Post-Game Talk: Jets buffalo Buffalo - 7:4 Final
- Thread starter jetsforever
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I don't know. I REALLY like Ristolainen. Big, competent, physical.
I'd take him on the Jets anyday. He'd have some ready made friends too!
- Jun 10, 2014
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No denying that. But then there is Bogo. And are we only going to compare Kane's scoring to Armia's scoring?
I've been reluctant to call that trade a win for us until we saw more results from the futures we got. Myers has stayed healthy for half a season (yay!) and is playing well. Armia has arrived. Roslovic is just about there and Lemieux shows real promise.
TBH, I like Armia so much that with Myers rediscovering his offense I'm ready to call it no worse than a draw without even counting Roslovic & Lemieux. I expect most Sabres fans to feel much the same at this point.
CaptainChef
Registered User
Bogo and Kane both really getting crapped on by the Buff fans. Bogo injured again apparently, and only part of that they hate is it kills his trade value.
The Kane-Bogo trade for Myers-Armia-Lemieux-Stafford-Roslovik looking more and more one-sided as time passes
- Jun 10, 2014
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Which one of last night's goals was on Mason? None, IMO. I don't just mean that none was a bad goal. I mean they were not on him at all. He played a very good game last night and kept Buffalo from getting back in it when it was still close.
Tom ServoMST3K
In search of a Steinbach Hero
I divided the trade into two portions when it happend. The Kane for Rental and Futures, and the Myers for Bogo swap.
Right now, I'd give Buffalo the advantage on the Kane portion of the trade, value wise. It was important to get a year of Stafford, and some nice prospects, but Kane is by far the best player out of that group at this point, and honestly, unless Roslovic develops into a 2nd line centre, he will be the best player in that portion. The Jets were forced by the locker room to make the trade, so I think Chevy did a nice job, but that portion isn't as one sided as Winnipeggers make it seem.
On the other hand, the Myers for Bogo swap was really nice for the Jets.
JetsWillFly4Ever
PLAY EHLERS 20 MIN A NIGHT
I disagree.
Kane is the best player in the deal, I'll give you that. Right this second though, there is no way I would trade Roslovic, Armia and Lemieux for him (even if I was another team and there was no history in WPG). So that means, was the two years previous worth the difference? I suppose you could argue that it was, but you could also argue that it wasn't. Kane had 43 points in 70 games last year, 35 in 65 the year before, that's really not amazing production. He has been very good this year though.
Myers for Bogo is an absolute slaughter for us. Bogo is barely hanging on as a bottom pairing guy right now, that is being forced to play more minutes due to a porous d corps. His contract is an albatross that would hurt us for years going forward.
I tended to agree with you before this year that it was closer than most people thought. The development of Armia/Lemieux/Roslovic and the health and solid play of Myers have changed my mind. Add on the fact that Bogo looks horrible and the deal has swung massively back in our favour.
Do or Die
Registered User
- Jun 28, 2011
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Jets got rid of a massive distraction, and cap relief, picked up terrific depth overall, and this kid Roslovic has big upside. Great trade.
TannedBum
Registered User
- Jul 23, 2014
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Could Armia do nowadays 40p/70gp with same usage ? Easily. Is Armia far more versatile ? Easily. Just couple of things to consider.
i don't see how this trade can't be seen as an all-out steal for the Jets.
dumping Kane for a bag of hockey pucks would have been a net positive. sometimes you gotta get rid of that negativity in order to succeed. the fact that the netted you 3 legit prospects and a VERY good one-year rental player was great. Kane's scoring but the Sabres are in the toilet. so it's all for naught.
