Jason Botterill Discussion 2

[Icicle]

Botts paid more for Montour then he got for Kane... it’s ok, it’s all gonna work out he just needs more time to evaluate and let Murray’s pipeline hit the NHL....

Comparing a rental with baggage versus a top pairing RFA RD. Missed you

 

[Moncton man]

The Scandella trade isn’t great because the dude got vertigo and went from our best defenseman to our worst after the concussions that caused them?

Really hard on the GM for not having the clairvoyance to predict that one.

But people did exactly the same with Kulikov getting injured and Okposo too.

 

[Icicle]

But people did exactly the same with Kulikov getting injured and Okposo too.

As much as I’ve disliked Murray I always gave him a pass for Kulikov. It was the rinks fault for that one. Regardless of the concussion, Okposo was still a bad deal though.

 

[Jame]

Comparing a rental with baggage versus a top pairing RFA RD. Missed you

Uh no... we got a 1st when Kane became a 7 year asset... as a rental we only managed a 2nd.

Edit: lol I didn’t even catch you trying to get away with calling Montour a top pair D

 

[MagnumForce2]

Botts got lucky when Berglund bailed.

 

[Buffaloed]

Murray was a GM on a mission. Botterill is just missing.

 

[Zip15]

Botts got lucky when Berglund bailed.

Big time. It's startling how many fortunate occurrences we've had in his tenure - Dahlin, SJ re-signing Kane, Skinner wanting to be close to home, etc. - and yet...here we are.

 

[CatsforReinhart]

Murray was a GM on a mission. Botterill is just missing.

What Mission? Tank commander?

 

[joshjull]

@Jame

Those 3 moves are the tip of the iceberg for me with Murray though. I'm not going to relitigate Murray's entire tenure move by move but I have some thoughts..…

He was a terrible GM who was in over his head and had no idea how to run a franchise. There are several examples that could be mentioned here but the best one for me to show his cluelessness as well as clumsiness is the following. Murray's random out of the blue decision to change the punishment policy for being late to things (Practice, stretches, meetings, etc). He decides to do this with 1 month left in the season (It would be his last season). He decides anyone late to anything gets sat for an entire game. He's heard this type of policy has worked elsewhere so he's going to implement it here. Nothing wrong with having a policy like this. But keep in mind he is over 2 years into his tenure as our GM and its near the end of a season. Very odd time to suddenly implement something like this. It also shows he has ignored this type of structure for the entire 2+ years of his tenure prior to that.

Then of course doesn't properly plan for the eventuality that someone may actually violate this new policy. Comedy ensues not long after this decision. Sam ends up sitting for entire game while fully dressed. No one, including the broadcast crew, has any idea what's going on. Word gets out that Sam violated a rule and naturally the speculation runs wild Sam must have done something horrible since they didn't even do this to Kane. You remember Kane missing practice after partying in Toronto for the NBA All star game and the blowing off a practice. He got to sit at home but Sam was made a public spectacle (not intentionally obviously). Then we find out he was just 5mins late for a morning stretch at the hotel and there was no extra forward to dress. What a clown show.


We gutted this franchise to ensure we would finish at the very bottom for the best chance at McDavid. It was pure hubris on Murray's part to think he could quickly reverse/undue all of that with some big overpayment trades in one offseason. I firmly believe we would have been better off had none of the trades Murray made took place at all. (or at least no worse off at the time of his firing but with a lot of young talent on the way) . We needed a slow patient hand at GM to bring us out of the tank and into Jack's earlier years. Someone to nickel and dime placeholder vets and let the youth come up over the next 1-3 years (after Jack's draft). We didn't need a GM chasing players he was fanboying over from his scouting days. Murray wasted a lot of assets in those trades. ​

I'll give Murray credit for his drafting in the 2nd round and later as well as finding undrafted talent. He has found some depth for us there that will help going forward. I gave credit to him for this previously in a thread last offseason about the coming youth. But he really botched the 1st rounds he had by either trading away the picks or making a poor choice with his 8th overall (Nylander over Sergachev or even McAvoy) One could also argue its looking like his fanboying on Sam may have cost us the better player available to us in that draft (Draisaitl) as well. I mean if we are playing the "hindsight" game. Its only fair to bring it up. Hell Jack hasn't even put up a season near what Draisaitl did this year


I say all this because I find it amazing that anyone would try to defend Murray's tenure. He was terrible on so many fronts. There was so much more I could have posted. But I will put as much blame for Murray's tenure on Pegula , Patty LaFontaine as I will on Murray. It was a gong show for those years with the blind leading the stupid.


