that he’s top 3 on this team in ixGF and iHDCF. He’s really good at stretching the offensive zone laterally and getting in position to get good shots.

The kid is a good bottom 6 player. He’s not equivalent at all to the trash this team has trotted out on our 4th line in recent years.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

So... Fast

Sure if Fast is looking good in the offensive zone on any given night over Vesey. Unfortunately Fast goes through his offensive black hole slumps so he can do that on the 4th line. Luckily for him when he isn't playing well offensively he is still normally playing very solid defensively.

 

[Kaapo Cabana]

Sure if Fast is looking good in the offensive zone on any given night over Vesey. Unfortunately Fast goes through his offensive black hole slumps so he can do that on the 4th line. Luckily for him when he isn't playing well offensively he is still normally playing very solid defensively.

what would you call Vesey's 2nd half last year if not an "offensive black hole"?

 

[The Crypto Guy]

what would you call Vesey's 2nd half last year if not an "offensive black hole"?

A rookie struggling playing 82 games after playing only 40 games a year the previous 3 years.

 

[Ori]

Vesey struggle a lot in his own defensive zone this season and now on the 4th line with DD & Carey on sunday, and it doesn`t help his case that he is a horrific two ways player, and his leach is too long sometimes and not sure why AV like him so much in consider overall TOI compare to his production 27 pts in 80 games last year. If we had depth he should rest some games earlier this season - train and learn and develop earlier which is part of young players progression sometimes and learn from their mistakes. Gorton should look for a 4th line player before this window close and move some pieces. I hope the DD experiment is soon over - not sure if Carey is a guy who we should use too often this season - we have good options even in the minors.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Vesey was projected by a lot of people as a top 6 forward, to claim otherwise is revisionist history, some even thought he had top line potential. I don't think anyone projected him worse than a middle six forward.

In nearly every "expert" prospect rankings, he was ranked ahead of Skjei, and ahead of Buchnevich in some, as well. There was a thread before the rookie season of all three who was our top prospect, and a few had Vesey #1, nearly everyone had him top 3. There were only a few of us who had him outside the top 3, we got laughed at, how could we have Shestyorkin ahead of Vesey? There was a thread about the best rookie season between Skjei, Buchnevich and Vesey, no one was saying Vesey would suck during his rookie season, score less than 30 points. I remember there actually being some talk that he could be an outside contender for the Calder. In any of the projections I went back and looked at, the worst projection I saw was 35-40 points eventually. I think now if he hits that, he's done extremely well. Thats an 8-13 point increase for a guy who's 24 years old. Could happen, but its no certainty.

Vesey has definitely not lived up to expectations. Pretty much everyone was wrong about him. Of course it effects his perception now. Why wouldn't it and why shouldn't it? If the perception of him was the same perception as Boo Nieves, people would care less, and he would've got nowhere near the leash that AV has given him.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Vesey was projected by a lot of people as a top 6 forward, to claim otherwise is revisionist history, some even thought he had top line potential. I don't think anyone projected him worse than a middle six forward.

In nearly every "expert" prospect rankings, he was ranked ahead of Skjei, and ahead of Buchnevich in some, as well. There was a thread before the rookie season of all three who was our top prospect, and a few had Vesey #1, nearly everyone had him top 3. There were only a few of us who had him outside the top 3, we got laughed at, how could we have Shestyorkin ahead of Vesey? There was a thread about the best rookie season between Skjei, Buchnevich and Vesey, no one was saying Vesey would suck during his rookie season, score less than 30 points. I remember there actually being some talk that he could be an outside contender for the Calder. In any of the projections I went back and looked at, the worst projection I saw was 35-40 points eventually. I think now if he hits that, he's done extremely well. Thats an 8-13 point increase for a guy who's 24 years old. Could happen, but its no certainty.

Vesey has definitely not lived up to expectations. Pretty much everyone was wrong about him. Of course it effects his perception now. Why wouldn't it and why shouldn't it? If the perception of him was the same perception as Boo Nieves, people would care less, and he would've got nowhere near the leash that AV has given him.

Who are these a lot of people? Most of what I read and seen about him always screamed good bottom-6 guy who can score. I don’t even recall anyone on here saying he was a top-6 guy.

