Jason Botterill Discussion 2

[joshjull]

Cool, keep Botterill as the AHL GM when we replace him. He's more fit for that job.

Such a petulant post. Is it really that hard for you to admit Botts did something good?

 

[Jame]

Such a petulant post. Is it really that hard for you to admit Botts did something good?

Hard to recognize the beautiful garden he planted, after he burned the house down... yea, it's a beautiful garden... will bear lots of fruit. But where do we live?

 

[joshjull]

If there's been one positive in this Botts era, it's the hiring of Taylor (wish, when he was here under Murray, he would've been promoted to HC for Rochester instead of the moron Lambert being the HC in 16-17). Love what's he done down there.

My issue with Botts is how he has handled the part of the team where the players go to when they are done developing. He has a done a poor job of creating an atmosphere that builds upon how Taylor plays the game. Organizational symmetry is non existent for this Franchise. As much as it is important for the team to create a quality team to be developed in down in Rochester (what appears to be a success), it's just as important to have a team with the main roster that you can plug and play these developed players. Buffalo is lacking in that, and the longer they continue down that path, the worse it's going to get, as everything Taylor has done down there, would be ruined. Just look at Pilut when he was called up and then sent down.

Botts not sending Mittelstadt down in Rochester to be developed by Taylor pisses me off to no end, BECAUSE of the quality of Rochester.

As for Rochester, I have ZERO issues with how they have handled Rochester as a team, full credit goes to Botts and Sexton for that. Very important to get the prospect system running smoothly.

I don’t really have an issue with Mitts staying up. For a 19/20 rookie playing center he was fine. He just wasn’t the Elias Peterrsson we were hoping for. But I understand the sentiment for wanting him to go to Rochester for development. I wanted to see Sam with him all year since it would have helped him enormously. But I was more annoyed with keeping Tage up here when he demonstrated he was clearly not ready.

I hate how Housley handled the young players who came up this year. That’s on Botts since he hired the dingus.

 

[Zman5778]

I agree that Murray overpaid in almost every trade he made. I always wanted one piece back (Compher in the ROR deal in particular, Armia or the pick in the Brokeo/Kane deal) and it hurt them.

Botterill said mobile, attacking defense and went and got Beaulieu as an experiment (bad on the ice, then good, then bad in trade), signed Pilut (again, ToI stuff went from good to bad as he was jerked around in and out of the lineup), dealt for Montour (unknown what that pick will be but Guhle seemed like he'd stalled). The Great Gift of landing Dahlin via lotto balls could not have been planned. Granted, he also got Scandella and Hunwick who are not particularly good at transition and continues to allow his coach to cave Risto every night (which will soon be Montour, based on recent absence replacement).

Up front is where things are questionable. He doesn't seem to put as much weight in physical players (Foligno and Carrier out, Wilson in) and his skill guys have tended to be smaller, quicker players (Skinner, Sheary, Mitts). I have no issue with Smurfs, especially quick ones, but his vets, filler, and defensive forwards have been truly inadequate.

Ya know.......Murray had a vision and had the forwards to do it, but couldn't put a defense together at all. (He did have it right on Lehner, who appears to have finally righted the ship)

Botts has a vision, and now has the defense to do it, but his forward moves have been entirely questionable. (Ditto goaltending)

Soo.....we need some bizarro wombo combo of Botts AND Murray rolled into one GM? Murray's forward/goaltending ability with Bott's defense?

 

[Zman5778]

I don’t really have an issue with MItts staying up. For a 19/20 rookie playing center he was fine. He just wasn’t the Elias Peterrsson we were hoping for. But I understand the sentiment for wanting him to get stent ot Rochester for development. I wanted to see Sam with him all year since it would have helped him enormously. But I was more annoyed with keeping Tage up here when he demonstrated he was clearly not ready.

I hate how Housley handled the young players who came up this year. That’s on Botts fault since he hired the dingus.

