Player Discussion Jeff Gorton

[Amazing Kreiderman]

24 years is a long time for things to change

I don't see any Colorado fans quitting their team because Varlamov is in net. I don't see people boycotting the league for honoring Bobby Hull. That happened 18 months ago.

Why are things different for Voynov?

 

[Miamipuck]

We won the cup with a player who killed a woman, but when we sign Voynov, people are walking away from the team? Hahahahah

You're a great poster here.

No one is walking away. But you're comparing different era's. In today's day an age Mactavish would be rightfully crucified.

My Dad was a cop back in the 70's to early 90's and what was the norm then ain't the norm now. He has told me stories. Heck, I know stories of players that have done much worse than what Mactavish did and got away scot-free, I mean much worse.

I don't want a player that not only beat his wife he beat her to a bloody pulp. There's really no distinction other than the fact, he can't claim a hand slip or mistake. It was a completely willful action and there was no catching oneself and realizing "what the f*** am I doing?" he kept going.

btw, even if he caught himself he would still be a p.o.s. I was just saying for conversation purposes.

 

[Levitate]

probably unlikely that lots of people will actually boycott but people watch sports and are fans for different reasons sometimes and if employing a known abuser is distasteful and makes it not fun to watch and cheer for the team, who are you to criticize? We watch sports for fun and distraction and to get away from things for a bit, all kinds of reasons. If something about the team intrudes on that and make sit not fun, then it's worth not watching. Feeling like you have to cheer for the success of someone you feel is not a good person may not be something some people can ignore.

I'm sure there are plenty of athletes, even players on the Rangers, who have done things or hold beliefs that some people may adamantly disapprove of, but until we know about those things you can just watch and enjoy the game. If you know about it, it can be different.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Mactavish killed a woman?

 

[Miamipuck]

I know people that boycotted the Jets because of Michael Vick, I was friends with a few of them.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

You're a great poster here.

No one is walking away. But you're comparing different era's. In today's day an age Mactavish would be rightfully crucified.

My Dad was a cop back in the 70's to early 90's and what was the norm then ain't the norm now. He has told me stories. Heck, I know stories of players that have done much worse than what Mactavish did and got away scot-free, I mean much worse.

I don't want a player that not only beat his wife he beat her to a bloody pulp. There's really no distinction other than the fact, he can't claim a hand slip or mistake. It was a completely willful action and there was no catching oneself and realizing "what the **** am I doing?" he kept going.

btw, even if he caught himself he would still be a p.o.s. I was just saying for conversation purposes.

I get all that, but MacTavish is still part of the league today. There are so many assault cases. Patrick Kane assaulted a cab driver. Claude Giroux assaulted a cop. And despite it happening decades ago, Bobby Hull was still honored by the league during the Centennial ceremony. Why isn't that an issue today? Because it happened decades ago? What Voynov did happened years ago. It's not as if it happened last month.

That's the problem I have with this criticism of Voynov. Yes, what he did was bad, but if he isn't allowed back in the league, why are we looking the other way in these other cases? Is assaulting a cab driver or cop different from assaulting your partner? If Bobby Hull can be honored after what he did to several partners, how long do we have to "punish" Voynov before allowing him back? And what about Dany Heatley? That wasn't decades ago. There's a double standard here.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

probably unlikely that lots of people will actually boycott but people watch sports and are fans for different reasons sometimes and if employing a known abuser is distasteful and makes it not fun to watch and cheer for the team, who are you to criticize? We watch sports for fun and distraction and to get away from things for a bit, all kinds of reasons. If something about the team intrudes on that and make sit not fun, then it's worth not watching. Feeling like you have to cheer for the success of someone you feel is not a good person may not be something some people can ignore.

I'm sure there are plenty of athletes, even players on the Rangers, who have done things or hold beliefs that some people may adamantly disapprove of, but until we know about those things you can just watch and enjoy the game. If you know about it, it can be different.

Well said.

While I try to exclude his non-hockey... ah, shall we say, "attributes"... from my analysis of ADA the player, I'd be lying if I said his presence in the top 6 doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the game.

Of course, his presence in the top 6 from a pure hockey perspective detracts from my enjoyment of the game also, so fortunately it all lines up.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Mactavish killed a woman?

Vehicular manslaughter in the mid-80s. A year later he was back in the league.

 

[Miamipuck]

Mactavish killed a woman?

Yes, vehicular homicide, he plead guilty, he spent a year in jail. 1984.

 

[Levitate]

I get all that, but MacTavish is still part of the league today. There are so many assault cases. Patrick Kane assaulted a cab driver. Claude Giroux assaulted a cop. And despite it happening decades ago, Bobby Hull was still honored by the league during the Centennial ceremony. Why isn't that an issue today? Because it happened decades ago? What Voynov did happened years ago. It's not as if it happened last month.

