Jeremy Roenick, Shea Weber and Pavel Datsyuk inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame

[Voight]

F

FWIW, there is no centre designation for the HHOF. It's a player category. To argue that Sundin was deserving of a first-ballot selection, you have to argue that he was the best player eligible.

And then you have to ignore the revelations of game fixing in the 2006 Olympics.

In 2012? Yes, he was one of the best players available.

Revelations or conspiracy theory?

 

[Hockey Outsider]

To add to my post from yesterday, here's a list of every defensemen in NHL history who placed top five in Norris trophy voting 5+ times:

1. Ray Bourque - 19x
2. Nicklas Lidstrom - 13x
3. Bobby Orr - 9x
4. Doug Harvey - 9x
5. Paul Coffey - 9x
6. Tim Horton - 8x
7. Pierre Pilote - 8x
8. Zdeno Chara - 8x
9. Denis Potvin - 7x
10. Larry Robinson- 7x
11. Chris Chelios - 7x
12. Brad Park - 7x
13. Chris Pronger - 7x
14. Bill Gadsby - 7x
15. Scott Stevens - 6x
16. Al MacInnis - 6x
17. Victor Hedman - 6x
18. Borje Salming - 6x
19. Jacques Laperriere - 6x
20. Brian Leetch - 5x
21. Erik Karlsson - 5x
22. Shea Weber - 5x
23. Rob Blake - 5x
24. Rod Langway - 5x
25. Fern Flaman - 5x

Every defensemen in history who's been named top five at his position, five times or more, is in the Hall (or definitely will be, in the case of Karlsson and Hedman).

There are also plenty of Hall of Fame defensemen who haven't done this. I'm not talking about weaker picks (Kevin Lowe, Phil Housley, Leo Bovin, Sergei Zubov, Doug Wilson) - I'm talking about strong HOF choices (Serge Savard, Scott Niedermayer, Mark Howe, future HOF'er Duncan Keith). The pushback on Weber throughout this thread has been unexpected.

 

[ClydeLee]

Weber was one of the best d in the league but he was never the best, Norris aside. No one ever said that guy is the best in the entire league. He was a great player, I am not denying that, but the issue here is the Hall of Fame is turning into the Fame of great players, not the Fame of the elite of the elite. It isn't an issue with just this year's selections, this has been happening for awhile.

Yes there were some saying Weber was the best. I know because I disagreed with it. But I am baised and would always say Keith is the best, but after Lidstrom retired. Who is it, Keith, Chara, or Weber was a debate where each had valid argument. Doughty entered that talk a bit later.

 

[bleedblue94]

To add to my post from yesterday, here's a list of every defensemen in NHL history who placed top five in Norris trophy voting 5+ times:

1. Ray Bourque - 19x
2. Nicklas Lidstrom - 13x
3. Bobby Orr - 9x
4. Doug Harvey - 9x
5. Paul Coffey - 9x
6. Tim Horton - 8x
7. Pierre Pilote - 8x
8. Zdeno Chara - 8x
9. Denis Potvin - 7x
10. Larry Robinson- 7x
11. Chris Chelios - 7x
12. Brad Park - 7x
13. Chris Pronger - 7x
14. Bill Gadsby - 7x
15. Scott Stevens - 6x
16. Al MacInnis - 6x
17. Victor Hedman - 6x
18. Borje Salming - 6x
19. Jacques Laperriere - 6x
20. Brian Leetch - 5x
21. Erik Karlsson - 5x
22. Shea Weber - 5x
23. Rob Blake - 5x
24. Rod Langway - 5x
25. Fern Flaman - 5x

Every defensemen in history who's been named top five at his position, five times or more, is in the Hall (or definitely will be, in the case of Karlsson and Hedman).

There are also plenty of Hall of Fame defensemen who haven't done this. I'm not talking about weaker picks (Kevin Lowe, Phil Housley, Leo Bovin, Sergei Zubov, Doug Wilson) - I'm talking about strong HOF choices (Serge Savard, Scott Niedermayer, Mark Howe, future HOF'er Duncan Keith). The pushback on Weber throughout this thread has been unexpected.

Genuinely curious, how many of those 25 have a significant personal award or won a cup in their career?

 

[bleedblue94]

Yes there were some saying Weber was the best. I know because I disagreed with it. But I am baised and would always say Keith is the best, but after Lidstrom retired. Who is it, Keith, Chara, or Weber was a debate where each had valid argument. Doughty entered that talk a bit later.

There was one year maybe, the year he finished runner up to lidstrom.

I just dont know that Weber is in the class of players that I think of as hall of famers.

Just my feelings, other can feel differently but I think the Hall is getting watered down.

 

[abo9]

Haven’t thought about that, but you seriously think Weber should be a first-balot HHOF? If there were no better options, then don’t include anyone.

