Speculation: Jets - General Rumour, Trade, Free Agent and Waiver Speculation (12-13 Part XIII)

[Holden Caulfield]

One of my big pet peeves is the assertion that this organization is somehow trying to hold down young talent. It's ridiculous. You would have to be certifiably INSANE to:

- Do things to intentionally hinder/ hamper the development of your prospects
- Sacrifice team success for a young player.

Scheifele and Trouba will be in the NHL when they are ready to be in the NHL. I don't want another Burmistrov up here. A guy with obvious talent and potential who is not mentally of physically ready to play in the proper role in the NHL.

If you are a top 6 forward, you had better be ready to quickly work your way into that role when you get into the NHL. If you are a defenseman, you need to be ready to at least be serviceable in a 5/6 role as you learn the NHL game.

Noel and Chevy aren't thinking "wouldn't it be great to **** with this youngster?" They are looking at this team long term, which is the right way to look at it.

Nobody is thinking they are doing it intentionally.

However, despite the veritable panic on this board about "rushing" prospects, it is a)not nearly so much a problem as people make it out to be...many "rushed" players turn it back around (Joe Thornton 7 point rookie season, Jokinen's 4 straight <30 point seasons from 18 to 22), many other players are simply not rushed but ready (Saad) b)possible to actually ruin players the other way as well, by leaving them in the minors too long.

Also, if Noel is taking a "long term" look at the team, he NEEDS to be fired. That's not his job. His job is too win hockey games. His job is to manage the players he has, and win hockey games. It is Chevy's responsibility to manage for long term. However, it's Noel inability to understand and properly manage his roster that is the problem I have with him. He cannot see how to properly use talented young players, prefering to stay within his "comfort zone" with career minor leaguers that are "safe".

Nobody believes that Chevy or Noel would be screwing around for fun. But it is legitimately valid to question their ability to get the job done, the intelligence and player management. Again I am not advocating for change at this point, but I can see the arguments against both, neither guys have done a particular good job that would have them above reproach.

 

[Jet]

Nobody is thinking they are doing it intentionally.

However, despite the veritable panic on this board about "rushing" prospects, it is a)not nearly so much a problem as people make it out to be...many "rushed" players turn it back around (Joe Thornton 7 point rookie season, Jokinen's 4 straight <30 point seasons from 18 to 22), many other players are simply not rushed but ready (Saad) b)possible to actually ruin players the other way as well, by leaving them in the minors too long.

Also, if Noel is taking a "long term" look at the team, he NEEDS to be fired. That's not his job. His job is too win hockey games. His job is to manage the players he has, and win hockey games. It is Chevy's responsibility to manage for long term. However, it's Noel inability to understand and properly manage his roster that is the problem I have with him. He cannot see how to properly use talented young players, prefering to stay within his "comfort zone" with career minor leaguers that are "safe".

Nobody believes that Chevy or Noel would be screwing around for fun. But it is legitimately valid to question their ability to get the job done, the intelligence and player management. Again I am not advocating for change at this point, but I can see the arguments against both, neither guys have done a particular good job that would have them above reproach.

That is why the argument was in 2 parts. You think that roster moves are exclusively Chevy's or Noels? No. They look at players together and evaluate their play and suitability in roles and what level they are capable of. Of course Noel wants to win NOW. That is his job. If he doesn't think Machacek or Scheifele are going to help the team win it is his duty to emote that to Cheveldayoff.

 

[sully1410]

One of my big pet peeves is the assertion that this organization is somehow trying to hold down young talent. It's ridiculous. You would have to be certifiably INSANE to:

- Do things to intentionally hinder/ hamper the development of your prospects
- Sacrifice team success for a young player.

Scheifele and Trouba will be in the NHL when they are ready to be in the NHL. I don't want another Burmistrov up here. A guy with obvious talent and potential who is not mentally of physically ready to play in the proper role in the NHL.

If you are a top 6 forward, you had better be ready to quickly work your way into that role when you get into the NHL. If you are a defenseman, you need to be ready to at least be serviceable in a 5/6 role as you learn the NHL game.