All of RangerBoy’s posts said his peak could be a 25-30 goal guy. I don’t think saying he could end up being a 20 goal guy is unreasonable.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I read back through the threads.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/jimmy-vesey.2117267/
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/is-jimmy-vesey-our-1-prospect.2117551/
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/better-rookie-season-vesey-buchnevich-or-skjei.2135939/

 

[Overcast]

I often wonder how much of the Vesey argument rests on expectations people set for him when he was signed. Did all of the media hype lead to an improper correlation of him being some stud college kid? Anyone that watched college hockey his senior year will tell you that his Hobey Baker belonged to Kyle Connor. Even when we signed him, someone made the really good evaluation that his ceiling is probably an improved version of Chris Higgins, and I still agree with that. For such a schlub, it’s astounding that he’s top 3 on this team in ixGF and iHDCF. He’s really good at stretching the offensive zone laterally and getting in position to get good shots.

The kid is a good bottom 6 player. He’s not equivalent at all to the trash this team has trotted out on our 4th line in recent years.

The hype train absolutely tarnished any hope of accepting him as the type of player he actually is. He was talked about a lot. A lot. That alone raises people's expectations that he'll be able to make considerable noise immediately. Couple the talk with him being older than most NHL rookies and this notion that players can't improve after they "peak" at 24-28 or whatever the age range is, and expectations get even higher. Everyone expected him to be this fully developed NHL impact player. "He should/shouldn't be doing x/y/z, he's this much other than this rookie."

 

[PuckLuck3043]

Vesey was projected by a lot of people as a top 6 forward, to claim otherwise is revisionist history, some even thought he had top line potential. I don't think anyone projected him worse than a middle six forward.

In nearly every "expert" prospect rankings, he was ranked ahead of Skjei, and ahead of Buchnevich in some, as well. There was a thread before the rookie season of all three who was our top prospect, and a few had Vesey #1, nearly everyone had him top 3. There were only a few of us who had him outside the top 3, we got laughed at, how could we have Shestyorkin ahead of Vesey? There was a thread about the best rookie season between Skjei, Buchnevich and Vesey, no one was saying Vesey would suck during his rookie season, score less than 30 points. I remember there actually being some talk that he could be an outside contender for the Calder. In any of the projections I went back and looked at, the worst projection I saw was 35-40 points eventually. I think now if he hits that, he's done extremely well. Thats an 8-13 point increase for a guy who's 24 years old. Could happen, but its no certainty.

Vesey has definitely not lived up to expectations. Pretty much everyone was wrong about him. Of course it effects his perception now. Why wouldn't it and why shouldn't it? If the perception of him was the same perception as Boo Nieves, people would care less, and he would've got nowhere near the leash that AV has given him.

Why don't we give him more than 100 games or so before we write his epitaph. He has played much better since being moved down and the kid does have some skill, more than most 4th liners. It is possible he can still work and develop his game and become a more consistent contributor. I am rooting for the kid to succeed.

 

[eco's bones]

In the post game Vesey mentioned that he was on ice for all three goals against--not trying to hide that and being aware is a good thing.........though Carey f***ed up on the Eriksson goal giving the puck away at the blueline--Vesey being in an outlet position on the left wing as the puck was moving out of the zone was the furthest away on a play that should have been an easy out and one that Henrik probably should have stopped....on the Virtanen goal Vesey's along the right wing boards in a support position--Kampfer has sealed off a Canucks forward further below Vesey along the boards and Desharnais tries to force a pass up along the board instead of reversing it or skating it behind the net which were both open options. Desharnais' pass goes off of the heel of Kampfer's skate and kicks out towards the slot. Virtanen picks it up and scores. On the Gagner goal Smith has the puck behind the net and uses the glass to rim it around high to clear the zone--it hits a stanchion and kicks back to Vanek behind the net who almost immediately finds Gagner in the slot--is just a freak bad luck play.

In any case none of last night's goals against were at all attributable to bad play on Vesey's part. The first was a bad play by Carey and not great goaltending by Henrik. The second pretty much belongs to Desharnais for forcing a play he didn't have to and when he had much better options and the last one was just a bad luck deflection off the glass of a play that should have gone out.

Nash makes a great play on Vesey's goal. Vesey wins the puck--gives it to Hayes who gets it out of the defensive zone and puts in the offensive zone in a spot where Nash can beat the defender. While Vesey is losing his coverage--Nash running out of real estate spins and makes a very nice play to Vesey who doesn't shoot it right away but moves with the puck in the opposite direction the goalie is coming and then puts it up high. Great play all around and it doesn't happen without a contribution from all three forwards on the ice.

