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Player Discussion Jeff Gorton

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ColonialsHockey10 said:
Ah, so what's the criteria for the hindsight game again? Does Cam Talbot finishing 4th in Vezina voting last season not count anymore?

What about Hagelins 16 points in 24 games en route to a Stanley cup?

"Cap dump" is suck a blanket statement of defense. Does it handcuff our GM to an extent? Sure, compared with a free market and a plethora of cap flexibility it does. Does it guarantee him the **** return he got for two premium assets (yes, Hagelin and Talbot were two premium assets when they were traded)? Absolutely not. Especially when the Devils turned around and offered less and got a 30 goal scorer in return from the same team.

And then on the other end of spectrum I'm reading about "one of the best off seasons in Rangers history", after our GM landed a guy who literally would play for NYR for free and his team came out to one of the worst starts in franchise history.

But no, there's no middle ground between the **** return he got and "9th overall and Thornton". Jeff Gortons tenure here is clearly binary.

Love how harmless posts garner sarcasm on here because they are negative. As far as I'm concerned, until this team has won a Stanley Cup they're susceptible to criticism. Their GM isn't exempt.
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Goalies and 3rd liners aren’t premium assets. We got Raanta for nothing. A pending free-agent back-up goalie in his late twenties is not a premium asset, or anything close to one.

This board overrates the absolute shit out of Carl Hagelin. He's a fast 3rd liner. Anaheim proceeded to deal him almost immediately for, what, David Perron or something?
 
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Maybe speed is overrated @aufheben, but yeah I saw some days ago that Hagelin really struggle this season for the PIT team, and he was mentioned in a trade topic.
 
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aufheben said:
Goalies and 3rd liners aren’t premium assets. We got Raanta for nothing. A pending free-agent back-up goalie in his late twenties is not a premium asset, or anything close to one.

This board overrates the absolute **** out of Carl Hagelin. He's a fast 3rd liner. Anaheim proceeded to deal him almost immediately for, what, David Perron or something?
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Thanks for bringing up Raanta. People here want to crucify Gorton for not getting premium assets in return for Talbot while nobody thinks it's odd we got Raanta in exchange for Ryan Haggerty, an undrafted NCAA FA who will never play in the NHL.
 
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Well our farm system is still weak so that is another challenge for Gorton and the whole scouting staff too inlucding Gordie Clark.
 
Ori said:
Well our farm system is still weak so that is another challenge for Gorton and the whole scouting staff too inlucding Gordie Clark.
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After trading away first and second rounders 4 years in a row, you cannot expect the farm to be replenished in a single off-season. Gorton will have time to work out his plan. He is on the right track.
 
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Yeah true it`s a good point we went for the cup some years ago for sure, especially when G. Sather was the GM some frisky moves including Callahan, hehe. :)
 
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Amazing Kreiderman said:
After trading away first and second rounders 4 years in a row, you cannot expect the farm to be replenished in a single off-season. Gorton will have time to work out his plan. He is on the right track.
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I don't follow prospects closely, but I was impressed with our sudden depth on the blueline this season. Pionk, DeAngelo, Graves, and Pedrie all had good showings in TC and the preseason (HM: Crawley). And the first two are recent acquisitions. 2 #1 picks this draft. Two promising centers. And then there's the three rookies of last year.

Think from a player development standpoint we're doing well under Gorton.
 
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Amazing Kreiderman said:
Thanks for bringing up Raanta. People here want to crucify Gorton for not getting premium assets in return for Talbot while nobody thinks it's odd we got Raanta in exchange for Ryan Haggerty, an undrafted NCAA FA who will never play in the NHL.
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That was a great trade by Gorton, no arguing there.
 
aufheben said:
Goalies and 3rd liners aren’t premium assets. We got Raanta for nothing. A pending free-agent back-up goalie in his late twenties is not a premium asset, or anything close to one.

This board overrates the absolute **** out of Carl Hagelin. He's a fast 3rd liner. Anaheim proceeded to deal him almost immediately for, what, David Perron or something?
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Regardless of whether or not you believe they were premium assets, there's still a large gap between Talbot and Hagelin's value, and what we got in return. Emerson Etem was a derivative of cannon fodder even before he became a Ranger. His value + 'cap dump' does not equal Hagelin.

To put it simply, are you going to argue these weren't bad trades? Thats what I'm trying to get at. I think they were _terrible. Maybe you don't, but are you happy with them?

For what it's worth, I was by no means a Hagelin supporter; I was very much on the 'headless chicken' bandwagon. But he, like Talbot, proved he was a pretty darn valuable player after he was traded.
 