NONE of this is a defense of Botts by they way. Regardless of what I think about Murray and whatever the state of the team and franchise was when Botts took over. The NHL team is performing worse than it was 2 years ago. That's on Botts. I think he's done a lot to fix the overall structure of the organization along with getting development right. But at the end of the day its what the NHL team is doing and again that's on Botts. Starting with his hiring of Phil to coach the team ​

 

[DolanPlsGoSabres]

For those who were grading GM trades:

FA Signings/Waiver Claims:

TM:
Cory Conacher (waivers 3/14)

Brian Gionta (FA 7/14)
Matt Moulson (FA 7/14)
Cody McCormick (FA 7/14)
Tyson Strachan (FA 7/14)
Andrej Meszaros (FA 7/14)
Zac Dalpe (FA 7/14)
Andre Benoit (FA 7/14)
Jean Dupuy (UDFA 11/14)
Evan Rodrigues (College FA 4/15)

Jason Akeson (FA 7/15)
Matt Donovan (FA 7/15)
Bobby Sanguinetti (FA 7/15)
Cal O'Reilly (FA 7/15)
Carlo Colaiacovo (FA 7/15)
Cody Franson (FA 9/15)
Casey Nelson (College FA 3/16)

Kyle Okposo (FA 7/16)
Taylor Fedun (FA 7/16)
Justin Falk (FA 7/16)
Derek Grant (FA 7/16 - later claimed/reacquired via waivers 3/17)
Erik Burgdoerfer (FA 7/16)
CJ Smith (College FA 3/17)


JB:
Victor Antipin (Euro FA 5/17)
Kyle Criscuolo (FA 7/17)
Seth Griffith (FA 7/17)
Chad Johnson (FA 7/17)
Jacob Josefson (FA 7/17)
Kevin Porter (FA 7/17)
Benoit Pouliot (FA 7/17)
Matt Tennyson (FA 7/17)
Adam Wilcox (FA 7/17)
Jordan Nolan (Waivers 9/17)
Andrew Oglevie (College FA 4/18)
Lawrence Pilut (Euro FA 5/18)

Carter Hutton (FA 7/18)
Scott Wedgewood (FA 7/18)
Remi Elie (Waivers 10/18)

 

[Baccus]

In a 2021 mindset all is well

If he doesn’t fire Housley then I’ll have a problem with him.

What's the outlook for 2030? Might as well be patient.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Sam's splits with Mitts make Mitts go vs. Mitts without... with almost nary a dip in Jack's production offensively.

I wanted to like this post twice.

Once for the Mittelstadt-Reinhart combo.

Once for the use of the word "nary."

 

[Jame]

@Jame

Those 3 moves are the tip of the iceberg for me with Murray though. I'm not going to relitigate Murray's entire tenure move by move but I have some thoughts..…

He was a terrible GM who was in over his head and had no idea how to run a franchise. There are several examples that could be mentioned here but the best one for me to show his cluelessness as well as clumsiness is the following. Murray's random out of the blue decision to change the punishment policy for being late to things (Practice, stretches, meetings, etc). He decides to do this with 1 month left in the season (It would be his last season). He decides anyone late to anything gets sat for an entire game. He's heard this type of policy has worked elsewhere so he's going to implement it here. Nothing wrong with having a policy like this. But keep in mind he is over 2 years into his tenure as our GM and its near the end of a season. Very odd time to suddenly implement something like this. It also shows he has ignored this type of structure for the entire 2+ years of his tenure prior to that.

Then of course doesn't properly plan for the eventuality that someone may actually violate this new policy. Comedy ensues not long after this decision. Sam ends up sitting for entire game while fully dressed. No one, including the broadcast crew, has any idea what's going on. Word gets out that Sam violated a rule and naturally the speculation runs wild Sam must have done something horrible since they didn't even do this to Kane. You remember Kane missing practice after partying in Toronto for the NBA All star game and the blowing off a practice. He got to sit at home but Sam was made a public spectacle (not intentionally obviously). Then we find out he was just 5mins late for a morning stretch at the hotel and there was no extra forward to dress. What a clown show.​

I’ve always agreed with this. Murray did not know how to run an organization...

