Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Part 20 - Second line centre edition?

[Habs Icing]

Good thread that applies to Kotkaniemi

That's a ridiculous tweet. Here are the centers for this upcoming season:
Suzuki
KK
Evans

Maybe
Paquette/Poehling/Perrault.

Not only are you putting unproven players in situations above their stations but you're doing it all at once. If we start the season with this center corps expect to be fighting for a lottery pick.

Suzuki will be left out dangling in the wind because KK and Evans will be promoted to #2 and #3 centers respectively, something neither has been asked to do in previous years at the NHL level. And then you compound that stupidity with the fact that you don't have a competent center for your fourth line. I can understand having a competent middle center that would allow you to take a chance with KK at #2 and Evans at #4. You will have options during the rough patches in the season. But the way the team is structured right now you're throwing these kids (KK and Evans and Suzuki by extension) into a freaking mess.

But of course the Habs don't play their young players. What a crock!

 

[Habs Halifax]

That's a ridiculous tweet. Here are the centers for this upcoming season:
Suzuki
KK
Evans

Maybe
Paquette/Poehling/Perrault.

Not only are you putting unproven players in situations above their stations but you're doing it all at once. If we start the season with this center corps expect to be fighting for a lottery pick.

Suzuki will be left out dangling in the wind because KK and Evans will be promoted to #2 and #3 centers respectively, something neither has been asked to do in previous years at the NHL level. And then you compound that stupidity with the fact that you don't have a competent center for your fourth line. I can understand having a competent middle center that would allow you to take a chance with KK at #2 and Evans at #4. You will have options during the rough patches in the season. But the way the team is structure right now you're throwing these kids (KK and Evans and Suzuki by extension) into a freaking mess.

But yeah the Habs don't play their young players.

Going to burn more if Danault is with the Kings putting up 50 pts where they make the playoffs and we don't. I've said it many times, I would have no problem overpaying Danault for 3 years. I would have even considered to match that $5.5M for 5 years. Overpayment? Sure but the alternatives could be worse. We are about to find that out if we make no changes from what we see now.

Funny part? Many in our fan base agree with Bergevin at letting him go. Sure you guys are happy about that and agreeing with the GM you don't like? I thought Danault was easily replaceable?

However, I do think Bergevin is tinkering with other options and he knows the concerns with our centers after Suzuki just as much as we do. What can he do about it is the unanswered question

 

[BLONG7]

Going to burn more if Danault is with the Kings putting up 50 pts where they make the playoffs and we don't. I've said it many times, I would have no problem overpaying Danault for 3 years. I would have even considered to match that $5.5M for 5 years. Overpayment? Sure but the alternatives could be worse. We are about to find that out if we make no changes from what we see now.

Funny part? Many in our fan base agree with Bergevin at letting him go. Sure you guys are happy about that and agreeing with the GM you don't like? I thought Danault was easily replaceable?

However, I do think Bergevin is tinkering with other options and he knows the concerns with our centers after Suzuki just as much as we do. What can he do about it is the unanswered question

I think the role of Daanult is replaceable, by one of the kids, and that shutdown game can be taught....I also think Danault got all the credit for shutting lines down, and his wingers got zero credit....food for thought.
Losing Danault, hurts, but not as much as some think.....just my 2 cents.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I think the role of Daanult is replaceable, by one of the kids, and that shutdown game can be taught....I also think Danault got all the credit for shutting lines down, and his wingers got zero credit....food for thought.
Losing Danault, hurts, but not as much as some think.....just my 2 cents.

I'm a bit pissed off on both Bergevin and Danault for not finding middle ground but I'll reserve my true judgement when I see what Danault can do for the Kings and what we do without him. Danault's role is only replaceable in body. Whatever body you put there might not be as focused or effective as he is in that role.