Noel and Chevy aren't thinking "wouldn't it be great to **** with this youngster?" They are looking at this team long term, which is the right way to look at it.

I'm not saying it's done intentionally....I'm just saying that they're doing it wrong.

I don't think that Scheifele stood to gain a single thing by going back to junior. I also don't think that Noel and Chevy gave him the best chance to succeed with giving him crap minutes, in an area where he wasn't going to be effective.

I hear what Chevy says about wantig him to be stronger on his feet and just stronger in general...who do you think has better assets to make that happen?

The Winnipeg Jets...the NHL team, worth about 170million dollars. a franchise whos business is winning the Stanley Cup. Or the Barrie Colts. The OHL team, worth a bit less then 170mill.

If his strength is an issue...why not put him in the best possible situation to fix that issue?

That's just me.

 

[allan5oh]

Trouba/Scheifele - I wouldn't be surprised if they get a full camp, some good pre-season in and RS games, only to be sent to the AHL for a month or so. They'll be full timers by the end of the 13/14 season.

Wheeler, Burmi, Little, Bogosian, Redmond, Postma, Kulda- All RFA's that will be re-signed, no secret there. Give Burmi a 2 year cheap show me contract.

Hainsey - Re-signed due to vet experience and willingness to work with younger players. No need to keep him long term, although that may be what he wants.

Clitsome/Wright/Peluso - Will probably be re-signed, they do show potential to improve and have a role. Wright has another year on his contract.

Montoya - Good to keep because he challenges Pavelec a bit, and their styles are drastically different. Pavelec needs to be faster like Montoya. Wouldn't mind an upgrade that can challenge Pavelec more.

Antropov - flip a coin. If we can find an upgrade or fill his role internally, see ya. If not, we can re-sign. I don't see him staying long term. One year contract only please.

Wellwood/Tangradi/Santorelli/Meech - Borderline guys that will be re-signed if we cannot replace them. Santorelli and Tangradi still have time to prove themselves and could move into the Clitsome group. Meech and Wellwood are what they are.

Jokinen/Thorburn/Stuart - Only staying with us due to contracts. There's no potential with these players, all three are on a decline and are becoming redundant. I could see Jokinen being bought out.

Miettenen - Don't really want to keep him.

Gagnon - Can't really say much, no opinion really.

edited : put into a better order, and improved explanations

 

[Jet]

I'm not saying it's done intentionally....I'm just saying that they're doing it wrong.

I don't think that Scheifele stood to gain a single thing by going back to junior. I also don't think that Noel and Chevy gave him the best chance to succeed with giving him crap minutes, in an area where he wasn't going to be effective.

I hear what Chevy says about wantig him to be stronger on his feet and just stronger in general...who do you think has better assets to make that happen?

The Winnipeg Jets...the NHL team, worth about 170million dollars. a franchise whos business is winning the Stanley Cup. Or the Barrie Colts. The OHL team, worth a bit less then 170mill.

If his strength is an issue...why not put him in the best possible situation to fix that issue?

That's just me.

It obviously is just you. There is A LOT to be learned in the OHL if you haven't won a championship. Someone who doesn't think going through an NHL style playoffs as a leader and someone who is relied upon to score isn't an extremely important developmental tool is missing something. You aren't learning that anywhere.

You can bring in a bunch of raw talent into the NHL who is not fully developed and hope to do that in a league that is about winning, not teaching or development. That player will play on the 4th line and people will ***** and moan that they aren't getting line mates or playing time (sound familiar).

OR you can give that player more time to cook. They can get bigger, stronger, and more mentally mature. They can learn how to not only win, but lead a winner. Then, they can come to the NHL with not only raw talent but more mental tools in their toolbox and a winning mentality and spirit.