We gutted this franchise to ensure we would finish at the very bottom for the best chance at McDavid. It was pure hubris on Murray's part to think he could quickly reverse/undue all of that with some big overpayment trades in one offseason. I firmly believe we would have been better off had none of the trades Murray made took place at all. (or at least no worse off at the time of his firing but with a lot of young talent on the way) . We needed a slow patient hand at GM to bring us out of the tank and into Jack's earlier years. Someone to nickel and dime placeholder vets and let the youth come up over the next 1-3 years (after Jack's draft). We didn't need a GM chasing players he was fanboying over from his scouting days. Murray wasted a lot of assets in those trades.

I disagree. His hubris was in his belief that putting a talented roster together and hiring someone to coach it, was the entirety of his job.​

I'll give Murray credit for his drafting in the 2nd round and later as well as finding undrafted talent. He has found some depth for us there that will help going forward. I gave credit to him for this previously in a thread last offseason about the coming youth. But he really botched the 1st rounds he had by either trading away the picks or making a poor choice with his 8th overall (Nylander over Sergachev or even McAvoy) One could also argue its looking like his fanboying on Sam may have cost us the better player available to us in that draft (Draisaitl) as well. I mean if we are playing the "hindsight" game. Its only fair to bring it up. Hell Jack hasn't even put up a season near what Draisaitl did this year​

Side bar: Draisaitl is a pretty terrible player when away from McDavid.

I say all this because I find it amazing that anyone would try to defend Murray's tenure. He was terrible on so many fronts. There was so much more I could have posted. But I will put as much blame for Murray's tenure on Pegula , Patty LaFontaine as I will on Murray. It was a gong show for those years with the blind leading the stupid.

There’s no defending Murray’s overall tenure... the biggest problems of which you identified in your first few paragraphs.... It is worth recognizing that the elements of Murray’s tenure that got the loudest criticism, actually pale in comparison to those same elements of Botts tenure (trades).



​

 

[Aladyyn]

The notion that a player who gets badly outshot, outchanced, and outscored any time he's not playing next to a top 3 forward would somehow help this team is pretty funny.

 

[Icicle]

I’ve always agreed with this. Murray did not know how to run an organization...



I disagree. His hubris was in his belief that putting a talented roster together and hiring someone to coach it, was the entirety of his job.​

Side bar: Draisaitl is a pretty terrible player when away from McDavid.







There’s no defending Murray’s overall tenure... the biggest problems of which you identified in your first few paragraphs.... It is worth recognizing that the elements of Murray’s tenure that got the loudest criticism, actually pale in comparison to those same elements of Botts tenure (trades).



​

The point of difference you’re missing is that Murray spent the entire liquid inheritance and mortgaged the farm to win during his time. Botterill stabilized the payments and saved the future, while doing the best he could manage with poisoned assets (Kane, ROR, and Lehner) while unfortunately having to dish them away because we didn’t have strong enough of a foundation anymore to support their burdens and turn any of them around.

You are right in saying, objectively the NHL team did worse in the standings. But it didn’t nearly cost us anything close to as much and now the future is bright.

Albeit, he learns from his mistake and fires the coach this weekend. I he doesn’t do that, well, all his good is for nought. Murray was about to commit the same failure keeping Bylsma around until the owners saved us from that.

The reason that people keep bringing up Murray when looking at Botterill is that they had completely different starting points. Murray had a plethora of liquid assets to start his reign. Darcy left him with a lot, and no expectations for two years to tank until it had to turn around. Botterill inherited a mess with maybe some talent, but no system to support any of it and bare minimum of assets. So when you compare the two and what they’ve changed in the organization, it should be compared on a different level. And I don’t think the Botterill haters are being fair to this

 

[Jame]

The point of difference you’re missing is that Murray spent the entire liquid inheritance and mortgaged the farm to win during his time. Botterill stabilized the payments and saved the future, while doing the best he could manage with poisoned assets (Kane, ROR, and Lehner) while unfortunately having to dish them away because we didn’t have strong enough of a foundation anymore to support their burdens and turn any of them around.

The competent GMs around the league are preparing for the playoffs with those so called poisoned assets.

The foundation of you “poisoned assets” argument crumbled months ago... catch up

 

[Icicle]

The competent GMs around the league are preparing for the playoffs with those so called poisoned assets.