Bogo (oft injured) for Myers (oft injured) is a theoretical wash, but at his best, Bogo's a bottom 3 d-man. Myers is a pretty good 2nd pairing D-man. doesn't sound like much of a difference between the two, but 9 times outta 10 i'd rather have a healthy Myers than a healthy Bogo on my team. pizza diet no more.
antiqueslivers
Registered User
- Apr 16, 2015
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man I would literally take hendricks over kane on a 1 for 1 trade. I'd be curious to see what Kane's effect is on his team mates. Don't know if its quantifiable but I will more then curious to see how buffalo plays without kane on the team. I was super down on the idea of hendricks taking 4th line center spot because I never payed attention to him when on the oilers or any other team, I just went by his personal stats. Yet without changing much roster wise Edmonton and Winnipeg have had a complete switcheroo of fortunes. Oh and the players on our team/coach/staff all gushed about hendricks before he played his first game and still do to this day, with Kane there is a lot of .. "eeh its not a big deal" or something meh like that, that or a hockey response.
Dayofthedogs
Bettman's hammer
I like to judge trades based on a tangible benefits to the organization. As in playoff appearances and success plus the contributions of players traded to this goal.
Why? Because an organization really only benefits financially from those players with some extra home game revenue and merch sales.
Also I only count players on the contracts they were traded on or in the case of a prospect or pick until they hit UFA status for the first time.
Therefore,
14/15
Winnipeg wins with2 home games and huge contributions from Myers and Stafford
15/16 both teams loose
16/17 both teams loose
16/17 to be determined but Winnipeg looks pretty Rosey getting big contributions from Armia and Myers with small contributions from Lemmy and Roslo
So Winnipeg is up 2 home playoff games to 0 for the Sabers
Winnipeg 2 Buffalo 0
Who cares if we were to trade Chef and Connor for McDavid and miss the playoffs for the next 8 years while EDM makes it for example.
What difference does it make if Kane score 100 points this season and the team has no success because of it.
Why? Because an organization really only benefits financially from those players with some extra home game revenue and merch sales.
Also I only count players on the contracts they were traded on or in the case of a prospect or pick until they hit UFA status for the first time.
Therefore,
14/15
Winnipeg wins with2 home games and huge contributions from Myers and Stafford
15/16 both teams loose
16/17 both teams loose
16/17 to be determined but Winnipeg looks pretty Rosey getting big contributions from Armia and Myers with small contributions from Lemmy and Roslo
So Winnipeg is up 2 home playoff games to 0 for the Sabers
Winnipeg 2 Buffalo 0
Who cares if we were to trade Chef and Connor for McDavid and miss the playoffs for the next 8 years while EDM makes it for example.
What difference does it make if Kane score 100 points this season and the team has no success because of it.
Tom ServoMST3K
In search of a Steinbach Hero
Roslovic is looking like a great piece, and his emergence is what makes the Kane portion tilt more towards the Jets.
I like Armia and Lemiux, but they'll only ever be Bottom 6 players, unless Armia takes a big leap forward.
Myers is looking great this year especially though.
SensibleGuy
Registered User
- Nov 26, 2011
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You have a pretty high opinion of Kane. I think Roslovic could be a 45 point guy very soon. Kane may be the best player in the trade, but not by that much. And that leaves Stafford out and he was a valuable player during his time here.
Tom ServoMST3K
In search of a Steinbach Hero
Plus, he can actually skate.
I loved Wellwood's skill, but speedster he was not.
Best value player the Jets have ever signed.
2011/2012 Kyle Wellwood:
Salary: League Minimum
Stats: 77 GP 18 G 29 A 47 Pts
Jetfaninflorida
Southernmost Jet Fan
It was a great road win. Always nice to beat the Sabres since we have had trouble with them in the past. We had a weird road trip where we tossed our sticks on the ice in Detroit and got smoked, then rolled off the beach into Sunrise and got sand kicked in our faces by the Panthers, and then put up one of our best efforts of the year in Tampa to earn a point there. But aside from those two games (Detroit and Sunrise), it has been a while since we have come up flat against crappy teams. For the most part, we are winning the games that we should win, and often in convincing fashion. The third period was a bit worrisome, but not much. Scoring effects came into effect and we were really just running out the clock.
Now, regarding the comments about Chevy being the best GM in the league? Come on, man. Can we at least win a playoff series before knighting Chevy as King of the NHL? Yes, the team is having a great year and he deserves his share of the credit, but (IMHO) we shouldn't give out the ribbon to the winner before the race has even started. Remember - win race, get ribbon. Not get ribbon, then run race to see how you do. And also, does a GM get best GM in the league award for the team having one good year out of six? I'm just saying.