I just don't see how people are missing this. You can be the Edmonton Oilers, or you can be the Detroit Red Wings. Sure, the Oilers might make the playoffs this year, but look what they've been through. Will they EVER win a cup? How many of their core's years will they have burnt when they do? Look what happened to the Hawks. Some of that is due to awful roster moves but they got into cap trouble also because they were burning cheap contract years on players who weren't ready to meaningfully contribute. Luckily they made some shrewd moves and had others coming up but there are plenty of other examples of teams with very talented players who wasted that talent by developing them at the NHL level.

I guess the bottom line is there is 2 schools of thought here. I am very glad that the Jets are taking the proper path, as much as some around here don't like it.

 

[ps241]

Nobody is thinking they are doing it intentionally.

However, despite the veritable panic on this board about "rushing" prospects, it is a)not nearly so much a problem as people make it out to be...many "rushed" players turn it back around (Joe Thornton 7 point rookie season, Jokinen's 4 straight <30 point seasons from 18 to 22), many other players are simply not rushed but ready (Saad) b)possible to actually ruin players the other way as well, by leaving them in the minors too long.

Also, if Noel is taking a "long term" look at the team, he NEEDS to be fired. That's not his job. His job is too win hockey games. His job is to manage the players he has, and win hockey games. It is Chevy's responsibility to manage for long term. However, it's Noel inability to understand and properly manage his roster that is the problem I have with him. He cannot see how to properly use talented young players, prefering to stay within his "comfort zone" with career minor leaguers that are "safe".

Nobody believes that Chevy or Noel would be screwing around for fun. But it is legitimately valid to question their ability to get the job done, the intelligence and player management. Again I am not advocating for change at this point, but I can see the arguments against both, neither guys have done a particular good job that would have them above reproach.

I agree that neither is above reproach

that being said I think having a GM restock the cupboards is a job that isn't really sexy or fast moving. He hasn't pulled any rabbits out of his hat but he is following the plan and it's going to take time to properly assess.....the one thing I am certain of is the he will get a minimum of 5 years and maybe more so at some point we will be able to properly judge whether the plan made sense and he was the right guy to get the job done. I feel good about the plan and hope I am right about Chevy.

Noel I am less confident about but we'll see. It's a really tough business even coach's I have allot of respect for like Tippett aren't doing much better this season results wise than Claude. I think Noel knows the game I am just not sold he can lead the modern NHL men but time will tell. Coaching is quirky all of a sudden Boudreau and Carlyle look like they know what they are doing again after getting fired last year. Hitch is in the wilderness for a while then comes roaring back last season?

My belief is stable ownership and Managment are a huge bonus "IF" ownership has picked the right horse to back...... but stable coaching is not needed and sometimes change is both nessesary and a good thing. I think it too early to make the call on Claude but by the end of next season we might be needing a change if the team isn't moving in the right direction.

 

[sully1410]

That is why the argument was in 2 parts. You think that roster moves are exclusively Chevy's or Noels? No. They look at players together and evaluate their play and suitability in roles and what level they are capable of. Of course Noel wants to win NOW. That is his job. If he doesn't think Machacek or Scheifele are going to help the team win it is his duty to emote that to Cheveldayoff.

It's both of their jobs though to develop the talent that they have. They have a job to make this team successful....and Mark is supposed to be our #1 Center of the future. His development is pretty crucial
To the success of this team.

IMO....he would have developed better up here, and I don't think he was given a proper opportunityto show that he could stick up here.

 

[GJF]

Trouba/Scheifele - I wouldn't be surprised if they get a full camp, some good pre-season in and RS games, only to be sent to the AHL for a month or so. They'll be full timers by the end of the 13/14 season.

Jokinen/Thorburn/Stuart - Only staying with us due to contracts. There's no potential with these players, all three are on a decline and are becoming redundant.

Clitsome/Wright/Peluso - Will probably be re-signed, they do show potential to improve and have a role. Wright has another year on his contract.

Wellwood/Tangradi/Santorelli/Meech - Borderline guys that will be re-signed if we cannot replace them. Santorelli and Tangradi still have time to prove themselves and could move into the above group. Meech and Wellwood are what they are.