The foundation of you “poisoned assets” argument crumbled months ago... catch up

Kane stepped into a strong locker room and was forced to live with a vet pro for the remainder of his last season to get his ass in gear. ROR got to step into another team without a letter in his chest. Lehner went to freaking rehab. They were all miserably poisoned assets and we had none of the tools to fix any of these three cases. Period.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Kane went to a better team with a better coach and an older line-up. It was the right type of place for a player like Kane. Plus, he seems happier in the bigger West Coast environment.

Lehner got well and added the best goalie coach in hockey.

ROR is still ROR, just with a better overall line-up, and a better goalie.

Not tore up about Kane. He had to go for numerous reasons. Lehner's issues can't be laid on Murray or Botterill. Probably could foresee his issues developing, or foresee him getting well and tearing it up.

ROR was just a silly trade.

 

[Dreakon13]

I'm fine with Botteril at this point.

Sheary, Skinner, Scandella, Montour, etc are all good adds (especially at their respective times). Maybe not the right guys to pull up a team this dysfunctional, but I'm starting to think there is no "right guy" for that. As long as any cap dumps brought along with them to keep the price low are safe in regards to term (the 20/21 plan), I think it's misplaced to dwell on them.

I'm 100% okay with leaving Rochester alone this year. The fans idea of dismantling Rochester mid-stride for the sake of "trying anything" to keep a massively overachieving Sabres team afloat would've been astoundingly stupid IMO. One, because it wouldn't have made a dent in our chances anyways, considering just how hard the drop off was after the streak. Two, it would've put a wrench in what's currently the best season for Rochester in years and a wonderful development environment. Three, expecting Olofsson or Nylander or any one or two players/first time NHLers to come up and "save our season" is a lot of pressure and probably a shot to the confidence in these guys when it inevitably didn't work out.

The cap dumps and truly problematic contracts are all gone (with the exception of Okposo I think) after next year... which appears to be roughly the timeline for plucking numerous players off of what could be a perpetually successful Rochester team (the 20/21 plan). And having a pipe of newer draft picks ready to fill in down there. And given how well the group is doing, I think that's a fine approach. Honestly, it's probably the only realistic approach.

Botts should stay the course... but he needs to get rid of Housley. If that's the hill he dies on, that's where I draw the line with Botts. Interested to see how this offseason plays out.


EDIT: I think the ROR trade was more on Pegula, given the obvious "bonus" deadline that defined it. Botts ended up being stuck taking the highest lowball offer he was given, while still trying to stick to the gameplan and adding a competent player to the roster (Berglund) and futures/projects (picks/Thompson). Sobotka's term fit into the 20/21 plan and even had Berglund stayed, his cap hit cut in half that season.

 

[kirby11]

Botts paid more for Montour then he got for Kane... it’s ok, it’s all gonna work out he just needs more time to evaluate and let Murray’s pipeline hit the NHL....

Not that O'Regan would be a world beater or anything in the NHL, but the fact that he might walk without us having determined whether or not he could be a good depth piece is really annoying.

Can't wait to go into next year with 2 decent bottom 6 pieces (one of girgs/Larry and erod, I expect) and a collection of misfit toys again.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Big time. It's startling how many fortunate occurrences we've had in his tenure - Dahlin, SJ re-signing Kane, Skinner wanting to be close to home, etc. - and yet...here we are.

The day we won the lottery someone tweeted: “Jason Botterill just got a whole lot smarter today.”

You could say that about any of these events. The dude has a horseshoe up his ass and he doesn’t take advantage of it.

 

[Baccus]

Kane stepped into a strong locker room and was forced to live with a vet pro for the remainder of his last season to get his ass in gear. ROR got to step into another team without a letter in his chest. Lehner went to freaking rehab. They were all miserably poisoned assets and we had none of the tools to fix any of these three cases. Period.

The bolded part above is a serious part of the problem for the Sabres, and something they need to address. Instead of losing talent. The organization seems to have repeated problems being unable to identify problems with their own players.

 

[Jame]

Kane stepped into a strong locker room and was forced to live with a vet pro for the remainder of his last season to get his ass in gear. ROR got to step into another team without a letter in his chest. Lehner went to freaking rehab. They were all miserably poisoned assets and we had none of the tools to fix any of these three cases. Period.