On the shootout goal Vesey pretty much does exactly the same thing that Nash does and something similar to what Shatty does on their shootout goals. He doesn't try to duplicate the attempts of Zucc, Zbad, Buch or Miller who all failed. That was a watch and learn moment.

 

[Trxjw]

I often wonder how much of the Vesey argument rests on expectations people set for him when he was signed. Did all of the media hype lead to an improper correlation of him being some stud college kid? Anyone that watched college hockey his senior year will tell you that his Hobey Baker belonged to Kyle Connor. Even when we signed him, someone made the really good evaluation that his ceiling is probably an improved version of Chris Higgins, and I still agree with that. For such a schlub, it’s astounding that he’s top 3 on this team in ixGF and iHDCF. He’s really good at stretching the offensive zone laterally and getting in position to get good shots.

The kid is a good bottom 6 player. He’s not equivalent at all to the trash this team has trotted out on our 4th line in recent years.

Hey, that was me!

I still stand by that comparison. It's really about the kind of player Vesey as always been, and that's a guy who can be opportunistic and compliment better players. If he's the 3rd best guy on his line, then that's where you're going to see him shine. We could see it last year as he always seemed to be at his best when he was paired up with Nash. Nash does the leg work and Vesey finds some empty nice to get the puck on net.

He's fine on the 4th line, but I'd argue that you're not maximizing his potential impact there. The reality of hockey is that most players don't fit into a "line" role. It's just a combination of guys trying to play to their strengths. I think Fast and Grabner are much better overall players than Vesey at this point, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that Vesey, under the right circumstances, might be a better option on a 3rd line with Nash and Hayes.

There's something to be said for guys who can compliment better players. Benny Pouliot was an example while he was here. Chris Kunitz is another guy who made a great living out of doing just that. Chris Drury is another one. Guys who can just sort of elevate themselves to the level of those around them, even though they lack that natural ability. I see that sort of player in Vesey.

 

[JohnC]

I read back through the threads.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/jimmy-vesey.2117267/
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/is-jimmy-vesey-our-1-prospect.2117551/
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/better-rookie-season-vesey-buchnevich-or-skjei.2135939/

I only skimmed the first pages of each of those threads and there was maybe one or two doofuses supporting your claim.

The only time I remember anyone in the hockey community (aka not Flyline of HF boards) claiming he could be a top 6 contributor right away was when everyone reported David Poile thought he could step into Nashville's top 6 during the 2016 playoffs.

 

[Tawnos]

I think PB gets confused between projection and expectation.

Vesey came into the league projecting to have a ceiling of a 1B type of player, but that doesn’t mean anyone was necessarily expecting him to get all the way there. And certainly not in 100 games. When it comes to prospects, bringing in players with a guaranteed floor of 4th line is always well worth it.

Vesey might never break out of a 4th line production. But he does work as hard as anyone on he team. Things do happen when he’s in the offensive zone. He regularly has a positive impact on momentum. Occasionally he makes a big play.

That sounds like a typical 4th liner. If he can find a way to have that big play more regularly, he will be a good middle 6 player. Will he? I don’t know.

This is what you do with young players and prospects. You reevaluate your projections and expectations until the player is what he’s ever going to be.

 

[Tawnos]

I do wonder if he’s playing too light. His frame looks to me like he should be playing at 215-220. He’s at what, 205?

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Somehow the smallest 6’3 person in human history

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I only skimmed the first pages of each of those threads and there was maybe one or two doofuses supporting your claim.

The only time I remember anyone in the hockey community (aka not Flyline of HF boards) claiming he could be a top 6 contributor right away was when everyone reported David Poile thought he could step into Nashville's top 6 during the 2016 playoffs.

So if you only skimmed one page why are you making an assessment?

And I never said most said he'd be a top 6 contributor right away. Some thought so, but nearly everyone thought he could be a quality contributor to the NHL team right away. As I mentioned, the lowest projection for his rookie season I saw was 35-40 points, which for a "skilled forward" is about as few points as you can have before you aren't a quality contributor anymore.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I think PB gets confused between projection and expectation.

Vesey came into the league projecting to have a ceiling of a 1B type of player, but that doesn’t mean anyone was necessarily expecting him to get all the way there. And certainly not in 100 games. When it comes to prospects, bringing in players with a guaranteed floor of 4th line is always well worth it.