That's the problem I have with this criticism of Voynov. Yes, what he did was bad, but if he isn't allowed back in the league, why are we looking the other way in these other cases? Is assaulting a cab driver or cop different from assaulting your partner? If Bobby Hull can be honored after what he did to several partners, how long do we have to "punish" Voynov before allowing him back? And what about Dany Heatley? That wasn't decades ago. There's a double standard here.

Again, who are you to criticize people who may not want to watch Voynov on this team? Who are you to tell them what they should find acceptable or not? This isn't a matter of the law, it's about people and their preferences.

e: Me personally, if there were some information about how Voynov (or a player who did something similar) did some "rehab" and was working with anti violence groups or showed some form of "what I did in the past was wrong and I'm trying to change and be a better person going forward" I'm happy to give them a second chance. I think people do bad things sometimes and can become better people and live better lives after that and if they are willing to show that then they shouldn't just be blackballed. Regarding Voynov I don't think I've heard anything other than people trying to excuse it at the time but who knows, not like we get information out of Russia about that sort of thing.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Again, who are you to criticize people who may not want to watch Voynov on this team? Who are you to tell them what they should find acceptable or not? This isn't a matter of the law, it's about people and their preferences.

I am not criticizing people for their opinion. I am just trying to understand why people are so against Voynov coming back to the NHL, yet (seemingly) don't bat an eye when other players do something similar.

 

[Miamipuck]

I get all that, but MacTavish is still part of the league today. There are so many assault cases. Patrick Kane assaulted a cab driver. Claude Giroux assaulted a cop. And despite it happening decades ago, Bobby Hull was still honored by the league during the Centennial ceremony. Why isn't that an issue today? Because it happened decades ago? What Voynov did happened years ago. It's not as if it happened last month.

That's the problem I have with this criticism of Voynov. Yes, what he did was bad, but if he isn't allowed back in the league, why are we looking the other way in these other cases? Is assaulting a cab driver or cop different from assaulting your partner? If Bobby Hull can be honored after what he did to several partners, how long do we have to "punish" Voynov before allowing him back? And what about Dany Heatley? That wasn't decades ago. There's a double standard here.

I don't necessarily think there's a double standard. I think thoughts evolve. I don't condone any of that stuff and never have. People have different views on life. There are lots of players in the 60's-70's-80's and 90's that beat women. Many HOF'ers even a prominent Islander, it's all part of an evolving process. Mactavish is around because he served his time a long time ago, it's not like a mysterious revelation. It's been known since it happened.

Going forward domestic violence is going to get guys kicked out of league's. I think rightfully so. This stuff is evolving quickly, it was just 2014 where Ray Rice brought domestic violence to the forefront. Heck all the abuse in Hollywood just came out last year and that's been going on since Muybridge made the first projector.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Again, who are you to criticize people who may not want to watch Voynov on this team? Who are you to tell them what they should find acceptable or not? This isn't a matter of the law, it's about people and their preferences.

In that vein, who are people to criticize those who don't really care if a person like Voynov is on the team? If someone's preference is that they understand what Voynov did was awful, but they just want the team to be the best it can be, and are not really concerned with what happens off the ice, why should they be criticized for it? Your sentiment can apply to a number of ways of thinking on this subject. And the idea someone can't criticize, or at the very least question why people believe a certain way is just foolish IMO.

 

[Trxjw]

We won the cup with a player who killed a woman, but when we sign Voynov, people are walking away from the team? Hahahahah

Yes. Strangely enough I have different principles at 34 than I did when I was 11.

 

[haveandare]

I am not criticizing people for their opinion. I am just trying to understand why people are so against Voynov coming back to the NHL, yet (seemingly) don't bat an eye when other players do something similar.

I could be wrong, but if I remember correctly, the Giroux thing was him touching a male officer's butt in a bar. Definitely not okay but not on the same level as beating your wife. Kane attacked a cab driver and many eyes were definitely batted about it. It was a pretty big deal.

For things that happened literally decades ago, chances are pretty good many/most people on here weren't following hockey and/or approving of that sort of behavior at the time.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Also, I would draw a deep distinction between a guy who'd had too much to drink stupidly getting behind the wheel of a car, killing someone in an accident, and then doing his time... with a guy who who beat his wife bloody.

The former, if he's been up-front about the fact that he made a terrible mistake, and is deeply regretful over it, I have absolutely no problem giving a second chance. He paid his legally-required debt for the awful event, and beyond that, no doubt pays for it further every night.

The latter? Yeah, f*** that guy.

 

[kovazub94]

Also, I would draw a deep distinction between a guy who'd had too much to drink stupidly getting behind the wheel of a car, killing someone in an accident, and then doing his time... with a guy who who beat his wife bloody.

The former, if he's been up-front about the fact that he made a terrible mistake, and is deeply regretful over it, I have absolutely no problem giving a second chance. He paid his legally-required debt for the awful event, and beyond that, no doubt pays for it further every night.