If Seattle took Price, I'd be talking about rebuild and selling vets. And I would have not cared to let Danault walk. Got to wait a bit yet to see what Bergevin is up to I guess. I'm not a fan of wasting good years of Price and ELC/bridge year of the kids but I also don't want us signing bad contracts or trading for meh replacements

 

[bcv]

I haven’t thrown the towel on KK, quite the opposite actually. But we need to tone down the expectations for another 2 full seasons.
The biggest problem with KK actually has a name:


Brady Tkachuk .
It will haunt us for the next 15 years.

a 50 points guy will haunt us for 15 years... yeah right.

Tkachuk was never the pick and still isn't.

 

[Habs Halifax]

a 50 points guy will haunt us for 15 years... yeah right.

Tkachuk was never the pick and still isn't.

He's going to give the Sens nightmares on this next contract IMO. If the Sens want 8 years, they have to pay big time in AAV! If they want the AAV more manageable, he will push his way to fast track UFA. And he has the leverage to do it too.

 

[sandviper]

He's going to give the Sens nightmares on this next contract IMO. If the Sens want 8 years, they have to pay big time in AAV! If they want the AAV more manageable, he will push his way to fast track UFA. And he has the leverage to do it too.

Zero chance Sens go 8 years. Other than Melnick being cheap AF, Tkachuk probably wants a shorter 3-4 year deal so he can get the big one after when the cap goes up.

I mean, if somehow the Sens offer $7+, then maybe he'll take the 7-8 years, but I think we know the Sens won't do that given they've done that for Chabot and I think Melnick will lose a gasket if Dorion hands out another $8x8.

 

[417]

That's a ridiculous tweet. Here are the centers for this upcoming season:
Suzuki
KK
Evans

Maybe
Paquette/Poehling/Perrault.

Not only are you putting unproven players in situations above their stations but you're doing it all at once. If we start the season with this center corps expect to be fighting for a lottery pick.

Suzuki will be left out dangling in the wind because KK and Evans will be promoted to #2 and #3 centers respectively, something neither has been asked to do in previous years at the NHL level. And then you compound that stupidity with the fact that you don't have a competent center for your fourth line. I can understand having a competent middle center that would allow you to take a chance with KK at #2 and Evans at #4. You will have options during the rough patches in the season. But the way the team is structured right now you're throwing these kids (KK and Evans and Suzuki by extension) into a freaking mess.

But of course the Habs don't play their young players. What a crock!

They’ve gone into seasons with worse centers who had more experience.

so what?

They’re not going into game 7 of the Cup Finals next season….there’s no one out there in free agency whose going to move the needle.

so by all means, if you can find a middle 6C to come in via trade to help insulate those guys, go ahead…

good luck finding it though.

 

[Habs Halifax]

They’ve gone into seasons with worse centers who had more experience.

so what?

They’re not going into game 7 of the Cup Finals next season….there’s no one out there in free agency whose going to move the needle.

so by all means, if you can find a middle 6C to come in via trade to help insulate those guys, go ahead…

good luck finding it though.

I'm leaning towards just living with what we have as well. I think we all see the challenges of our depth after Suzuki. I've seen this a mile away when there was talk about letting Danault walk.

The funny part is some fans saying that Danault is easily replaceable so let him walk and now they are only thinking about how it looks after Suzuki now? It's like they think trades are easy? .

If we make no more moves, We got to live with what we have and this forces our coach to lean on KK more. Something many fans have been asking for a while now. Lets see how that plays out

 

[417]

Danault finished the season he apparently struggled with a 59.26 GF% 5on5, only Gallagher and Armia did better but they both missed quite some games!

So even if he didn't put up crazy offensive numbers he still managed to outplay his opposition at the end of the day. He was a net positive towards the team's success.

KK finished at 52% and Suzy was at 48.53%.

Considering the minutes each of them got and the matchups I am definitely concerned about going into next season without Danault sheltering them both.

I mean KK and Suzuki both started around 60% of the time in the offensive zone against lesser opposition while Danault got only 40% of offensive zone starts against the top lines on the other side and he still managed to do better than both of them in term of Goals scored vs Goals allowed while on the ice!

