Player Discussion Jeremy Swayman: VII - As featured in Episode 3 of Amazon's "FACEOFF: Inside the NHL

[smithformeragent]

One could make the argument that we're beating a dead horse here.

So be it. Discuss, if you so choose. We'll keep all the Swayman talk contained to this thread.

If you have nothing meaningful to contribute to the conversation, move along.

We will not have this devolve into thread hijacking and flaming of other posters.

@Gee Wally

We have numerous deletions and more in here. We know tension and emotions are high.
But you folks must simply stop taking personal shots at each. Stay to topic.

If not we will be left with no choice other than adding thread bans.

Click to read more...

 

[LiseL]

Like I’ve pointed out plenty of times here, the cap issues come not from signing your best players to fair market deals, but from extending yourself on overpayments to bottom of the roster players. In this case, Korpisalo, Peeke, and Zadorov jump right to the top of the list.

I’m mean shit, would you rather overpay your starting goalie by a little bit or grossly overpay your bottom pairing dmen and your back up goalie? It’s foolhardy to be arguing over a small amount of money for an impact player when you’re paying your bottom pairing nearly $8 mill a year collectively.

Oops, selected post in error.

 

[Demon Eyes]

It's not over till it's over. Neely held out himself and look at him now, Bruins president.

 

[OConnellsProtege]

After thinking about it for a bit and seeing how all of this has unfolded the past few days... Swayman is giving me Subban vibes. Great at his craft, but his priority appears to be in his name/brand. I could see the goalie hug thing ending up on a cereal box if this was the 90's. I could be wrong and hope I am, but I just can't get that thought out of my head lol.

 

[LiseL]

“Hearing you’re not worthy of what you think you’re worthy of” Wow. Isn’t that what every player hears in arbitration hearings?

It seems he has a big problem when management doesn't agree that he's worth what he thinks he's worth. Seems to be a recurring theme. The first time, he's ignoring the forum/circumstances involved: he wants to be paid more. Bruins want to pay less. As you stated, what did he think would happen? The Bruins would just fold and give him what he wants? If that would've been the case, they would've negotiated the contract before the hearing.

In this circumstance, again, management doesn't agree with what he considers his worth. He doesn't seem to understand that when a team signs a RFA to term, the overall amount will be less that what he might get overall with multiple contracts going forward, but that's because if he doesn't remain healthy or his play declines, they're still on the hook, he still gets paid. Or maybe he "knows" he'll be worth at least $13M by the end of that contract, because you know, he knows what he's worth. Whether he's able to play and/or play well for the entire term, well, that doesn't matter...he's worth it.

For a guy who seems so confident, his self-esteem seems to be easily bruised by contract negotiations that don't go his way.

 

[MarchysNoseKnows]

It seems he has a big problem when management doesn't agree that he's worth what he thinks he's worth. Seems to be a recurring theme. The first time, he's ignoring the forum/circumstances involved: he wants to be paid more. Bruins want to pay less. As you stated, what did he think would happen? The Bruins would just fold and give him what he wants? If that would've been the case, they would've negotiated the contract before the hearing.

In this circumstance, again, management doesn't agree with what he considers his worth. He doesn't seem to understand that when a team signs a RFA to term, the overall amount will be less that what he might get overall with multiple contracts going forward, but that's because if he doesn't remain healthy or his play declines, they're still on the hook, he still gets paid. Or maybe he "knows" he'll be worth at least $13M by the end of that contract, because you know, he knows what he's worth. Whether he's able to play and/or play well for the entire term, well, that doesn't matter...he's worth it.

For a guy who seems so confident, his self-esteem seems to be easily bruised by contract negotiations that don't go his way.

He’s being a bit of a baby yes. Great goalie. But bit of a baby right now.

 

[LiseL]

A lot of the "Swayman is being a baby" crowd are being seriously dishonest in here.

Stop acting like if you had a salary negotiation with your employer and they turned every possible thing they could into a negative to justify paying you less that in the next negotiation you'd hold no grudge and happily accept whatever they offered you and wouldn't push for all the pay you could.

And no, him being a pro athlete doesnt make it different. At the end of the day its just an employee/employer dispute

Who in the workplace could demand mediation (the equivalent of arbitration) if they didn't agree with the raise being offered?

Why did he want an arbitration? Did he think management would just roll over and he would win? Hadn't anyone explained to him how these things work? One side is trying to get a bigger raise, the other side is trying to get it to the # they want to pay so some things may be said by management to win the judgement. Didn't he know that's why most players try to avoid it?

Also, why is he taking everything they said literally, never considering it was a negotiating tactic? Is he that naive? If yes, was his agent too? Didn't the fact they traded Ullmark tell him they valued him? Didn't the latest contract offer show they were willing to sign him long-term at a fair price, not maximum price, as they would be assuming all of the risk if the contract doesn't age well but he would be guaranteed that money?