ColonialsHockey10 said:
Regardless of whether or not you believe they were premium assets, there's still a large gap between Talbot and Hagelin's value, and what we got in return. Emerson Etem was a derivative of cannon fodder even before he became a Ranger. His value + 'cap dump' does not equal Hagelin.

To put it simply, are you going to argue these weren't bad trades? Thats what I'm trying to get at. I think they were _terrible. Maybe you don't, but are you happy with them?
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The question is: Could we have done better?

The answer is: No.
 
ColonialsHockey10 said:
And this is where we disagree.

And no, it doesn't mean I need to brush up on CBA knowledge. :)
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Hagelin's value has nothing to do with the CBA. An 3rd line RFA winger with limited offensive upside, who the team cannot afford to sign to a new deal has little value.

If I cannot afford to pay my rent and have to get sell my car, nobody is going to give me market value for that car.
 
Gorton's done well with the small time pickups.

Turned a 27 year old waiver wire pickup (Puempel) into an expansion draft requirement satisfaction
Turned that wire pickup into a 24 year old d prospect with high upside.

Picked up a 32 year old Cracknell off waivers
Turned Cracknell in 24 year old bottom 6 upside Centerman in Holland

These small moves go very unnoticed but they have a nice domino effect

The bigger stuff takes time. Andersson and Chytil are really good picks. If we sell Nash and recoup another 1st rounder, get two more top tier prospects (plus we'll have a 2nd rounder this year), we might be in very good shape on the farm. Team should be a full on contender by 2019-20​
 
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TheTakedown said:
Gorton's done well with the small time pickups.

Turned a 27 year old waiver wire pickup (Puempel) into an expansion draft requirement satisfaction
Turned that wire pickup into a 24 year old d prospect with high upside.

Picked up a 32 year old Cracknell off waivers
Turned Cracknell in 24 year old bottom 6 upside Centerman in Holland

These small moves go very unnoticed but they have a nice domino effect

The bigger stuff takes time. Andersson and Chytil are really good picks. If we sell Nash and recoup another 1st rounder, get two more top tier prospects (plus we'll have a 2nd rounder this year), we might be in very good shape on the farm. Team should be a full on contender by 2019-20​
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I agree with your assessment. One nit—Holland will be 27 in January.
 
Writing off the Stepan trade this early is akin to writing off the Gomez trade early on because Chris Higgins was mediocre.

I think Gorton had the toughest job in the NHL when he took over - a team straddled with anchor contracts and a bad prospect pool expected to compete every year. How DeAngelo, Chytil, and LA do are going to be pivotal for this organization imo.
 
ColonialsHockey10 said:
And this is where we disagree.

And no, it doesn't mean I need to brush up on CBA knowledge. :)
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Etem was 22 years old and, yes, was struggling to stick in the NHL, but was putting up a PPG in the AHL. They went for a boom or bust type. That happens sometimes. I’m not sure the Rangers could have done better.
 
ColonialsHockey10 said:
Regardless of whether or not you believe they were premium assets, there's still a large gap between Talbot and Hagelin's value, and what we got in return. Emerson Etem was a derivative of cannon fodder even before he became a Ranger. His value + 'cap dump' does not equal Hagelin.

To put it simply, are you going to argue these weren't bad trades? Thats what I'm trying to get at. I think they were _terrible. Maybe you don't, but are you happy with them?

For what it's worth, I was by no means a Hagelin supporter; I was very much on the 'headless chicken' bandwagon. But he, like Talbot, proved he was a pretty darn valuable player after he was traded.
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Yes, when they weren't RFA or pending UFA and on a team that could afford them. Nobody ever said they were bad players. It's the details that lowered their value on the trade market.

Going back to my earlier example:

If you have a really expensive car but you have to sell it because you cannot afford it anymore, you won't get what you would otherwise be offered if the situation was different. The Rangers couldn't afford Hagelin, and he was a free agent. Everyone in the world knew the Rangers could not afford him. Gorton had no leverage. Same goes for Talbot.
 
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He deserves an A+ for being the first Rangers GM in over 20 years to sign a marquee UFA who is actually better than expected.

The key is accepting this season as more of a rebuild than last year. I'd like to see him trade Nash and Hayes, possibly McDonagh as well.

Those three trades would put this organization in a position to build a powerhouse. I know it hurts Henrik's chances but screw that. They have stars developing in both Buchnevich and Skjei, with Zibanejad not too far behind. Throw in Kreider, Miller, then the two young centers in Chytil and Andersson (plus Zucc who will never age) and you have the makings of a dominant team regardless of who the goalie is.

If he can get multiple 1sts in 2018 and 2019 for those two, in three years they can have a defense with four prime McDonaghs instead of the real thing who will be old and expensive.
 
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