And you're trying to tell me that I should not be concerned about KK and Suzuki getting tougher minutes while they couldn't even handle adequately easier matchups?

Cool story...

You know what's an even cooler story?

You trying to paint what I bolded as relevant. The Habs were a middle of the pack team for all of this "net positive success".

They were a borderline playoff team, the 2 years prior, using this same "net positive success" rate, they missed the playoffs all together.

I think you need to revisit the meaning of "net positive".

You're desperately trying to hold on to mediocrity because you're afraid that Suzuki/Kotkaniemi/Evans might crumble under the pressure and...God forbid.

THE HABS MISS THE PLAYOFFS (queue dramatic music).

Miss me with all the drama man...I want a team that has higher goals then trying to squeeze into the playoffs.

Best way to do that is to get these young centers into situations where THEY are relied upon.

Yes, it won't be easy...hell...THEY MIGHT MISS THE PLAYOFFS NEXT SEASON (queue dramatic music again).

But in 2-3 years...we'll be way ahead of where we've been using your "net positive shccess6" strategy

 

[Captain Mountain]

They’ve gone into seasons with worse centers who had more experience.

so what?

They’re not going into game 7 of the Cup Finals next season….there’s no one out there in free agency whose going to move the needle.

so by all means, if you can find a middle 6C to come in via trade to help insulate those guys, go ahead…

good luck finding it though.

To add, Eichel is the only C on the trade market that can meaningfully move the needle. Habs also need a PMD, and there isn't really a fix either in free agency or the trade market.

The Habs are at the point where they need to trust in their drafting and development. Because if its not up to snuff, then they need to do something about it. Because you don't win the cup through trades and free agency.

 

[417]

I'm leaning towards just living with what we have as well. I think we all see the challenges of our depth after Suzuki. I've seen this a mile away when there was talk about letting Danault walk.

The funny part is some fans saying that Danault is easily replaceable so let him walk and now they are only thinking about how it looks after Suzuki now? It's like they think trades are easy? .

If we make no more moves, We got to live with what we have and this forces our coach to lean on KK more. Something many fans have been asking for a while now. Lets see how that plays out

I mean seriously ..what's the worse that could happen? Lol

It's not even a guarantee the Habs would have made the playoffs this year in an 82 game schedule.

So pardon me if I have alot of difficulty understanding why some are so terrified of going into the season with those 3.

 

[417]

To add, Eichel is the only C on the trade market that can meaningfully move the needle. Habs also need a PMD, and there isn't really a fix either in free agency or the trade market.

The Habs are at the point where they need to trust in their drafting and development. Because if its not up to snuff, then they need to do something about it. Because you don't win the cup through trades and free agency.

That's the thing for me...at a certain point you have to trust your scouting.

Kotkaniemi was drafted almost 4 years ago, he's going into his 4th year.

If at this point you're still not comfortable with him in a top 6 role. Then that's an indictment of your amateur scouting and an indication you need to make changes.

Its just funny to me watching the same people who were scared about Suzuki in a top 6 role heading into this season ...

Repeat the same garbage this offseason with Kotkaniemi.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I mean seriously ..what's the worse that could happen? Lol

It's not even a guarantee the Habs would have made the playoffs this year in an 82 game schedule.

So pardon me if I have alot of difficulty understanding why some are so terrified of going into the season with those 3.

I totally see your angle and you are consistent with your narratives. It's the ones who say let Danault walk and he can be easily replaced but they also say that we are unlikely to make the playoffs at the same time (with or without Danault) cause we are back in the Atlantic Division. They are all over the place and it's comical.

If we can't get a big fish, stick with what we have. Force Ducharme to lean on KK more. If he struggles, try Poehling. Wingers are mature and can help in many game situations

 

[417]

I totally see your angle and you are consistent with your narratives. It's the ones who say let Danault walk and he can be easily replaced but they also say that we are unlikely to make the playoffs at the same time (with or without Danault) cause we are back in the Atlantic Division. They are all over the place and it's comical.