I think he's hhof worthy. If I think back at the 2005-2016 period and you ask me for a defenseman to build a team around, it'd be Weber. He was an absolute monster out there, but he played for Nashville.

First ballot or not doesn't matter really.

In terms of good options or not, the way the HHOF inductions work currently means that on average, the best 4 players from each draft class gets inducted. There's gonna be crazy strong classes when guys like Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin start retiring, and some well-deserving players might have to wait a year or two.

 

[Hunter368]

I liked JR as a player, he often was whiny off the ice I found, but good player so I'm happy for him.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Genuinely curious, how many of those 25 have a significant personal award or won a cup in their career?

That's a fair question. Three of them (in addition to Weber) have no Stanley Cups and no personal awards - Brad Park, Borje Salming, and Bill Gadsby. (Park won the Masterson, but I don't think that's a major award). Two more won one or more Stanley Cups, but have no personal awards (Tim Horton and Fern Flaman).

I would agree that Weber is one of the weakest players on the list. But I still think he meets the historical pattern for HOF defensemen.

 

[NotCommitted]

If you think first ballot for Weber is weird, wait till you see him lace them up in October to play out his contract for the Arizona Coyotes

Seriously though, I have zero problem with him getting in the hall, I don't really care either way. The only thing is I'm not sure his career yells "first ballot", in fact I think it probably doesn't and it would've been a good year to let someone in who deserves a spot but somehow never seems to make it.

 

[Johnny Tomala]

I wouldn't have Weber as first ballot but I would have him in the HHOF. I wouldn't have Roenick in HHOF. Datsyuk was obvious first ballot choice.

 

[Soundgarden]

Weber was one of the best d in the league but he was never the best, Norris aside. No one ever said that guy is the best in the entire league. He was a great player, I am not denying that, but the issue here is the Hall of Fame is turning into the Fame of great players, not the Fame of the elite of the elite. It isn't an issue with just this year's selections, this has been happening for awhile.

I would definitely argue against that. There are legitimate cases for him to be argued for best defenseman in the league in a few different years.

There was one year maybe, the year he finished runner up to lidstrom.

I just dont know that Weber is in the class of players that I think of as hall of famers.

Just my feelings, other can feel differently but I think the Hall is getting watered down.

'13 when Keith won his 2nd Norris as well.

Sounds like we can agree to disagree. I think his inclusion (along with others already in there) really cheapens the meaning of Hall of Fame.

I don't think you can tell the story of the NHL in the 10's without Weber. The only difference between him and a Keith or Doughty is quality of the team around him.

Hardly cheapens the HHOF, especially compared to an Andercyuk or Lowe, etc.

 

[CanadienShark]

I would definitely argue against that. There are legitimate cases for him to be argued for best defenseman in the league in a few different years.

'13 when Keith won his 2nd Norris as well.


I don't think you can tell the story of the NHL in the 10's without Weber. The only difference between him and a Keith or Doughty is quality of the team around him.

Hardly cheapens the HHOF, especially compared to an Andercyuk or Lowe, etc.

I still think he's a poster child for "Hall of Very Good."

Just my opinion of course. I respect yours for sure.

 

[ClydeLee]

I still think he's a poster child for "Hall of Very Good."

Just my opinion of course. I respect yours for sure.

Do you think Subban will be deserving of going in the HHOF?

 

[CanadienShark]

Do you think Subban will be deserving of going in the HHOF?

I don't think he will. The Norris means something and he was a special player that stepped up in the playoffs, but fits that "Hall of Very Good" theme as well. He fell off too quickly to make a legit case. If he does, it's more for personality and showmanship than his on ice play.

I'm assuming you already know this, but Subban was one of my all-time favourite players.

 

[tarheelhockey]

He's closer to two norrises than several Norris winners and HHOFers.

This is a great way to frame where Weber fits in.

I get people have a what have you done for me lately mentality but holy crap, this guys prime wasn't that long ago.

He wasn't some star defensemen in the 70s that 85% of this site didn't see play.

Bad news about the average birthdate on the internet right now. A lot of adult HF’ers actually don’t meaningfully remember Weber’s prime.

No one ever said that guy is the best in the entire league.

But a lot of people really did. Most notably, at least 49 members of the PWHA went on record with it.

That's a fair question. Three of them (in addition to Weber) have no Stanley Cups and no personal awards - Brad Park, Borje Salming, and Bill Gadsby.

Salming feels like a strong historic comparable. Big feared guy who never quite got the laurels as a multi-Norris winner, but he was so close that you have to wonder if team results were the reason he fell short.

Difference being Salming is venerated for his role as a trailblazer and a Toronto hero. Drop him into 2000s Nashville and you more or less have Shea Weber.

 

[BB79]

Alex Mogilny should be in the Hall. Insane he gets passed over.

True. Roenick scored 500 goals, was the 3rd American player to do so. Never won a cup.