Hainsey - Re-signed due to vet experience and willingness to work with younger players. No need to keep him long term, although that may be what he wants.

Antropov - flip a coin. If we need him, re-sign, if not no big deal.

Miettenen - Don't really want to keep him.

Gagnon - Can't really say much

Montoya - Good to keep because he challenges Pavelec a bit, and their styles are drastically different. Pavelec needs to be faster like Montoya.

Wheeler, Burmi, Little, Bogosian, Redmond, Postma, Kulda- All RFA's that will be re-signed, no secret there. Give Burmi a 2 year cheap show me contract.

Santorelli over Antropov?

No, please not. Antropov is a useful piece, no matter what most people that don't give a **** about looking on anything else than speed and goals scored think about him.

 

[ps241]

I'm not saying it's done intentionally....I'm just saying that they're doing it wrong.

I don't think that Scheifele stood to gain a single thing by going back to junior. I also don't think that Noel and Chevy gave him the best chance to succeed with giving him crap minutes, in an area where he wasn't going to be effective.

I hear what Chevy says about wantig him to be stronger on his feet and just stronger in general...who do you think has better assets to make that happen?

The Winnipeg Jets...the NHL team, worth about 170million dollars. a franchise whos business is winning the Stanley Cup. Or the Barrie Colts. The OHL team, worth a bit less then 170mill.

If his strength is an issue...why not put him in the best possible situation to fix that issue?

That's just me.

I don't know Sully I think looking back Mark improved in his 2nd season in the OHL but he didn't dominate night in night out so there was room to get better and that was his next step going into this season and IMHO he has done that. I do think the quality minutes and being leaned on to carry a team are all things that are good for the development of someone you want to play top 6 minutes at some point. As to the size and strength issues most of that is going to happen in the off season anyways and you can bet that will be on a strict program designed or at least controlled by the Jets staff. also there is the part that mother nature takes care of and that is just the natural maturation process that time brings.

Many many top guys have played the extra two seasons in junior (Getzlaf, Perry, Carter, Eberle) and some have even gone on to split time between the parent club and the AHL the following season. I don't see it as a waist of time at all.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

That is why the argument was in 2 parts. You think that roster moves are exclusively Chevy's or Noels? No. They look at players together and evaluate their play and suitability in roles and what level they are capable of. Of course Noel wants to win NOW. That is his job. If he doesn't think Machacek or Scheifele are going to help the team win it is his duty to emote that to Cheveldayoff.

Of course they talk. I know this stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. I would expect they are touching base several times a day. Doesn't mean I always agree with how he uses his roster.

It obviously is just you. There is A LOT to be learned in the OHL if you haven't won a championship. Someone who doesn't think going through an NHL style playoffs as a leader and someone who is relied upon to score isn't an extremely important developmental tool is missing something. You aren't learning that anywhere.

You can bring in a bunch of raw talent into the NHL who is not fully developed and hope to do that in a league that is about winning, not teaching or development. That player will play on the 4th line and people will ***** and moan that they aren't getting line mates or playing time (sound familiar).

OR you can give that player more time to cook. They can get bigger, stronger, and more mentally mature. They can learn how to not only win, but lead a winner. Then, they can come to the NHL with not only raw talent but more mental tools in their toolbox and a winning mentality and spirit.

I just don't see how people are missing this. You can be the Edmonton Oilers, or you can be the Detroit Red Wings. Sure, the Oilers might make the playoffs this year, but look what they've been through. Will they EVER win a cup? How many of their core's years will they have burnt when they do? Look what happened to the Hawks. Some of that is due to awful roster moves but they got into cap trouble also because they were burning cheap contract years on players who weren't ready to meaningfully contribute. Luckily they made some shrewd moves and had others coming up but there are plenty of other examples of teams with very talented players who wasted that talent by developing them at the NHL level.

I guess the bottom line is there is 2 schools of thought here. I am very glad that the Jets are taking the proper path, as much as some around here don't like it.