I don't think Danault can be easily replaced personally.

I just don't think he NEEDS to be replaced.

The guys they have left over are different players and they need to be themselves and the team needs to shift it's identity.

If we can't get a big fish, stick with what we have. Force Ducharme to lean on KK more. If he struggles, try Poehling. Wingers are mature and can help in many game situations

That's where I'm at...if they can get a clear upgrade (i.e. Eichel) go ahead, I'm onboard.

But otherwise...you have players you drafted and/or developed for this specific role.

Play them!

 

[Captain Mountain]

That's the thing for me...at a certain point you have to trust your scouting.

Kotkaniemi was drafted almost 4 years ago, he's going into his 4th year.

If at this point you're still not comfortable with him in a top 6 role. Then that's an indictment of your amateur scouting and an indication you need to make changes.

Its just funny to me watching the same people who were scared about Suzuki in a top 6 role heading into this season ...

Repeat the same garbage this offseason with Kotkaniemi.

Which is why its time to give him a shot. Romanov too. Bergevin has done a pretty good job on the trade and free agency markets. But Montreal's still probably going to be behind teams that draft well and are getting major contributions from their prospects. For example, Benning has been awful in Vancouver, but he drafted guys like Boeser, Pettersson, Hughes, Hoglander and Demko. And this is cap league. You cannot afford to coddle players indefinitely.

If the Habs were ever going to be able to build off of their great run this season, outside of a good Eichel trade it was going to be off the backs of guys like Suzuki, Caufield, Kotkaniemi and Romanov.

 

[JoelWarlord]

Again, and what if they struggle mightly? You just throw the season away?

Yes? If Kotkaniemi and Suzuki struggle the season is "thrown away" no matter what. There is no plausible 2/3C available that would be able to genuinely step into a 2C role and help this team make the playoffs, again besides Jack Eichel which is a different discussion entirely. Signing Haula or Bozak or whatever isn't going to save the season if the young C's struggle, they're 3rd liners on a good team and we're not going anywhere if Haula/Bozak is our 2C.

Again, I don't understand why people are acting like we're contenders and this is a critical season where we can't afford some growing pains. Bergevin saw us lose Tatar, Danault, Weber, and Perry, and the replacements were a PP specialist in Hoffman, nobody, Savard, and Paquette/Perreault. I'm not sure if I have to really spell out what that signals, but I would hazard a guess that management does not believe it is absolutely critical for this team to make the playoffs next season.

 

[Heffyhoof]

Yes? If Kotkaniemi and Suzuki struggle the season is "thrown away" no matter what. There is no plausible 2/3C available that would be able to genuinely step into a 2C role and help this team make the playoffs, again besides Jack Eichel which is a different discussion entirely. Signing Haula or Bozak or whatever isn't going to save the season if the young C's struggle, they're 3rd liners on a good team and we're not going anywhere if Haula/Bozak is our 2C.

Again, I don't understand why people are acting like we're contenders and this is a critical season where we can't afford some growing pains. Bergevin saw us lose Tatar, Danault, Weber, and Perry, and the replacements were a PP specialist in Hoffman, nobody, Savard, and Paquette/Perreault. I'm not sure if I have to really spell out what that signals, but I would hazard a guess that management does not believe it is absolutely critical for this team to make the playoffs next season.

To be honest I prefer my Montreal Canadiens to be perennial also rans with a team built of a tonne of traded for and signed mercenary vets and like 3-4 guys we drafted.

 

[Kents polished head]

That's the thing for me...at a certain point you have to trust your scouting.

What exactly did Timmins to to gain anyone's trust in the past decade?

Its just funny to me watching the same people who were scared about Suzuki in a top 6 role heading into this season ...

Repeat the same garbage this offseason with Kotkaniemi.