Regarding the trade, I want to give a point of view to perhaps balance out some of the euphoria. First, count Stafford as a rental please. That's what he was as part of the deal. A Rental. We had to overpay him pretty heavily to re-sign him. And I wasn't a big fan of overpaying him while dickering over $250k to lose Frolik. Between Stafford and Frolik, there is no question that Fro is the better player. If there was no Stafford in the mix, I believe that Chevy would have gotten off his wallet to keep Frolik. Kane is still the best player from that trade and let's see what Buffalo gets back before passing final judgement as to just how badly 'we won' that trade. Yeah, it looks good for us now and possibly a slam dunk based upon our expectations of future results. The team is having a great year, and Armia and Myers are doing their part. And, I like what we have seen from Roslo, but it's not like he has a proven NHL record yet. Roslo could be the piece that renders the trade a slam dunk in our favor, but let's give it some time. Remember - win race, get ribbon. I like Armia for what he brings. Huge asset to the team. But it's not like he scores much. Yeah, he is having a career year points wise, but he is still at about 1/3 of a point per game in his NHL career. But he is a solid middle sixer. Lemieux still on the bubble of NHL. Let's see if he makes a career out of it - I like the guy and I hope so. Myers has been the best NHL player back for us in the trade. Way better than Bogo. But he has missed a lot of games (like Bogo) and he seems to be one bad fall away from serious (again) hip trouble. Remember, Kasdorf hasn't worked out, but they also had a wildcard prospect as part of the deal (although I don't think there were that many expectations around him).
Now before you blast me, I want to be clear on something. I like the trade too. Number 1 reason, because Kane had become a cancer in the locker room and hated being a member of the Winnipeg Jets. You can't have that. But as a player, I liked what he brought. And Chevy did well in the deal given that he had boxed himself into a corner and had to trade Kane since the tracksuit incident hit the press. Let's not forget that Chevy bungled that whole thing by not addressing the cancer earlier. Number 2 reason, Myers is way better than Bogo, and Armia has become a key contributor - just not so much in the scoring category. Number 3 reason, the first round pick (Roslo) could turn out to be the piece that makes this trade a slam dunk win for us.
Now please, before you crap all over me for the above, reflect upon what I have said. Think about it a bit. Remember - win race, get ribbon. And thanks for your interest in my opinion.
Now, regarding the comments about Chevy being the best GM in the league? Come on, man. Can we at least win a playoff series before knighting Chevy as King of the NHL? Yes, the team is having a great year and he deserves his share of the credit, but (IMHO) we shouldn't give out the ribbon to the winner before the race has even started. Remember - win race, get ribbon. Not get ribbon, then run race to see how you do. And also, does a GM get best GM in the league award for the team having one good year out of six? I'm just saying.
Regarding the trade, I want to give a point of view to perhaps balance out some of the euphoria. First, count Stafford as a rental please. That's what he was as part of the deal. A Rental. We had to overpay him pretty heavily to re-sign him. And I wasn't a big fan of overpaying him while dickering over $250k to lose Frolik. Between Stafford and Frolik, there is no question that Fro is the better player. If there was no Stafford in the mix, I believe that Chevy would have gotten off his wallet to keep Frolik. Kane is still the best player from that trade and let's see what Buffalo gets back before passing final judgement as to just how badly 'we won' that trade. Yeah, it looks good for us now and possibly a slam dunk based upon our expectations of future results. The team is having a great year, and Armia and Myers are doing their part. And, I like what we have seen from Roslo, but it's not like he has a proven NHL record yet. Roslo could be the piece that renders the trade a slam dunk in our favor, but let's give it some time. Remember - win race, get ribbon. I like Armia for what he brings. Huge asset to the team. But it's not like he scores much. Yeah, he is having a career year points wise, but he is still at about 1/3 of a point per game in his NHL career. But he is a solid middle sixer. Lemieux still on the bubble of NHL. Let's see if he makes a career out of it - I like the guy and I hope so. Myers has been the best NHL player back for us in the trade. Way better than Bogo. But he has missed a lot of games (like Bogo) and he seems to be one bad fall away from serious (again) hip trouble. Remember, Kasdorf hasn't worked out, but they also had a wildcard prospect as part of the deal (although I don't think there were that many expectations around him).