Just realized I asked a lots of questions. Feels like a game of Jeopardy but without the answers.

 

[LiseL]

Yes he should get the NHL minimum, maybe 800K instead of 775, but in no way should be be over million. Basically he should be less expensive than Lysell

I don't think they can offer him less that what he made last year unless he accepts it. The Sens had a similar situation this off-season. Brannstrom, a RFA D, was due for a $2.1M qualifying offer. Ottawa didn't qualify him as there weren't prepared to pay him that much. It was the previous GM who gave him the $2M contract the year before. Decent player but not worth that much: too small to defend properly, not talented enough to produce offensively. So he walked as an UFA and signed with the Avs for a little more than league minimum. In this case at least, the player was worth less on the market than he thought. No comparison to Swayman, just pointing out the obvious.

 

[LiseL]

My thinking was that if the arbitration numbers were less, then Swayman would have accepted the deal they were offering

But now that I think more about it... that makes sense to do as a GM. So now I'm thinking you are right and it's likely that the arbitration numbers were lower, makes more strategic sense. Either Swayman takes your offer and the case isn't heard... or you get halfway between your low arbitration number and Sway's high arbitration number.

You are right

An earlier poster, many threads ago posted that the Bruins offer before arbitration was in the mid $3M range, Swayman's # was in the $4M range. At arbitration, the Bruins offer now started with a $2, not sure if Swayman's offer started with a 4 or 5. The Bruins original offer was basically most of the cap room they had left so it's evident they wanted the amount to be in the $3s. This wasn't their 1st rodeo so they knew what had to be done to arrive at that #. Lower the offer, present comparables of average goaltenders, then list some of his shortcomings.

I'm not sure if that earlier post was an article or the poster typed it in himself. Too long ago, I don't remember lol.

What I find so astonishing is that Swayman doesn't seem to recognize this was a negotiating tactic, nothing more. They really wanted that final # to start with a 3 to not go over the cap, so they did what they had to do. They certainly showed him how they really feel by trading Ullmark, making him the starter and offering him a fair long-term deal. So why is he still so upset about it?

 

[Saxon Eric]

I made it home safely, goodnight!

 

[LiseL]

Swayman got 3.4m in arbitration. His number was likely in the 4s. The B's was likely in the 2s... which is what Peake makes. So the Bruins thought (for 1year) that Swayman was worth about the same.

That's why one of their comps was Dan Vladar who makes..... in the 2s. That's what it has to do with it.

And everyone knows that arbitrators tend to split the difference, which they did. Just because the Bruins presented the offer/comparables in the 2's doesn't mean that's what they thought of him, it's how arbitration works. If the team was prepared to give Swayman what he wanted, they would have negotiated a contract before the hearing. Obviously, they didn't want to go over their cap limit and deal with cuts or changes to the roster so they provided lower comps and a list of shortcomings on why he wasn't worth more. If the Bruins truly thought that of him, they wouldn't have traded Ullmark, make him the starter and offer him a good long-term deal. It's hard to believe he hasn't figured out that what happened last year was simply negotiating tactics, it wasn't personal. Don't the players keep saying, it's just business when a player gets traded, a coach is changed, etc. Well, this is part of the business too.

 

[nORRis8]

He’s being a bit of a baby yes. Great goalie. But bit of a baby right now.

But let's say this: The Bruins went all the way last year, they win the Cup and Swayman gets the Conn Smythe.
How much would he be asking for then? He's likely asking for 9+ right now, so...

12 million?
13 million?
14 million?
How about 15 million?

 

[Gordoff]

I don’t think we play Zurich next year do we?

Nor Siberia, but he'll be closer to home!

 

[KillerMillerTime]

M

And most other teams have won with goalies who made less, some a lot less. From what I've read, most people are saying he's not worth $9.5-$10M yet with his limited resume, not that you can't win with a $10M goalie.

My response was to one specific poster. Clearly more goalies have won cups since the hard cap sub, 9 million. Counting Vasi, are goalies making $9M or more batting 1.0, ha!!!. Look in another post I said I would go as high as $8.5M but preferably $8M.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

If you think their offer of mid $3M for one year was not fair, then OK, I get your point. But what changes should management have done last summer to make the room? Weren't they up to the cap?

Also, could anyone predict that Swayman would still be smarting from arbitration one year later? Isn't it ironic that he's the one who filed for arbitration, not management. Isn't it common knowledge that management tries to pay the least while the player tries to get the most and the outcome is usually somewhere in the middle? He stated he didn't like the comparables they used or some of the comments they made. What did he expect them to say: he's the best, we want him here long-term, he's our future. What are the odds the result wouldn't have gone totally in his favor if they didn't downplay his performance? Shouldn't his agent have prepared him beforehand? It's not like arbitration is something new.

Doesn't the fact they traded Ullmark and are offering him the $64M contract to keep him here long-term tell them how they really feel?