I guess there is absolutely no middle ground right? You either throw your entire prospect base in the NHL or you wait 5 years for every prospect? No grey area whatsoever?

Players are ready when they are ready. Some are ready at 18. Some are ready at 21. Some are ready at 28. Having set timelines, having an absolute # of years for players, having requirements players are 100%, that's just not the right thinking, IMO. Players and development are tricky and VERY fluid.

Sometimes a player is ready, but not fully developed. Unless you think it was luck that even Crosby improved on his rookie season? But part of roster management is also using players in the right roles, exploiting their strengths, and improving or covering up their weaknesses. Not everybody is going to be successful on a 4th line, not everybody is going to be successful in a 2nd line role. The ability to integrate new/young talent is key for a coach, and so far Noel has only proven to me that he does not have the ability to do that.

I'm curious as to which players the Blackhawks "burned" a year of ELC's when they weren't ready to contribute when it got them a Stanley Cup with their young players playing big minutes (Toews, Kane, Byfuglien, Bolland, Ladd). I mean really?

 

[allan5oh]

Santorelli over Antropov?

No, please not. Antropov is a useful piece, no matter what most people that don't give a **** about looking on anything else than speed and goals scored think about him.

I never said that. He is a useful piece, but if we can replace him with an upgrade go for it. Antropov is proven, Santorelli is not. We know exactly what we get with Antro, and Santorelli has yet to prove himself.

I wasn't comparing players at all.

 

[sully1410]

It obviously is just you. There is A LOT to be learned in the OHL if you haven't won a championship. Someone who doesn't think going through an NHL style playoffs as a leader and someone who is relied upon to score isn't an extremely important developmental tool is missing something. You aren't learning that anywhere.

You can bring in a bunch of raw talent into the NHL who is not fully developed and hope to do that in a league that is about winning, not teaching or development. That player will play on the 4th line and people will ***** and moan that they aren't getting line mates or playing time (sound familiar).

OR you can give that player more time to cook. They can get bigger, stronger, and more mentally mature. They can learn how to not only win, but lead a winner. Then, they can come to the NHL with not only raw talent but more mental tools in their toolbox and a winning mentality and spirit.

I just don't see how people are missing this. You can be the Edmonton Oilers, or you can be the Detroit Red Wings. Sure, the Oilers might make the playoffs this year, but look what they've been through. Will they EVER win a cup? How many of their core's years will they have burnt when they do? Look what happened to the Hawks. Some of that is due to awful roster moves but they got into cap trouble also because they were burning cheap contract years on players who weren't ready to meaningfully contribute. Luckily they made some shrewd moves and had others coming up but there are plenty of other examples of teams with very talented players who wasted that talent by developing them at the NHL level.

I guess the bottom line is there is 2 schools of thought here. I am very glad that the Jets are taking the proper path, as much as some around here don't like it.

Sure you can learn from that, but I have a hard time believing he's going to become a better player playing with 16-17yr olds then he will playing with Men. I'll repeat what I said when he was sent down, if he was going to the AHL...I really wouldn't care, but he's above the OHL.

And what you say is great and all, but they didn't send him down to learn the game or develop his character, his offense or Leadership...they sent him down because thy didnt think he was strong enough to be in bigs quite yet. Chevy's words were that you can't rush physical development...which is true....but you can definitely help it along given the right circumstances. I think it would have been better for him to have those facilities open to him. Right now....he doesn't.

It just comes back around...where so you think is the best place develop strength. A professional team with pro level equipment and facilities....or an amateur team with amateur level facilities.

 

[ps241]

It's both of their jobs though to develop the talent that they have. They have a job to make this team successful....and Mark is supposed to be our #1 Center of the future. His development is pretty crucial
To the success of this team.

IMO....he would have developed better up here, and I don't think he was given a proper opportunityto show that he could stick up here.