Now before you blast me, I want to be clear on something. I like the trade too. Number 1 reason, because Kane had become a cancer in the locker room and hated being a member of the Winnipeg Jets. You can't have that. But as a player, I liked what he brought. And Chevy did well in the deal given that he had boxed himself into a corner and had to trade Kane since the tracksuit incident hit the press. Let's not forget that Chevy bungled that whole thing by not addressing the cancer earlier. Number 2 reason, Myers is way better than Bogo, and Armia has become a key contributor - just not so much in the scoring category. Number 3 reason, the first round pick (Roslo) could turn out to be the piece that makes this trade a slam dunk win for us.
Now please, before you crap all over me for the above, reflect upon what I have said. Think about it a bit. Remember - win race, get ribbon. And thanks for your interest in my opinion.
Dayofthedogs
Bettman's hammer
Honestly. What does having the best player in a trade make if the team they got traded to has 0 success while he is there?
- Jun 10, 2014
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You're not alone in dividing it up that way. But we don't know how that negotiation took place. Kane was the obvious starting point. What was offered for him and who asked for what after that is completely unknown.
I think most Jets fans were completely taken by surprise when Bogo was included, although it made sense in hindsight, as soon as a few things were considered.
My guess is that the offer for Kane started out as Myers plus our choice of Stafford or Chris Stewart plus the late 1st. This is pure guesswork based on the fact that Buffalo was known to have been trying to move those players for some time. From there it might have progressed something like Chevy insisted on one more piece, one of the futures. Back and forth, finally we had to add Kasdorf.
Long story short, I don't think it actually divided up so neatly. I prefer to look at the 2 packages as the 2 pieces. Any attempt at dividing it up has always struck me as a little artificial.
Unless Roslovic makes it as a top 6 F (RW or C), I think Kane remains the best player in the deal. But just looking at it as a hockey trade, ignoring Kane's baggage I like Stafford + Myers + Armia for Bogo + Kane + Kasdorf. Bogo has been such a dud that his value is about = to what we got from Stafford. So Myers + Armia for Kane. So there I am, dividing it up.
Just adding up the values. Kasdorf is pretty much a non-entity (sorry Jason, nothing personal). Close enough for a tie already for me. Any edge, either way is slight. If you like, we can toss Lemieux on that pile just to make sure we have covered off all the value. We are still ahead by whatever Roslovic turns into.
SensibleGuy
Registered User
- Nov 26, 2011
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Kane wasn't just a cancer in the room. He was gone. He was legitimately done as a Jet. There was no option that would have seen him on the ice for us again...so in essence Chevy got a bunch of stuff for nothing because at that point Kane was nothing for us.
Maukkis
EZ4ENCE
- Mar 16, 2016
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It makes the organization look awful.
Jetfaninflorida
Southernmost Jet Fan
Kind of. I mean he was done as a Jet, I agree. But like a foreclosure auction, there are always people bidding on the asset, so there is value there even if diminished.
I think that your point goes more to how badly Chevy F'd up on the guy that was always unhappy and had asked for trades every year. Maybe if he was doing some GM'ing back then, Chevy could have addressed the Kane situation earlier and gotten more out of him. I do agree that given the mess he put himself into, he did well in the deal with the Sabres.
- Mar 10, 2010
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The Sabres will need to do well with the assets they get back for Kane at the TD or this is a disaster. Not dead yet but not looking good for Buffalo at this snap shot in time.
SensibleGuy
Registered User
- Nov 26, 2011
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It's entirely possible Chevy never got offered as much for Kane in prior attempts to trade him. The trade with Buffalo was sort of a perfect storm situation.
Jetfaninflorida
Southernmost Jet Fan
They were definately in the situation were they wanted to lose on the ice in order to win in the draft. And Kaner being out for shoulder surgery was actually seen as a benefit for them. It was definitely a weird situation.
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