To me the Mitts "issue" comes down to being blindsided by Berglund. I think the plan was to shelter Mitts on the 4th line while Eichel/Berglund/Larsson took the majority of play at center. Then Berglund bailed, and Botts had no plan B, C or D......which left Mitts doing way more than intended. To Mitts' credit, he hasn't looked awful and has certainly showed glimpses that he can be the legit #2 C behind Jack we need, POSSIBLY as soon as late next year.

On the one hand, it's tough to blame Botts for what Berglund did. On the other hand.......isn't the job of a GM to do his best to ensure that if wacky stuff happens, we at least have some semblance of a plan?

 

[Aladyyn]

If the plan was to shelter Casey with a player who is worse than Casey... that's just another mark against management.

 

[Aladyyn]

Such a petulant post. Is it really that hard for you to admit Botts did something good?

I'm just trying to put him in a position to succeed.

 

[joshjull]

I'm just trying to put him in a position to succeed.

That’s pretty good.

 

[joshjull]

To me the Mitts "issue" comes down to being blindsided by Berglund. I think the plan was to shelter Mitts on the 4th line while Eichel/Berglund/Larsson took the majority of play at center. Then Berglund bailed, and Botts had no plan B, C or D......which left Mitts doing way more than intended. To Mitts' credit, he hasn't looked awful and has certainly showed glimpses that he can be the legit #2 C behind Jack we need, POSSIBLY as soon as late next year.

On the one hand, it's tough to blame Botts for what Berglund did. On the other hand.......isn't the job of a GM to do his best to ensure that if wacky stuff happens, we at least have some semblance of a plan?

I don’t think the Berglund situation changed much for Mitts. He was usually getting the 4th of 4 in minutes at ES. That was the case for pretty much the entire season. Oddly he still is getting that right now with absolutely nothing on the line. Phil sucks.

Phil should have anchored the two scoring lines with Skinner/Jack and Mitts/Sam. Having Sam with Mitts would have made his life so much easier. Sam, even on wing, could have carried the line.

 

[Aladyyn]

I don’t think the Berglund situation changed much for Mitts. He was usually getting the 4th of 4 in minutes at ES. That was the case for pretty much the entire season. Oddly he still is getting that right now with absolutely nothing on the line at the moment. Phil sucks.

Phil should have anchored the two scoring lines with Skinner/Jack and Mitss/Sam. Having Sam with Mitts would have made his life so much easier. Sam, even on wing, could have carried the line.

The worst part is, they did play them together. And it was good, it worked! And then Phil was like "nah, let's not"

 

[OkimLom]

I don’t really have an issue with MItts staying up. For a 19/20 rookie playing center he was fine. He just wasn’t the Elias Peterrsson we were hoping for. But I understand the sentiment for wanting him to go to Rochester for development. I wanted to see Sam with him all year since it would have helped him enormously. But I was more annoyed with keeping Tage up here when he demonstrated he was clearly not ready.

I hate how Housley handled the young players who came up this year. That’s on Botts since he hired the dingus.

After training camp, I figured Mittelstadt wouldn't have a solid year. I felt, if you're sending Nylander down who, IMO, played consistently better than Mittelstadt through the tournament and camp, then send down Casey. You would be sending him down to a less pressure situation, being developed/coached by someone of better quality than Housley in everyway. Not to mention, the main roster wasn't going to be counted on to be competitive. There was literally no need to rush him, especially when you have acquired two players that were supposed to play in a position you just gutted. You're risking having a young player, being around a room that can be very toxic if there is not of quality leadership in the room. That's a very dangerous thing to risk with Casey, a player, you apparently are counting on to be integral in the future to your lineup.

I believe it was an unnecessary dumb decision on Botts part.

 

[joshjull]

If the plan was to shelter Casey with a player who is worse than Casey... that's just another mark against management.