If we get lucky Mark will be like Spezza or Getzlaf....those tall guys where it take some time to grow into their bodies and find their game.......Mark has great skills but he was a string bean with balance issues and it's just going to take a little longer for him to mature. I agree he was not give a trial run in the NHL games this season that set him up for success but it wasn't preseason and every game counted which didn't afford the Jets the luxury Mark might have needed.

 

[GJF]

allan5oh, well it looks more like the Welly/Tangrad/Santorelli/Meech are more important to get re-signed as Antropov... Antropov is more like "he's useless anyway, flip a coin it doesn't matter anyway"


but if you say you didn't ment it like that, all right

 

[Gm0ney]

It obviously is just you. There is A LOT to be learned in the OHL if you haven't won a championship. Someone who doesn't think going through an NHL style playoffs as a leader and someone who is relied upon to score isn't an extremely important developmental tool is missing something. You aren't learning that anywhere.

You can bring in a bunch of raw talent into the NHL who is not fully developed and hope to do that in a league that is about winning, not teaching or development. That player will play on the 4th line and people will ***** and moan that they aren't getting line mates or playing time (sound familiar).

OR you can give that player more time to cook. They can get bigger, stronger, and more mentally mature. They can learn how to not only win, but lead a winner. Then, they can come to the NHL with not only raw talent but more mental tools in their toolbox and a winning mentality and spirit.

I just don't see how people are missing this. You can be the Edmonton Oilers, or you can be the Detroit Red Wings. Sure, the Oilers might make the playoffs this year, but look what they've been through. Will they EVER win a cup? How many of their core's years will they have burnt when they do? Look what happened to the Hawks. Some of that is due to awful roster moves but they got into cap trouble also because they were burning cheap contract years on players who weren't ready to meaningfully contribute. Luckily they made some shrewd moves and had others coming up but there are plenty of other examples of teams with very talented players who wasted that talent by developing them at the NHL level.

I guess the bottom line is there is 2 schools of thought here. I am very glad that the Jets are taking the proper path, as much as some around here don't like it.

I believe it's debatable as to whether it's the correct path. But if you want to make this board more of an echo chamber, then I think you're on the right track.

 

[allan5oh]

allan5oh, well it looks more like the Welly/Tangrad/Santorelli/Meech are more important to get re-signed as Antropov... Antropov is more like "he's useless anyway, flip a coin it doesn't matter anyway"


but if you say you didn't ment it like that, all right

No big deal, I can see how that was taken. I just don't see him fitting in long term with the team. I could see how Tangradi or Santorelli could, but only if they turn out.

 

[sully1410]

I don't know Sully I think looking back Mark improved in his 2nd season in the OHL but he didn't dominate night in night out so there was room to get better and that was his next step going into this season and IMHO he has done that. I do think the quality minutes and being leaned on to carry a team are all things that are good for the development of someone you want to play top 6 minutes at some point. As to the size and strength issues most of that is going to happen in the off season anyways and you can bet that will be on a strict program designed or at least controlled by the Jets staff. also there is the part that mother nature takes care of and that is just the natural maturation process that time brings.

Many many top guys have played the extra two seasons in junior (Getzlaf, Perry, Carter, Eberle) and some have even gone on to split time between the parent club and the AHL the following season. I don't see it as a waist of time at all.

I'm not saying that there is no benefit to staying down longer...well that's actually exactly what I said....I'm just saying the areas of his game that needed to be worked on, could have been done up here. But I Mean really...how would we know. He only played half an hour of pro hockey being up here.

 

[Jet]

Of course they talk. I know this stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. I would expect they are touching base several times a day. Doesn't mean I always agree with how he uses his roster.



I guess there is absolutely no middle ground right? You either throw your entire prospect base in the NHL or you wait 5 years for every prospect? No grey area whatsoever?

Players are ready when they are ready. Some are ready at 18. Some are ready at 21. Some are ready at 28. Having set timelines, having an absolute # of years for players, having requirements players are 100%, that's just not the right thinking, IMO. Players and development are tricky and VERY fluid.