Thanks Botts

 

[flashsabre]

Kane stepped into a strong locker room and was forced to live with a vet pro for the remainder of his last season to get his ass in gear. ROR got to step into another team without a letter in his chest. Lehner went to freaking rehab. They were all miserably poisoned assets and we had none of the tools to fix any of these three cases. Period.

I don't understand this reasoning. They had the tools to fix all 3 if they chose. Kane wasn't worth it to me as I don't value his hockey sense. We don't know the real issue with ROR. Was he that depressing, did he demand a trade, was his dad that much of a pain in the ass? But I'm sure there was a way around it. And Lehner could have went to rehab here and got clean. He would still be playing in this system though instead of the Isles which is much more goalie friendly but he could have been back too.

 

[OkimLom]

@Jame

Those 3 moves are the tip of the iceberg for me with Murray though. I'm not going to relitigate Murray's entire tenure move by move but I have some thoughts..…

He was a terrible GM who was in over his head and had no idea how to run a franchise. There are several examples that could be mentioned here but the best one for me to show his cluelessness as well as clumsiness is the following. Murray's random out of the blue decision to change the punishment policy for being late to things (Practice, stretches, meetings, etc). He decides to do this with 1 month left in the season (It would be his last season). He decides anyone late to anything gets sat for an entire game. He's heard this type of policy has worked elsewhere so he's going to implement it here. Nothing wrong with having a policy like this. But keep in mind he is over 2 years into his tenure as our GM and its near the end of a season. Very odd time to suddenly implement something like this. It also shows he has ignored this type of structure for the entire 2+ years of his tenure prior to that.

Then of course doesn't properly plan for the eventuality that someone may actually violate this new policy. Comedy ensues not long after this decision. Sam ends up sitting for entire game while fully dressed. No one, including the broadcast crew, has any idea what's going on. Word gets out that Sam violated a rule and naturally the speculation runs wild Sam must have done something horrible since they didn't even do this to Kane. You remember Kane missing practice after partying in Toronto for the NBA All star game and the blowing off a practice. He got to sit at home but Sam was made a public spectacle (not intentionally obviously). Then we find out he was just 5mins late for a morning stretch at the hotel and there was no extra forward to dress. What a clown show.


We gutted this franchise to ensure we would finish at the very bottom for the best chance at McDavid. It was pure hubris on Murray's part to think he could quickly reverse/undue all of that with some big overpayment trades in one offseason. I firmly believe we would have been better off had none of the trades Murray made took place at all. (or at least no worse off at the time of his firing but with a lot of young talent on the way) . We needed a slow patient hand at GM to bring us out of the tank and into Jack's earlier years. Someone to nickel and dime placeholder vets and let the youth come up over the next 1-3 years (after Jack's draft). We didn't need a GM chasing players he was fanboying over from his scouting days. Murray wasted a lot of assets in those trades. ​

I'll give Murray credit for his drafting in the 2nd round and later as well as finding undrafted talent. He has found some depth for us there that will help going forward. I gave credit to him for this previously in a thread last offseason about the coming youth. But he really botched the 1st rounds he had by either trading away the picks or making a poor choice with his 8th overall (Nylander over Sergachev or even McAvoy) One could also argue its looking like his fanboying on Sam may have cost us the better player available to us in that draft (Draisaitl) as well. I mean if we are playing the "hindsight" game. Its only fair to bring it up. Hell Jack hasn't even put up a season near what Draisaitl did this year


I say all this because I find it amazing that anyone would try to defend Murray's tenure. He was terrible on so many fronts. There was so much more I could have posted. But I will put as much blame for Murray's tenure on Pegula , Patty LaFontaine as I will on Murray. It was a gong show for those years with the blind leading the stupid.


NONE of this is a defense of Botts by they way. Regardless of what I think about Murray and whatever the state of the team and franchise was when Botts took over. The NHL team is performing worse than it was 2 years ago. That's on Botts. I think he's done a lot to fix the overall structure of the organization along with getting development right. But at the end of the day its what the NHL team is doing and again that's on Botts. Starting with his hiring of Phil to coach the team ​

RE: punishment policy;

Absolutely agree on that front. Should’ve been implemented in the beginning. Curious if he relegated that job/task to Nolan and Bylsma. Murray seemed to be more occupied with scouting/drafting than dealing with lineup decisions. Either way he should’ve had that in place.