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Jason Botterill Discussion Part 5

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I think it’s obvious that Beane is competent, and good at what he does. That we lucked into him thru McDermott is the truth.

but McDermott has personnel input too, right? I have doubts about him in-game...definitely... but they changed the culture around after it seemed like an unbelievably daunting task
 
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valet said:
The thing that I don't understand is how the Pegula's hire great management for the Bills, but fail miserably at it with hockey. They already have themselves a blueprint for hiring the right people. Just do it with the Sabres too.
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Let's face it, they got lucky with the Bills hires. McDermott turned out to be a true franchise head coach, but McDermott has been passed over by for years before getting his shot. McDermott brought us Beane. Together they built one of the best young front offices in the NFL. Multiple people will get GM jobs in the near future.

I do think Botterill has convinced the Pegulas to be patient. I think they're trying to build a winning culture from Rochester up. I have a feeling that Botterill may have a couple more years. Technically the Sabres have attained more points each of his seasons, at least they're on pace to. Rochester has become a good AHL franchise.

Part of Botterill's problem right now with fans and media getting frustrated is he didn't listen to his own advice about being patient with young players. Had Mittelstadt and Tage Thompson been in the AHL from day 1 and if both were performing well we would be having a different conversation, possibly excited. Even with both players turning it around in the AHL fans are saying they should have been there a lot earlier or from the start. It adds to the frustration with Botterill. We really don't know what he's trying to do because he hurt the development of 2 very important prospects by keeping them in the NHL too long instead of being patient.
 
Sabre Dance said:
Let's face it, they got lucky with the Bills hires. McDermott turned out to be a true franchise head coach, but McDermott has been passed over by for years before getting his shot. McDermott brought us Beane. Together they built one of the best young front offices in the NFL. Multiple people will get GM jobs in the near future.

I do think Botterill has convinced the Pegulas to be patient. I think they're trying to build a winning culture from Rochester up. I have a feeling that Botterill may have a couple more years. Technically the Sabres have attained more points each of his seasons, at least they're on pace to. Rochester has become a good AHL franchise.

Part of Botterill's problem right now with fans and media getting frustrated is he didn't listen to his own advice about being patient with young players. Had Mittelstadt and Tage Thompson been in the AHL from day 1 and if both were performing well we would be having a different conversation, possibly excited. Even with both players turning it around in the AHL fans are saying they should have been there a lot earlier or from the start. It adds to the frustration with Botterill. We really don't know what he's trying to do because he hurt the development of 2 very important prospects by keeping them in the NHL too long instead of being patient.
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Rochester "became good" by loading up on a bunch of what in baseball terms are AAAA players: Guys who are good at that level but will never amount to NHL players. There are very few real prospects in Rochester.
 
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sabremike said:
Rochester "became good" by loading up on a bunch of what in baseball terms are AAAA players: Guys who are good at that level but will never amount to NHL players. There are very few real prospects in Rochester.
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It's still a winning environment for a lot of our top prospects.
 
Sabre Dance said:
That was the whole point. Both players should have been in Rochester and Botterill botched that.
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You made a list of or top prospects including Mitts & Thompson
They both played over 100 NHL games
They arent prospects anymore
 
sabrebuild said:
Nor did either one benefit from our winning environment.

Nor did upl.

Pilut and Olofsson were vets coming in and led those teams.

Asplund I'll give you.
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If Olofsson was considered a "vet", then so was Asplund.
 
kirby11 said:
They're 0-6 in the playoffs the past 2 years and currently have defensemen playing at forward or not getting enough ice time because Botts thinks making trades is too hard
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Don't you believe that Botterill would be getting less heat right now had he been more patient with younger players? It's something he said he wanted to do when he got hired. He didn't listen to his own words.
 
Sabre Dance said:
Don't you believe that Botterill would be getting less heat right now had he been more patient with younger players? It's something he said he wanted to do when he got hired. He didn't listen to his own words.
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I don't think that is the #1 issue.

The #1 issue is that more of the players that he has added since becoming the GM have been a net negative.

And he moved a core piece for multiple pieces that have not moved the team forward in any way, shape, or form.

Also, when things have shown to not be working, he hasn't made any moves to resolve the roster issues that remain.
 
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Sabre Dance said:
Don't you believe that Botterill would be getting less heat right now had he been more patient with younger players? It's something he said he wanted to do when he got hired. He didn't listen to his own words.
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Overall, no. Because outside of not being patient with young players, he has failed at pretty much every aspect of being a GM and building a winning team. EVERY GM says they will be patient with players. The goal is to build a system in place within the organization to be patient with your players. But you also need to build so that your prospects are getting the time to develop their potential.

There are a lot of instances of him not listening to his own words.
 