You’ve kind of summed up Housley’s coaching style. He’s so afraid of the young guys screwing up that he’s more willing to play a lesser player above them to avoid it. Yet the effect is to get far less from the young talented player than you could have and an older player bringing little to nothing in their place. Its the polar opposite of how Taylor coaches the Amerks. Where he challenges his younger talented players and doesn’t give up on them when they f*** up. Its amazing to see such polar opposite approaches in the same organization.

 

[GrierIsGod123]

You’ve kind of summed up Housley’s coaching style. He’s so afraid of the young guys screwing up that he’s more willing to play a lesser player above them to avoid it. Yet the effect is to get far less from the young talented player than you could have and an older player bringing little to nothing in their place. Its the polar opposite of how Taylor coaches the Amerks. Where he challenges his younger talented players and doesn’t give up on them when they **** up. Its amazing to see such polar opposite approaches in the same organization.

Such a great post. The more I hear about Taylor, the more intrigued I am. That said, I think this group needs a couple years from a proven winner until Taylor himself is overcooked.

 

[Der Jaeger]

I can’t litigate the Botterill term. I’m too tired. I just want him to find another center and get rid of the baggage from the team.

Or just hire someone who can.

 

[DatGuy]

Hard to recognize the beautiful garden he planted, after he burned the house down... yea, it's a beautiful garden... will bear lots of fruit. But where do we live?

No Fruit for You!

 

[Montag DP]

Hard to recognize the beautiful garden he planted, after he burned the house down... yea, it's a beautiful garden... will bear lots of fruit. But where do we live?

Hard to burn down a house when there wasn't one to begin with. At least there's a garden now instead of a barren impact crater.

 

[Genny Screamer]

Murray built a house of sticks. Botts is building a house one brick at a time.

 

[Icicle]

Mittelstadt was playing 4th line minutes on a sheltered line. He has trash wingers half the year too. And you can count on one hand how many goals this season you'd attribute to him, and they mostly occurred at the start of the season.

The kid has good hands and all the IQ in the world. He struggled with the huge chance of pace of playing defensively, and hasn't looked bad in this regard at all. His biggest knock is conditioning, and that will only improve.

In the AHL he wouldn't have had the same level of defensive growth. His conditioning would still be a burden there. In terms of his own development, there's very little worry about him being harmed playing in the big league. That wasn't his wart.

Same goes for Thompson really. His wart was overrelying on his stick, which he didn't get exposed for in the minors like he did in the pros, and defense, which again isn't as helpful in the minors.


You can bag Botterill for those two players not being the best options to ice the best NHL team this year. I'll give you that. But arguments that they would've had better development in the minors are just using cheap generalizations and missing the details. Neither of the two were in over their head, barring minutes spent with Sobotka. It was the best place for their development.

This year being the year to compete is your fault as a fan for having that expectation. Dead last? No, that's not where we should be. But development of young players? Definitely occurred. And ripening of the guys held back in Rochester all year was the best thing for them too. You can't go from healthy scratching Nylander in minor league playoffs to promoting him to the pros right after. There's no evidence that he would've done just as well if he was up in October instead of Thompson. Same for Oloffson, who had parts of his game to work on in NA.

 

[Sabre Dance]

Murray built a house of sticks. Botts is building a house one brick at a time.

The Murray core got a new coach and proceeded to finish last in the NHL. We can talk support all we want, but they weren't last because of role players.

Don't get me wrong, Botterill hasn't done anything to deserve praise. He deserves criticism for many of his moves that handcuffed the team in the short-term. He did Housley no favors, could be why he doesn't want to fire him yet.

I do think there is a plan, but it was more of a long-term plan, not short-term.

 

[dotcommunism]

Weird how the Islanders looked to be in a far worse position than the Sabres coming into this season, but they had no trouble making the playoffs. Montreal was almost as bad as Buffalo this year and looked like they would be a dumpster fire this year, and yet there they are on the playoff bubble with two games left. Yet somehow Buffalo, with a franchise center and the best young defenseman in years on their team apparently never had any potential hopes of being anything other than straight up garbage. Complete and utter nonsense.