Never had an issue about Suzuki being used as a top-6 C last offseason. In fact, I was pretty damn comfortable with Suzuki and Danault and vocally wanted Domi to get traded for a player who filled a need.
Kotkaniemi's progression had nothing to do with Suzuki's. Even if you want to believe the whole organization is out actively trying to sabotage Kotkaniemi... The guy was a healthy scratch with the Stanley Cup on the line. Suzuki was almost always on the ice in the last 5 mintues of game 5. That tells you something about how those two are in two completely different Worlds.

 

[DAChampion]

I don't think Danault can be easily replaced personally.

I just don't think he NEEDS to be replaced.

The guys they have left over are different players and they need to be themselves and the team needs to shift it's identity.

 

[JoelWarlord]

I don't think Danault can be easily replaced personally.
I just don't think he NEEDS to be replaced.
The guys they have left over are different players and they need to be themselves and the team needs to shift it's identity.

Exactly! The team used Danault in a specific way because he is one of the ~5 best defensive forwards on the planet, and we could add Tatar and Gallagher who are both extremely good defensive forwards and shooters that mesh well with Danault's playmaking to be a great overall line. In the playoffs we could add Lehkonen to the line and go all-in on neutralizing L1s and taking advantage of the L2-4 matchups. It makes perfect sense to do that, but his departure doesn't mean someone else has to step in to his role and do the same things.

We had division winning years + deep playoff runs with Plekanec and Desharnais, but suddenly now we need to find an exact replacement for Danault or we're screwed? I don't understand why it's apparently so complicated to just roll lines 1-4 with conventional deployment. Suzuki and Kotkaniemi don't need to be sheltered in regular shifts, nor do Evans and Paquette/Perreault. I think Danault has warped people's ideas of what good defensive forwards look like, because there's not a lot of teams that will be running two better defensive C's than Suzuki and Kotkaniemi in their top 6 next year.

 

[Archijerej]

Danault struggled for large portions of this season...

Danault's struggles last season were real, but largely overstated.

He was below his usual standard, but people make it sound like he was a liability. He wasn't. He'll be sorely missed.

 

[bcv]

Danault's struggles last season were real, but largely overstated.

He was below his usual standard, but people make it sound like he was a liability. He wasn't. He'll be sorely missed.

Danault is a good player that will be missed but I still wouldn't have given him that contract.

 

[417]

What exactly did Timmins to to gain anyone's trust in the past decade?

He's the guy in charge of the amateur department last I checked.

Never had an issue about Suzuki being used as a top-6 C last offseason. In fact, I was pretty damn comfortable with Suzuki and Danault and vocally wanted Domi to get traded for a player who filled a need.
Kotkaniemi's progression had nothing to do with Suzuki's. Even if you want to believe the whole organization is out actively trying to sabotage Kotkaniemi...

That's a ridiculous take...I don't believe that.

I just don't think they've been invested in him being more than a bit part on this team for 3 years. They wanted him to watch and learn mostly, but that time has come and gone..it's time to actually deploy him into the role you envisioned when you drafted him.

It's the next phase of his development.

Once more, you have a vivid imagination, but please don't turn your fairytales into my reality.

The guy was a healthy scratch with the Stanley Cup on the line. Suzuki was almost always on the ice in the last 5 mintues of game 5. That tells you something about how those two are in two completely different Worlds.

I'm not going to use a small sample and extrapolate. As I said, you have a vivid imagination so I'll leave the histrionics to you.

The coach had a game to win, he did what he felt be needed to do for that game.

I don't think that has any implication moving forward.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

They’ve gone into seasons with worse centers who had more experience.

so what?

They’re not going into game 7 of the Cup Finals next season….there’s no one out there in free agency whose going to move the needle.

so by all means, if you can find a middle 6C to come in via trade to help insulate those guys, go ahead…

good luck finding it though.

Yeah, good luck with that ! Every Habs fan should know from the center of his bones centers are soooo difficult to get. The last 30 years of lacking of centers are all wiped out. We all forgot, most Habs fans here are celebrating that Danault is gone, this is celebration time and they are right all the way because the season hasn't started yet.

But hey, if our young core of centers struggle, it's sooo easy to get one via trade, heh? So easy !!