Vesey might never break out of a 4th line production. But he does work as hard as anyone on he team. Things do happen when he’s in the offensive zone. He regularly has a positive impact on momentum. Occasionally he makes a big play.

That sounds like a typical 4th liner. If he can find a way to have that big play more regularly, he will be a good middle 6 player. Will he? I don’t know.

This is what you do with young players and prospects. You reevaluate your projections and expectations until the player is what he’s ever going to be.

I'm not confused, at all, I'm not sure if others are though. Read back through those threads, I think its very clear that everyone expected him to be a top 9 forward last season and it seemed like most or if not most than half thought he'd be a top six forward at some point in his career. There were a few who said top line was a possibility.

 

[kovazub94]

I'm not confused, at all, I'm not sure if others are though. Read back through those threads, I think its very clear that everyone expected him to be a top 9 forward last season and it seemed like most or if not most than half thought he'd be a top six forward at some point in his career. There were a few who said top line was a possibility.

I was going to write what Tawnos wrote and then changed my mind because I knew this is a response I'd get from you. First, let's forget about "a top line possibility" that you keep mentioning because these were extreme outliers, very few in numbers to generalize. Then, those who you say thought he'd be a top6 forward were expressing what they thought of his UPSIDE potential. His mean projection was and still is of a middle 6 forward. To me there is still some degree of possibility of a top 6 forward once he figures out how to make his play the most effective (but it probably will be in specific situation that involve a chemistry with a particular center etc). This is still too early to predict with CERTAINTY only 1/4 of the way into his second season. Time and time again a prospect gets written off or discounted because he doesn't perform at a particular level right away when he gets to the NHL. Typically it's somewhere between 3-4 season when we can get a pretty certain view of what a prospect is in the NHL.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Typically 24 year olds are close to finished products. The Rookie tag really does distort things, I think looking at player development by year in the league as opposed to age is very flawed. It makes some difference, but a player's age is a bigger factor.

We can move the goal posts here all we want, Vesey has not lived up to any of our expectations. I think anyone who says he has either has a distorted view of his current game or did not contribute their opinion of him at the time and is regarding their opinion at the time over the whole, which is fine, but I have a hard time believing anyone predicted it, either way.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Typically 24 year olds are close to finished products. The Rookie tag really does distort things, I think looking at player development by year in the league as opposed to age is very flawed. It makes some difference, but a player's age is a bigger factor.

We can move the goal posts here all we want, Vesey has not lived up to any of our expectations. I think anyone who says he has either has a distorted view of his current game or did not contribute their opinion of him at the time and is regarding their opinion at the time over the whole, which is fine, but I have a hard time believing anyone predicted it, either way.

Live up to our expectations or live up to yours? I, and others, expected him to be a good bottom-6 utility guy. You’re the one that always mentions the media frenzy and the “sweepstakes.” But hey, if you wanna write him off after 1.25 seasons, then that’s you’re prerogative.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Can you back that up that you thought that? I'm not sure I saw one post looking back at the old Vesey threads that said that.

And you say an improved Chris Higgins, Chris Higgins scored 52 points his best season. An improved Chris Higgins is getting close to 60. Wouldn't that be a first liner or a very good second line guy? I always mention the media frenzy and sweepstakes because this is what it was. He was hyped through the roof, including experts, scouts, fans, and we were all wrong. He was in all these prospect rankings, I don't know if Skjei made any of them. Its distorting reality to act like expectations were "bottom 6 utility guy." You don't need to take my word for it, I posted the links, look back in them, if you want. If you can back that up, congrats for being right or close to right, but as the links I post show, that would've been an outlier opinion.

I'm not writing Vesey off, to claim so is a distraction from this discussion about the expectations around him that you started.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Can you back that up that you thought that? I'm not sure I saw one post looking back at the old Vesey threads that said that.

And you say an improved Chris Higgins, Chris Higgins scored 52 points his best season. An improved Chris Higgins is getting close to 60. Wouldn't that be a first liner or a very good second line guy? I always mention the media frenzy and sweepstakes because this is what it was. He was hyped through the roof, including experts, scouts, fans, and we were all wrong. Its distorting reality to act like that was not the case. You don't need to take my word for it, I posted the links, look back in them, if you want.

And I'm not writing Vesey off, to claim so is a distraction from this discussion about the expectations around him that you started.

Do me a favor and look at the rest of Chris Higgins career and tell me what season looks like the outlier. Do you not remember Chris Higgins when he was here?