Mogilny won 1 cup with NJ, averaged over a point per game through nearly 1,000 games, tied Selanne with 76 goals, and probably most importantly has the historical bit of being a pioneer, defecting to the NHL which paved the way for other great players like Federov and Bure to come over.

 

[Zalos]

Continues the theme of changing into the hall of above average.


This is silly.

Doughty won a Norris and won cups

Keith won the Norris twice and won cups

Comparing weber's career to either is hollow.

You're silly.

Both of those guys played on stacked teams. Weber did not. If I was to pick a D for my team and all three of these guys were at their peak, I'd pick Weber in a heartbeat. Incredibly strong D with amazing leadership, a bomb at the point, etc.

Yes there were some saying Weber was the best. I know because I disagreed with it. But I am baised and would always say Keith is the best, but after Lidstrom retired. Who is it, Keith, Chara, or Weber was a debate where each had valid argument. Doughty entered that talk a bit later.

Keith who? The guy won Cups on a stacked Chicago team. Chara and Weber ahead of him easily.

 

[ClydeLee]

You're silly.

Both of those guys played on stacked teams. Weber did not. If I was to pick a D for my team and all three of these guys were at their peak, I'd pick Weber in a heartbeat. Incredibly strong D with amazing leadership, a bomb at the point, etc.


Keith who? The guy won Cups on a stacked Chicago team. Chara and Weber ahead of him easily.

Well Keith will get in next year right alongside Chara. Joe Thornton is also eligible. Those made about Moginly might as well repeat their outrage because those are 3 1st year in Locks.

Also eligible will be Carey Price and Getzlaf. I'll say i think both of those are borderline to know if they'll go in for sure, maybe you'll disagree there. But it seems like it could be an all 1st year class.

 

[bleedblue94]

You're silly.

Both of those guys played on stacked teams. Weber did not. If I was to pick a D for my team and all three of these guys were at their peak, I'd pick Weber in a heartbeat. Incredibly strong D with amazing leadership, a bomb at the point, etc.


Keith who? The guy won Cups on a stacked Chicago team. Chara and Weber ahead of him easily.

I'm silly bc you disagree with me?

 

[Mohar Ikram]

I think he's hhof worthy. If I think back at the 2005-2016 period and you ask me for a defenseman to build a team around, it'd be Weber. He was an absolute monster out there, but he played for Nashville.

First ballot or not doesn't matter really.

In terms of good options or not, the way the HHOF inductions work currently means that on average, the best 4 players from each draft class gets inducted. There's gonna be crazy strong classes when guys like Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin start retiring, and some well-deserving players might have to wait a year or two.

Actually no. First ballot means that when you're only not been inducted yet just because of waiting period.

It means: "if there is no waiting period, you will get into the hall tomorrow". Which mean only the top elites or someone who did their deeds on other-worldly level will get it (like Datsyuk).

Look, Weber is a good HOF IMO considering how good he is for Preds/Habs and CANADA (don't forget that sturdy 2014 defence maestro performance was consist of him and Price). But first ballot is too much. The best should be a second ballot.

 

[ClydeLee]

Actually no. First ballot means that when you're only not been inducted yet just because of waiting period.

To who?

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Shea Weber over Mogilny is a choice.

An easy choice. Weber was a better d-man than Mogilny a forward.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Mogilny is not a snub. The only way he gets in is if you’re playing the “can I think of anyone better than this terrible inductee” game. In reality he had 2 HHOF-relevant seasons and was otherwise not a genuine star in the league.

As soon as they give in on Mogilny, it’ll be on to the next weak candidate who is suddenly an outrageous snub even though we’re not talking about him at all yet.

There are some players that come to mind more deserving of the HOF than Mogilny who have been shafted for a similar amount of time or longer - Cujo and JC Tremblay for starters.

I don't understand why there are so many posts questioning Webber's induction? He was a dominant defensemen in the league for over a decade. I recall in a few of those TSN polls from 15 or so years ago ranking the top-50 players in the league (half of the voters were GMs I think), Webber finished top-10 multiple times and top-20 a few more times.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

He lacks Mogilny's peak play and all-star nods but for consistency, maybe! He was kind of a passenger for his Cup win much like Mogilny was in Jersey, so I feel like that's more a luck of the draw accolade. Either way, Theo's definitely more deserving than Roenick, Leo Boivin, Lowe, or Clark Gilles.

Fleury finished 5th in Hart Trophy voting twice. Mogilny never got close to that level. Peak Fleury > Mogilny.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Weber was one of the best d in the league but he was never the best, Norris aside. No one ever said that guy is the best in the entire league. He was a great player, I am not denying that, but the issue here is the Hall of Fame is turning into the Fame of great players, not the Fame of the elite of the elite. It isn't an issue with just this year's selections, this has been happening for awhile.

Except Webber was elite. He was a top-5 d-man in the NHL for a decade or longer. 30 teams * 7 d-men per team = 210 d-men total. This means Weber was in the top 2% of d-men. That's elite.