If he's still smarting from the arbitration one year ago, what's the likelihood he'll ever get over this contract negotiation?

Honestly, I don't know what the B's were offering Swayman before arb, but I tend to think it was sub 3. This isn't buying a house or car from some 3rd party you don't
know, this is a core pillar of your team. Then they low all him again with the 6.5M.
I would be thinking these Gus want to basically pilfer $8M from me (Difference between 6.5M and 7.5M, the real starting point).

I don't remember exactly how much cap they had, but couldn't Jacobs have the option of letting Sweeney sign Bergeron for a one year deal for $1.5M and LTIR him for cap space at the beginning of the season or is the something in the CBA not allowing you to LTIR someone with carryover performance bonus money being
LTIR following year? If an athlete deserved a retirement "gift" with cap benefits for the team, it was Bergeron. We all know what TB did with Kucherov.

 

[SwayHeyKid]

I think the most ironic part of this whole thing is the Swayman is being a bitch crew are the same ones most butthurt by Gross doing agent things to get his client his best deal.

It’s disheartening so many people are taking it out on Sway, I hope when he’s here and winning games he has your full support.

 

[KrejciMVP]

Sway should of never did these negotiations publicly. Those arbitration comments have gone viral and he's be mocked everywhere in hockey now. Why do that to yourself. He went too far

 

[Ned Bouhalassa]

Looks like he’s still smarting from last year’s arbitration. Not the right attitude, this young man either doesn’t get good advice or, worse yet, doesn’t listen to his better angels. Time to make a break for the good of team chemistry.

 

[DKH]

Hopefully todays the day it’s over

 

[Eddie Munson]

I think the most ironic part of this whole thing is the Swayman is being a bitch crew are the same ones most butthurt by Gross doing agent things to get his client his best deal.

It’s disheartening so many people are taking it out on Sway, I hope when he’s here and winning games he has your full support.

100%

If I’m Swayman, I dump Gross yesterday for destroying my brand. That one poll shows how quickly one half of the lovable hug duo went from “team first guy who always supports someone he’s in direct competition with” to “money hungry, whiny, little bitch.”

Swayman may have said those things about arbitration and no one would care. But when used as a backdrop for why he’s not currently signed. Not a good look. Makes me think Gross doesn’t understand Bostonians if he thinks playing the victim card will help Swayman.

Again, I place 100% of this on Gross. I think he dropped the report to Friedman that they were miles apart so the B’s had to worry about an offer sheet. Boston then dropped the 10m figure to try and keep the circling sharks at bay. Gross then drops the B’s initial offer and states Sweeney never returns his calls and suddenly, the gloves come off. Just a real shitty way of doing business.

 

[KrejciMVP]

Apparently f&m say he's going to be on a Netflix series about his slights and sings songs about it?

 

[KillerMillerTime]

Not sure if there is any point to asking this since it seems the battle lines in here are hard and fast, but in seeing the Vasi comps being made in the thread, left me with a simple question: if the Bruins went into the playoffs tomorrow, who would you rather have in your net, Vasi or Swayman?

Swayman because Vasi's injury has reduced his peak to where Swayman, especially at $8-8.25 is a better ROI.

 

[Dizzay]

Sway should of never did these negotiations publicly. Those arbitration comments have gone viral and he's be mocked everywhere in hockey now. Why do that to yourself. He went too far

This........100%

I'm a Bruins fan living in Canada but I'm a Blue Jays baseball fan. It's extremely rare that I hate a player on any of my favorite teams. Some, I'm not a huge fan of but rarely do I hope a player gets traded or hope they fail. Swayman has entered "Bo Bichette" territory for me. Both, larger than the team, seem very selfish, and I have zero time for that. I actively cheer against Bo when he's playing, I hate him that much. Swayman, I dont want to cheer against the Bruins because I'm a bigger Bruins fan than Blue Jays, but I'd rather see him sit or get traded at this point. I only say sit because I'd like the little prick to learn a valuable lesson but as a huge Bruins fan, I'd rather get some sort of return to make our club better.

Unpopular, because I know he's an excellent goalie, but GTFO big guy. Go read your liost of hurtful things that the Bruins said about you in California somewhere where you miss the playoffs consistently and you can use the offseason to sharpen your business skills.

 

[Donnie Shulzhoffer]

I think the most ironic part of this whole thing is the Swayman is being a bitch crew are the same ones most butthurt by Gross doing agent things to get his client his best deal.

It’s disheartening so many people are taking it out on Sway, I hope when he’s here and winning games he has your full support.

Those are two different things. Gross is gross, but he is an agent and it is expected. I do not expect a professional athlete whining to the public about a team disagreeing how much he should get paid.

Swayman is playing the victim to get public sympathy and it worked on a few people like yourself.

 

[Gee Wally]

 

[Kate08]

The worst thing Sway did was going on that stupid podcast.