I'm curious as to which players the Blackhawks "burned" a year of ELC's when they weren't ready to contribute when it got them a Stanley Cup with their young players playing big minutes (Toews, Kane, Byfuglien, Bolland, Ladd). I mean really?

There it is. The fact is, the Jets do not think that Scheifele is ready to contribute at an NHL level -- they do not think he is ready. Of course it's on a game by game basis. I actually wouldn't be surprised to see Trouba a regular on this team before Scheifele. Why? Roles. I think Trouba might be more physically and mentally ready to step in as a bottom pair guy than Scheifele is to come in and play top 6 where he belongs.

People have Mark in as 2C next season which might happen but that is a lot harder to do than some might think.

As for the Hawks, in retrospect they may not have been the best example, but the mere fact that they had to dismantle after one cup should show that they burnt years of their young talent on wasted NHL years when they could have taken a more measured approach. Again, I know a lot of that was bad choices by Tallon (Khabibulin e.g.) but if you are going to spend 5+ years sucking and drafting high, you had better be a cup contender for more than a couple years as a reward.

 

[sully1410]

If we get lucky Mark will be like Spezza or Getzlaf....those tall guys where it take some time to grow into their bodies and find their game.......Mark has great skills but he was a string bean with balance issues and it's just going to take a little longer for him to mature. I agree he was not give a trial run in the NHL games this season that set him up for success but it wasn't preseason and every game counted which didn't afford the Jets the luxury Mark might have needed.

I guess I see that point...but they sat him for alot of the games they lost anyways...so it's not like playing Mark would have changed anything.

 

[Jet]

I believe it's debatable as to whether it's the correct path. But if you want to make this board more of an echo chamber, then I think you're on the right track.

What the hell does this mean? Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and to voice it.

Guess what? I am also a poster here, and I am entitled to my opinon and to rebut other's opinions that I do not agree with.

What I was saying with that comment is the Jets organization looks like they agree with what I'm saying, and it shows in their actions.

Just out of curiosity, would you have made the above comment if I weren't a moderator? None of us -- Holden, Guerzy, Hammer, Klaus, Hank, argue our points as moderators. We do it as fans of this team and hockey. Proof is me and Holden duking it out here all the time

EDIT: Just as a follow up, if most of the people here are saying one thing, maybe, just maybe, it's because they are right? It doesn't mean you can't have a converse opinion.

 

[surixon]

Of course they talk. I know this stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. I would expect they are touching base several times a day. Doesn't mean I always agree with how he uses his roster.



I guess there is absolutely no middle ground right? You either throw your entire prospect base in the NHL or you wait 5 years for every prospect? No grey area whatsoever?

Players are ready when they are ready. Some are ready at 18. Some are ready at 21. Some are ready at 28. Having set timelines, having an absolute # of years for players, having requirements players are 100%, that's just not the right thinking, IMO. Players and development are tricky and VERY fluid.

I'm curious as to which players the Blackhawks "burned" a year of ELC's when they weren't ready to contribute when it got them a Stanley Cup with their young players playing big minutes (Toews, Kane, Byfuglien, Bolland, Ladd). I mean really?

I agree.

I am tired of the Detroit this Detroit that mantra that gets thrown around here. The reason they keep players out for so long is because they have more often than not drafted low and the players they take need an awful lot of work to ever make it. Look at who they have produced over the last number of years, its a collection of 3rd and 4th line forwards and 3rd pairing defense man. Not going to bash them for that as its good to have a steady stream of bottom 6 talent, but they haven't had prospects of Trouba's and Scheifele's pedigree for many years so who really knows how they would have handled these players.

The team I look at with regards to a template is the Ottawa Senators who imo are best drafting and development organization since Murray took over. If you look at them they take a multifaceted approach to prospect development based on the readiness of each individual player.

Karlasson: Left in Europe one year post draft before bringing him over to North America to play right off the bat for the Senators (Norris winner so clearly wasn't rushed nor needed the Detroit 5 year plan)

Cowen: Sent back to juniors twice before making the NHL full time (Had a terrific rookie year and its unfortunate that he suffered another severe injury)

Silverberg and Wiercoch (sp) Took the long run approach with both. Wierchoch 2 years of college plus a couple of AHL seasons. Silverberg spent a number of years in Europe honing his craft before coming over.