The latter? Yeah, **** that guy.

What if the other guy also addressed his violence and anger issues through rehab, seeing specialists, etc, and now is exemplary family man with no new incidents?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Also, I would draw a deep distinction between a guy who'd had too much to drink stupidly getting behind the wheel of a car, killing someone in an accident, and then doing his time... with a guy who who beat his wife bloody.

The former, if he's been up-front about the fact that he made a terrible mistake, and is deeply regretful over it, I have absolutely no problem giving a second chance. He paid his legally-required debt for the awful event, and beyond that, no doubt pays for it further every night.

The latter? Yeah, **** that guy.

Really? You want to give Person A a 2nd chance because he regrets what he did. Who says Voynov doesn't regret what he did? He went to jail for what he did, his wife decided to forgive him. They went back to Russia after the what happened and 4 years later they are still together. No new issues. Sounds like they recovered from all that happened. His wife gave him a 2nd chance, but we shouldn't?

 

[nyr2k2]

I'd prefer not being associated with Voynov.

If his wife has forgiven him, if he's worked out his issues, that's great. I hope he and his wife can live a happy life and he can contribute something positive to society.

Still, I don't want him. It's just my opinion. He can find his second chance elsewhere.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

What if the other guy also addressed his violence and anger issues through rehab, seeing specialists, etc, and now is exemplary family man with no new incidents?

Whoof. That's really, really hard. You'd have to do a ton of background work on him, and be 100% positive he's a changed man. Even then, I'd be super wary. This is a dude who had something very, very wrong with him in a very, very bad way. What he did was straight up evil.

 

[Miamipuck]

Really? You want to give Person A a 2nd chance because he regrets what he did. Who says Voynov doesn't regret what he did? He went to jail for what he did, his wife decided to forgive him. They went back to Russia after the what happened and 4 years later they are still together. No new issues. Sounds like they recovered from all that happened. His wife gave him a 2nd chance, but we shouldn't?

AK, the fact an abused woman is with her abuser still, doesn't mean there's no abuse. In fact it usually means the opposite. Please read up about it. I have seen it first hand and it defies logic but it takes a long long time for the abused to disavow or disassociate herself from her abuser, if it doesn't take care of itself naturally via other means.

 

[McRanger]

Also, I would draw a deep distinction between a guy who'd had too much to drink stupidly getting behind the wheel of a car, killing someone in an accident, and then doing his time... with a guy who who beat his wife bloody.

The former, if he's been up-front about the fact that he made a terrible mistake, and is deeply regretful over it, I have absolutely no problem giving a second chance. He paid his legally-required debt for the awful event, and beyond that, no doubt pays for it further every night.

The latter? Yeah, **** that guy.

Is the deep distinction that in the two cases only one of the victims survived?

Despite my standard opinion that keeping people from gainful employment is not the way to punish them, yeah my general attitude towards Voynov is pretty much also "**** that guy".

That said comparing these two incidents is definitely kind of... weird.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Really? You want to give Person A a 2nd chance because he regrets what he did. Who says Voynov doesn't regret what he did? He went to jail for what he did, his wife decided to forgive him. They went back to Russia after the what happened and 4 years later they are still together. No new issues. Sounds like they recovered from all that happened. His wife gave him a 2nd chance, but we shouldn't?

If you don't see the difference between a tragic act of stupidity and a conscious decision to beat your partner to a pulp, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Is the deep distinction that in the two cases only one of the victims survived?

Are you trying to say the MacTavish incident is worse? Because otherwise I'm not sure why you'd bring this up.

To clarify, as I said above, the distinction is that one was a terrible lapse of judgment that led to a horrific accident; the other was a willful act of extreme violence against a much weaker person, who had placed her full faith and trust in him.

Despite my standard opinion that keeping people from gainful employment is not the way to punish them, yeah my general attitude towards Voynov is pretty much also "**** that guy".

That said comparing these two incidents is definitely kind of... weird.

Here we agree. The fact that the Rangers once employed MacTavish should have no bearing on their view of Voynov.

 

[Miamipuck]

Are you trying to say the MacTavish incident is worse? Because Otherwise I'm not sure why you'd bring this up.

To clarify, as I said above, the distinction is that one was a terrible lapse of judgment that led to a horrific accident; the other was a willful act of extreme violence against a much weaker person, who had placed her full faith and trust in him.
Here we agree. The fact that the Rangers once employed MacTavish should have no bearing on their view of Voynov.

I will say that yeah that particular incident was a lapse in judgement, we all know that probably wasn't the first time Mactavish got behind the wheel drunk off his ass. It was a different era to be sure but he most likely did it before on numerous occasions. When you constantly play chicken, you're eventually going to get hit by a car.

He did plead guilty and served his time. I will give him that.