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History of hockey trades by general manager Jason Botterill - NHL Trade Tracker

'17 3rd to MTL for Beaulieu :thumbd:
'17 6th to VGK for expansion draft considerations :dunno:
Ennis, Foligno, & '18 3rd to MIN for Scandella, Pominville, & '18 4th :propeller
Deslauriers to MTL for Redmond :rolly:
'19 5th to DET for Wilson :cool:
EKane to SJS for Cond '19 1st, O'Regan, '20 4th :cool:
Fasching to ARZ for Hickey & Sislo :huh:
'19 Cond 4th to PIT for Sheary & Hunwick :thumbd:
ROR to STL for Sobotka, Berglund, Thompson, '19 1st, & '21 2nd :help:
Pu, '19 2nd, '20 3rd, & '20 6th to CAR for Skinner :thumbu:
Baptiste to NASH for Dougherty :silly:
Fedun to DAL for '20 7th :facepalm:
Bailey to PHI for Leier :dainty:
Guhle & '19 1st to ANA for Montour :dunno:
Beaulieu to WIN for '19 6th :surrender
'21 2nd & '22 5th to VGS for Miller :thumbd:
'21 3rd to NYR for Vesey :thumbd:
Nylander to CHI for Jokiharju :thumbu:
Stephens to TBL for Spencer :rolly:
Scandella to MTL for '20 4th :surrender
MTL '20 4th to CAL for Frolik :joker:

For those keeping score at home, there are two out of 21 trades that have made the Sabres better, IMO.

Adding Skinner and Jokiharju isn't enough given what Botterill has let leave over his time here.

And then you can look at his FA signings and it doesn't get better:

Signings - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps
 
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Bills/Sabres comparisons arent really good.

1) It shows there's luck involved in hiring
2) The bills have improved, but there's still a lot to be desired from the coaching staff.
 
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TehDoak said:
When a GM talking about "not going to harm this organization". Literally what the hell? He's so paralyzed by fear he might hurt the team he's doing nothing....which is hurting the team.

I'm typically a "patience is good for a rebuilding team", but when you have a top 5 NHL center having a MVP caliber season, and your team is STILL bad?

This is literally what we tanked FOR. It's not time to sit on the side lines, it's time to take some risks.
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But we know he can still hurt the team in many ways. I want something to happen, but there are a few ways to screw a team into a worse situation than its already in, that I'd like to avoid.
 
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Royisgone said:
Agreed. And although the Bills are arguably in better shape now than they have been in years, I am not convinced McDermott is better than an average HC.

Lots of sports fans in WNY seem to think McBeane are unquestionably top tier; they aren't.
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Arguably? They are unquestionably in better shape now than they've been since the late 90s, which were over 20 years ago.

That doesn't mean they're SB contenders or that McBean are the long-term answers, but we should feel better than we have at any singular point since the late 90s. They finally got back to the point where many franchises are - stable enough for regular playoff appearances, looking to take the next step to elite football clubs. The hardest step to take.

I don't think we disagree much, I just took issue with "arguably." There's nothing arguable about this
 
Tatanka said:
Whether they hired great management for the Bills is still debatable to me. But the real issue is there insistence that both franchises be run through the PSE umbrella. They mistakenly believe that sports properties are fungible and that a uniform management philosophy will work for both. Hockey and football are drastically different beasts. The no cut contract in hockey is diametrically opposed to the no guarantee contracts in football. Further, the talent evaluation process is much more refined in football with the ability to draft men coming out of sophisticated developmental programs that have less unknowns. Hockey requires casting your lot on teenagers before you have an idea of their mental and physical growth propensity.

The Pegulas are trying to create a brand around PSE through their products Sabres Bills Bandits et al. The problem is the products are so unique they shouldn’t be managed centrally. There needs to be separate “companies” so to speak, that are accountable for each product. There are no shared economies. There are unique operating environments for each. To believe that they are similar is the first misstep. Not having the proper subject matter expertise driving decision making naturally follows. And here we are.
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You can sum up the reason for the Pegula's failure in one word, arrogance.
 
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The line about checking in with the pegulas after this "stretch of games" sent up red flags. Of course, that could be when they finally decide to fire Botts. It could also be when they realize that they need to back the f*** out and let hockey minds take control of this team.

@Buffaloed said it's arrogance and i tend to agree. I think it's a healthy dose of egotistical arrogance and hockey ignorance driving them to make poor hire after poor hire. Until they realize that all they need to do to earn the love and admiration of this city and these fans is to let go and let better minds get the team(s) winning again. Once that happens, they'll be the toast of the town.

No one hated golisano in '05-'06, or even 06-07. Only after his closed purse helped lead to both captains walking away...that's when we all started to turn our backs. Take note Tpegs.
 
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