If Botterill's "plan" entailed intentionally pissing away multiple seasons with Eichel, then he never should have gotten the job. If his "plan" doesn't involve making a bona fide effort to actually be competitive next season, not only should he be fired on the spot, he should never ever work in the NHL again in any capacity.

NHL teams can turn things around pretty quickly year to year and the idea that they can't, especially when they've already got a franchise center and franchise defenseman, is nothing other than excuse making for management failures. Botterill has been an abject failure, and what he had to work with coming in does not mitigate his failure, it makes it more glaring.

 

[oldgoalie]

Hard to recognize the beautiful garden he planted, after he burned the house down... yea, it's a beautiful garden... will bear lots of fruit. But where do we live?

With apologies to Elton John:
"Oh, and I've been calling
Oh, hey hey Housley
Can't you come out, can't you come out to play
Housley, can't you come out to play in your empty garden
Housley, can't you come out to play in your empty garden
Housley, can't you come out to play in your empty garden"

 

[Jame]

If the plan was to shelter Casey with a player who is worse than Casey... that's just another mark against management.

If the plan was to shelter Casey, and you lose the ability to shelter Casey... Casey should’ve gone to Rochester to develop.

 

[sabrebuild]

I find it amazing how you and others piss all over what’s gone on in Rochester as if it means nothing. All the players developing and taking good size leaps in development are doing so in large part to the coaching/mentoring of Chris Taylor. To a man the prospects credit Taylor for their growth as players. He wouldn’t be here if Murray was GM. I’d also argue little of what’s going on in development would be taking place with Murray since he ignored development and the farm.

You can hate Botts as GM and there are plenty of things to get on him about. But ragging on the development system/farm team he has put in place doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Its not simply that they are a winning team in the AHL. That in an of itself is not the important element of what’s going on there. Its that they are successfully developing a bunch of prospects in a good environment to do so and thsoe prospects have been, or are becoming, key contributors to that success. That’s a net positive for the organization.

I don't have a problem with having Rochester being well run. I'm pro having quality leadership down there.

But I'm also capable of setting aside basic structural improvement, while realizing that is not a viable way to fix a professional team. Nor do I think that Taylor is a god of development. That team is good, but not dominant in the ahl, and to me that is not something that should be showered with praise. I agree, Murray didn't get Rochester fixed either, but I don't use Murray as a measuring stick for good management. Nor have we seen a line of ahl trained players becoming nhl ready. So why are praising this route without seeing any fruit?

Fundamentally, I don't see the amerks as a path to fixing this team. Look at the list of players on that team. Who is really going to be a good nhl player?

Olofsson, probably. Nylander, hopefully. Asplund probably. Borgen, probably. After that.....

A lot of maybe. And meanwhile the top team was stripped of talent and crushed by coaching. Which leaves, assuming Skinner signs,

Skinner Eichel Reinhart
Olofsson Mitts Thompson
Sheary Erod Nylander
Girgs Larson Okposo

My point is, good Rochester is good, but good rochester does not equal good Sabres.

And a plan where you want 5-7 rochester guys to be what lifts the franchise after 2-3 years of suck...

Spending time defending Bott's great development strategy in Rochester, which is nothing special by league standards, while that development strategy is wildly inconsistent with young players who could have used Rochester, seems like a pretty big waste of time.

Particularly in the context of who I was responding to and their steady commentary that Murray left the team in a black hole. It's kind of pathetic as an overall defense of the gm. And I'm sure you understand that that context informs all of my posts regarding this issue.

Happy to mea culpa to Botts if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure I have never blanket said, screw Taylor and Rochester everything is crap.

 

[Jame]

Hard to burn down a house when there wasn't one to begin with. At least there's a garden now instead of a barren impact crater.

The people of St. Louis: “thanks for the free house, nice garden!”

 

[sabrebuild]

Hard to recognize the beautiful garden he planted, after he burned the house down... yea, it's a beautiful garden... will bear lots of fruit. But where do we live?

This was far better and laconic than my response.