As can be seen all of the above have turned into excellent players and each followed very different development tracks. Good organizations recognize that players develop at different speeds and correctly tailor development plans based on the individual player. They don't force players into a one for all development mold.

 

[Le Golie]

It obviously is just you. There is A LOT to be learned in the OHL if you haven't won a championship. Someone who doesn't think going through an NHL style playoffs as a leader and someone who is relied upon to score isn't an extremely important developmental tool is missing something. You aren't learning that anywhere.

You can bring in a bunch of raw talent into the NHL who is not fully developed and hope to do that in a league that is about winning, not teaching or development. That player will play on the 4th line and people will ***** and moan that they aren't getting line mates or playing time (sound familiar).

OR you can give that player more time to cook. They can get bigger, stronger, and more mentally mature. They can learn how to not only win, but lead a winner. Then, they can come to the NHL with not only raw talent but more mental tools in their toolbox and a winning mentality and spirit.

I just don't see how people are missing this. You can be the Edmonton Oilers, or you can be the Detroit Red Wings. Sure, the Oilers might make the playoffs this year, but look what they've been through. Will they EVER win a cup? How many of their core's years will they have burnt when they do? Look what happened to the Hawks. Some of that is due to awful roster moves but they got into cap trouble also because they were burning cheap contract years on players who weren't ready to meaningfully contribute. Luckily they made some shrewd moves and had others coming up but there are plenty of other examples of teams with very talented players who wasted that talent by developing them at the NHL level.

I guess the bottom line is there is 2 schools of thought here. I am very glad that the Jets are taking the proper path, as much as some around here don't like it.

So it's the "proper" path because it's the one you prefer?

There are many ways to build a successful hockey team. The Boston Bruins don't suffer with Seguin and Hamilton in the NHL. The Habs are doing alright with Galchenyuk and Gallagher. Chicago is pretty decent even though they have guys like Saad and Shaw. Anaheim hasn't mandated AHL time for their guys either.

I can promise you all those teams are in the playoffs this year and Detroit is 50/50.

Detroit got lucky with two late picks that came at the perfect time, that allowed them a luxury that gained them a lot of praise but has produced very little for them recently. In the last seven years, the best draft pick they have developed is Darren Helm. With all due respect to Helm, that's awful. If that's a model the Jets follow, even though they draft higher and are able to acquire more talented prospects, we will see similar failures.

It's far too simple to have this fantasy for every player. Each player develops at a unique rate and not all players will benefit from the same development path. Every situation has to be treated independently and when a player is ready, he's ready.

 

[Heldig]

Keep in mind the lack of practise time and short turn around between games in this shortened season. Not ideal conditions for Scheiflie to train/practise/develop.

 

[Jet]

So it's the "proper" path because it's the one you prefer?

There are many ways to build a successful hockey team. The Boston Bruins don't suffer with Seguin and Hamilton in the NHL. The Habs are doing alright with Galchenyuk and Gallagher. Chicago is pretty decent even though they have guys like Saad and Shaw. Anaheim hasn't mandated AHL time for their guys either.

I can promise you all those teams are in the playoffs this year and Detroit is 50/50.

Detroit got lucky with two late picks that came at the perfect time, that allowed them a luxury that gained them a lot of praise but has produced very little for them recently. In the last seven years, the best draft pick they have developed is Darren Helm. With all due respect to Helm, that's awful. If that's a model the Jets follow, even though they draft higher and are able to acquire more talented prospects, we will see similar failures.

Yes, IMHO it is the proper path, otherwise I wouldn't be supporting it.

 

[sully1410]

Yes, IMHO it is the proper path, otherwise I wouldn't be supporting it.

But it doesn't mean that the rest of us are wrong because we have different beliefs about this then you.